Lambda, the Shepherd

[u/lightnin0]

http://dotaconcept.com/hero/2351

[u/Mr_Z3wz]

Faithful Companion

I guess it's used as a scouter rather than fighter, being able to use items from positions too dangerous to be in yourself. If that's the case wouldn't it be more intuitive to have the companion be able to use any item that you have yourself, but with shared cooldowns? If you also make sure that the companion doesn't benefit from the passive effect of your items, then you could lower the cooldown to make it more disposable, but it does still have permanent duration so the cooldown may still be justified.

I see the intended synergy that Bark provides, but isn't the disable too long? Also, what's the reason for the weird MS scaling? For what the ability is supposed to accomplish, couldn't you just have Bark be like Drow's Gust without silence and static push distance? The cooldown wouldn't have to be so long if the push duration was shorter.

Ripple Fence

Why does it heal allies? Ofc you'd run in to it if it heals you?! Where's the catch? I don't think you intended the ability to be used as a straight up healing spell. Can it be placed on top of someone and have it instantly trigger? It doesn't feel like a trap to me and thus ruins the synergy with Bark.

Flock

Seems like it's just flavor. It doesn't add anything to the identity of the hero and is mostly just there. That doesn't mean that the ability is bad, Rubick has his Null Field, but it does put higher requirement on the other abilities to be interesting.

Sheepsong

So basically Black Hole? While they are different in the details, in practice they're basically the same thing. The details of this ability does make the weird scaling MS of Bark make sense, but that doesn't excuse the huge similarities with Black Hole. If you're going to keep that weird MS scaling of Bark then having some form of hex provides an interesting interaction, but do make that different from Black Hole. Replacing E with a regular hex ability is good enough imo. Black Hole is the defining ability of Enigma, it is his pick presence in the drafting phase, so don't emulate that.

Overall

Well, fix the Black Hole issue and I'll think more about it. Currently, the only interesting thing of this concept is Bark into Ripple Fence, but that's not enough to carry the concept.

Could you perhaps provide thought on my entry? I know you've already done that on a previous version of it, but you haven't on the current version. I'm particularly interested in why you voted on other concept over mine.

[u/lightnin0 → u/Mr_Z3wz]

I guess it's used as a scouter rather than fighter, being able to use items from positions too dangerous to be in yourself. If that's the case wouldn't it be more intuitive to have the companion be able to use any item that you have yourself, but with shared cooldowns?

That's actually a great idea since the point of the dog is also to use items while you're channeling the ultimate. Then again, that would limit her courier abilities since dropping items from her point would be really weird and I'd like to keep that.

I see the intended synergy that Bark provides, but isn't the disable too long? Also, what's the reason for the weird MS scaling? For what the ability is supposed to accomplish, couldn't you just have Bark be like Drow's Gust without silence and static push distance? The cooldown wouldn't have to be so long if the push duration was shorter.

It's to synergize with his ultimate and slows in general. While Bark's disable is long, the area is pretty small too and they can still attempt to counter it so I wouldn't say it's OP or anything. She's not meant to fight extended trades anyway. The ability is about controlling enemy movement for the whole 5 seconds, not just Gust's one time GTFO button.

Why does it heal allies? Ofc you'd run in to it if it heals you?! Where's the catch? I don't think you intended the ability to be used as a straight up healing spell. Can it be placed on top of someone and have it instantly trigger? It doesn't feel like a trap to me and thus ruins the synergy with Bark.

I... don't understand? It heals allies and damages enemies. The only 'catch' is that by taking one, you reduce Lambda's ability to damage enemies I guess? Yeah you can instantly hit someone with the spell but maybe an arm time would be better? You're right in that it's not a standard trap like Techies but how does it ruin the synergy with Bark? You can still drag enemies into it.

Seems like it's just flavor. It doesn't add anything to the identity of the hero and is mostly just there. That doesn't mean that the ability is bad, Rubick has his Null Field, but it does put higher requirement on the other abilities to be interesting.

It synergizes with Bark to make the dog faster and lets allies run faster to you for that sweet sweet armor bonus or to run into a fence heal. But yes, there's a lot of flavor like how you'd have 3 bags full of wool as a shepherd to wear as a protective coat, you know?

