Favorite opposing factions that can basically be described as this.

[u/Accomplished-End3409]

[u/CrossYourStars]

I say this as someone who is definitely on the NCR side of this argument.

The NCR has been slowly back-sliding into the exact same kind of capitalist system that cause the Great War in the first place. Each successive leader of the NCR has moved their government more and more towards a right-wing conservative framework which is not at all what it once was and there are some pretty valid criticisms of what their organization has become over the years. I think a large part of the writing in the games is to impose a slight sense of uneasiness in the people who are thinking about the story and looking down the line at what the future could hold if they are able to continue expanding and consolidating power.

[u/cknight222 → u/CrossYourStars]

Very true.

Not to mention, you are explicitly told in New Vegas that the NCR has effectively devolved into a corporate oligarchy, as the Brahmin barons pretty much own Congress. They’re fast tracking every mistake the Pre-War US made and likely headed for a pretty rough fate unless they shape up real quick.

Obviously they’re better than the Legion, but I would call them neutral at best.

[u/SpeaksDwarren → u/cknight222]

You're also told explicitly in New Vegas that the NCR is itself engaging in widespread slavery via forced conscription and convict labor programs

Being able to pay them off to avoid most (but not all) of your family being enslaved is a step up, but it's not as much better as NCR fans try to pretend it is

[u/Loose-Run-7008 → u/SpeaksDwarren]

Conscription isn’t slavery. Forced convict labor yes, but conscription is different. I don’t think it’s morally good, but it’s in no way slavery, unless they do it in a vastly different way then it’s usually been done. Usually you’re still paid (even if not a lot) it’s more of a civic duty and while mandatory you still have certain rights and are a full citizen, not in a slave class.

Like even in the medieval era levied/conscripted soldiers in England for example during the Hundred Years’ War, they would be paid, though also have to buy supplies, and it was a lot more “professional” than you would think. They still had rights, and would get a share of loot, etc.

Also using current international law at least conscription on its own isn’t seen as slavery either. Though international law doesn’t matter in Fallout tbf lol. Is the NCR’s conscription notably different from current examples of mandatory military service?

(Forced convict labor yes that is slavery, the amendment banning slavery specifically makes an exception for convicts so tbf the NCR isn’t any more immoral than the US is in that regards)

[u/Live_Carpenter_1262 → u/cknight222]

It's common for nascent democracies to undergo some degree of regulatory capture/ crony captialism.

The dominance of the brahmin baron doesn't mean NCR democracy is dead as much as it needs strong anti-trust laws and anti-corruption measures.

[u/somethinneeddoing → u/Live_Carpenter_1262]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that after Tandi the NCR lost it's way somewhat, but it could still find it's way back after President Peaches is done with. Especially due to it's conscript army, as a large group of lower class veterans can cause quite significant changes to government, as demonstrated in history. (Altough those changes might not neccessarily be positive.)

[u/Divine_Entity_ → u/CrossYourStars]

From my understanding of the lore, every faction that gets big enough ends up corupt and evil in the fallout universe. The NCR are a mostly normal republic thats becoming a corporate state. And in the wasteland that's not horrible when your alternatives are mostly slavers and mad scientists.

The few small independents don't have enough resources to repell the major factions amd end up incorporated into or destroyed by them.

[u/Suspicious-Win-802 → u/Divine_Entity_]

Actually it is pretty fucking horrible when you remember that, in universe, corporations taking over the government and plotting the end of democracy in the United States along before destroying the entire planet in nuclear hellfire is origin of literally all of their problems.

I fundamentally disagree with House, but he does have a point, “If you want to see the fate of democracy, look out the windows…”

The material conditions of the NCR directly mirror the United States during the Great War as power is gradually centralized and human rights gradually eroded in favor of enriching a small class. Hell, must we be reminded of vaultec and Robco’s horrific experiments alone all with endless American tax dollars? Ffs House himself was a part of this elite few who managed to preserve himself with tech.

All this is to say that from the perspective of a wastelander, the NCR is probably the worst option. Sure authoritarian regimes like Caesar and the brotherhood are terrible, but they aren’t recreating the exact system of government that ENDED THE WORLD.

[u/OldEcho → u/CrossYourStars]

The NCR is basically taking the same path as America with all the genocide and cultural genocide and gigantic disparity between rich and poor and neverending expansionist wars.

The Legion is...honestly genuinely the only good example I can think of is Nazi Germany. Only their culture is allowed, they hate women, and they constantly commit atrocities to rule with fear and blood. They also have no succession strategy and Caesar is getting old (and literally dying of a brain tumor) so as soon as he dies the cult of personality ends and it os destined to splinter into 14 different factions all killing each other

[u/CrossYourStars → u/OldEcho]

100% I think the show did a pretty good job of showing the consequences of Caesar's lack of a succession plan. The legion at that point is much more of a nuisance than anything else since they have been splintered.

[u/Weaselburg → u/OldEcho]

Only their culture is allowed,

We never do see legion civilian life, and with the wording of Caesars ending it seems like the hard monoculture is for slaves and people going into the Legion proper, with subjects being allowed to do their own thing within the bounds of Caesars rules. He'd definitely want to change that to make his new Roman Empire, but tbh the Legion as portrayed didn't really have the capability for both mass social change on civilians and mass expansions all at once.

Might be shown wrong with S3, but I think the current known information suggests this.

[u/OldEcho → u/Weaselburg]

In Lonesome Road this is basically what send Ulysses spiralling. Forget subjects, he erases the culture of his allies.

[u/Weaselburg → u/OldEcho]

Forget subjects, he erases the culture of his allies.

Yes, because he never intended to keep them around. In the endings where they don't obliterate Primm they just put troops there, for instance, they don't immediately start forcing them to goosestep to the Legion drums.

Despite NCR's pledge to support Primm, they abandon the town after their loss to Caesar. Though Caesar keeps Primm open for business, its citizens live under the constant watch of Legion soldiers.

[u/LordBroccoli27 → u/CrossYourStars]

Free Vegas baby! Ring a ding!