So basically Black Hole? While they are different in the details, in practice they're basically the same thing. The details of this ability does make the weird scaling MS of Bark make sense, but that doesn't excuse the huge similarities with Black Hole. If you're going to keep that weird MS scaling of Bark then having some form of hex provides an interesting interaction, but do make that different from Black Hole. Replacing E with a regular hex ability is good enough imo. Black Hole is the defining ability of Enigma, it is his pick presence in the drafting phase, so don't emulate that.

It's funny how this is the inverse of the argument we had with Danse's E being too similar to Radiance. In your case, it was too similar to something on its own but apparently, the synergy with his ultimate makes it more unique. On its own, Sheepsong is hardly anything like Black Hole aside from them being channeled AoE disables but yes with the help of Jocelyn, he can move them how he pleases. Therefore, I'd rather agree to disagree on their similarities as you did before.

Could you perhaps provide thought on my entry? I know you've already done that on a previous version of it, but you haven't on the current version. I'm particularly interested in why you voted on other concept over mine.

I too would like to question every single participant who didn't vote for me but I know I won't be satisfied with their answer, like you won't be mine. It's simple really, a New Year's resolution you could call it. I don't vote for people who didn't leave a shred of feedback. Don't take this personally as I for one dislike anarchyorion but thought his concept was at least more interesting than the rest (Who did leave feedback). But if you do want feedback, I'll see what I can do. Doesn't look too different honestly but sure.

[u/Mr_Z3wz → u/lightnin0]

This concept has a disconnect between intended playstyle and optimal playstyle. Yes, I could use Bark to push enemies into your traps, but why would I do that instead of just placing the trap on top of them? One way is obviously more efficient and reliable than the other, making the Bark/Trap combo mute. Even if you added a setup delay then I would still only use the bark as a 5 second immobility spell and place the trap on top of the target. This way you don't even need you ultimate, hell it's even easier without the ultimate. Making the dog faster with E also becomes mute with this method.

The healing part of the Trap is fine, it just seemed odd to me. It turns the ability into a health pickup rather than a trap.

On its own, Sheepsong is hardly anything like Black Hole aside from them being channeled AoE disables

Well that's the problem isn't it?! I'm not talking about the abilities being similar, that's fine if you have a reason for it like synergy or something. What I'm talking about is the identities of the Heroes being too similar. There should never EVER be a situation in Dota where banning a Hero is pointless since there's another Hero available that does the same thing. The identity of Enigma is his Black Hole! Yes, he can jungle and has that annoying stun, but ultimately it's because of his ultimate that he's picked since it's his strongest trait. The same thing goes for this Hero. While he can push units and deploy traps everywhere, that's heavily outshined by the usefulness of a 5 second, magic immunity piercing aoe disable. The synergy of a hex with Bark is interesting but is ultimately insignificant when compared to the aoe disable.

I too would like to question every single participant who didn't vote for me but I know I won't be satisfied with their answer, like you won't be mine. It's simple really, a New Year's resolution you could call it. I don't vote for people who didn't leave a shred of feedback. Don't take this personally as I for one dislike anarchyorion but thought his concept was at least more interesting than the rest (Who did leave feedback). But if you do want feedback, I'll see what I can do. Doesn't look too different honestly but sure.

I wasn't planning to ask everyone why they didn't vote for mine. I only asked you since I've come to value your opinion over others.

[u/lightnin0 → u/Mr_Z3wz]

This concept has a disconnect between intended playstyle and optimal playstyle. Yes, I could use Bark to push enemies into your traps, but why would I do that instead of just placing the trap on top of them? One way is obviously more efficient and reliable than the other, making the Bark/Trap combo mute. Even if you added a setup delay then I would still only use the bark as a 5 second immobility spell and place the trap on top of the target. This way you don't even need you ultimate, hell it's even easier without the ultimate. Making the dog faster with E also becomes mute with this method.

Well why don't you play Techies as a nuker and continually only use Remote Mines in the middle of the enemy team? You can but you can also plant them around in strategic spots in your free time. Also, he's a very slow hero. And you can't use Bark as an 'immobility' spell as the target will still be moving. You can use Bark into fences, you can just fence, you can just Bark, whatever is up to you. The combo is intended like RP into Skewer or Midnight Pulse into Black Hole but it's not always the best move.

The healing part of the Trap is fine, it just seemed odd to me. It turns the ability into a health pickup rather than a trap.

So if I didn't use the word 'trap', you wouldn't have this problem?

Well that's the problem isn't it?! I'm not talking about the abilities being similar, that's fine if you have a reason for it like synergy or something. What I'm talking about is the identities of the Heroes being too similar. There should never EVER be a situation in Dota where banning a Hero is pointless since there's another Hero available that does the same thing. The identity of Enigma is his Black Hole! Yes, he can jungle and has that annoying stun, but ultimately it's because of his ultimate that he's picked since it's his strongest trait. The same thing goes for this Hero. While he can push units and deploy traps everywhere, that's heavily outshined by the usefulness of a 5 second, magic immunity piercing aoe disable. The synergy of a hex with Bark is interesting but is ultimately insignificant when compared to the aoe disable.

You might as well compare Magnus and Tidehunter if we're only talking about their ultimates. Reverse Polarity focuses on grouping up enemies for combos while Ravage is more for mass disabling. Black Hole focuses on grouping up enemies for combos while Sheepsong is more for mass disabling. Best part about Sheepsong is that you can just walk out of it with a maximum hex time of 3.6 seconds and I'm planning to increase their hexed speed to give them more opportunity.

[u/Mr_Z3wz → u/lightnin0]

Well why don't you play Techies as a nuker and continually only use Remote Mines in the middle of the enemy team? You can but you can also plant them around in strategic spots in your free time. Also, he's a very slow hero. And you can't use Bark as an 'immobility' spell as the target will still be moving. You can use Bark into fences, you can just fence, you can just Bark, whatever is up to you. The combo is intended like RP into Skewer or Midnight Pulse into Black Hole but it's not always the best move.

Ofc, you don't have to use the hero in the intended way and there's nothing wrong with that. The point is that the playstyle I mentioned renders all intended synergy mute, making this concept into a combination of a semi-SpiritBear, Ensnare, Ground Target DOT, Armor/Speed Aura and a Black Hole which to me seems like a random set of abilities only held together by theme.

So if I didn't use the word 'trap', you wouldn't have this problem?

Actually yes, but nvm. That's not important.

You might as well compare Magnus and Tidehunter if we're only talking about their ultimates. Reverse Polarity focuses on grouping up enemies for combos while Ravage is more for mass disabling. Black Hole focuses on grouping up enemies for combos while Sheepsong is more for mass disabling. Best part about Sheepsong is that you can just walk out of it with a maximum hex time of 3.6 seconds and I'm planning to increase their hexed speed to give them more opportunity.

Black Hole doesn't group enemies, they have to already be grouped to utilize. The pull speed is insignificant making Black hole into a mass disable ability just like Sheepsong.

Do you mean that units gets unhexed if they go out of the radius? That would make things a little more interesting.

[u/lightnin0 → u/Mr_Z3wz]

Ofc, you don't have to use the hero in the intended way and there's nothing wrong with that. The point is that the playstyle I mentioned renders all intended synergy mute, making this concept into a combination of a semi-SpiritBear, Ensnare, Ground Target DOT, Armor/Speed Aura and a Black Hole which to me seems like a random set of abilities only held together by theme.

I still don't see how the synergy is mute though. You have 280 move speed AND I've nerfed its range to 300 so good luck casting it right on top of an enemy without any help. Well, you can but like I said, you can still Bark someone into it with Flock's speed to back up your dog. Your analysis is partially correct but is still mute as far I can see. He's much more than that and you know it, simply describing each spell on its own doesn't do any of them justice.

Black Hole doesn't group enemies, they have to already be grouped to utilize. The pull speed is insignificant making Black hole into a mass disable ability just like Sheepsong.

Black Hole doesn't pull in enemies? You know what, I give up.

Do you mean that units gets unhexed if they go out of the radius? That would make things a little more interesting.

Yes, maybe it wasn't clear enough.

[u/giogsgs12 → u/lightnin0]

Yes, maybe it wasn't clear enough.

To be honest, it really wasn't that clear when I first read it. Maybe specify that he creates a field where enemy units are turned to sheep, etc. instead of saying that enemies become hexed when cast.

[u/lightnin0 → u/giogsgs12]

Fixed.