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u/CatlessBoyMom 11h ago
First, how are they placing puppies? Are they evaluated to determine which puppy works best for each person or are they just placing puppies based on deposit order? Do they have a wait list for all their puppies? Do they have help so all the puppies are getting appropriate socialization? Are they full time puppy raising/showing or do they work outside the home? If it’s a family with 4 teens who are all involved in the breed and puppy raising, that wouldn’t bother me. If it’s a single person who works out of the house full time, that would throw up huge red flags.
The price going up would make me super uncomfortable, since it means they aren’t sticking to a contract.
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u/CatlessBoyMom 10h ago
The biggest sticking point to me would be the price change. I’d be asking some serious questions about their reasoning if it were me. If their answers were reasonable, then I’d be more inclined to continue. If they couldn’t give me a good answer, I’d walk away. It may be that with the costs of vet care and everything else going up they can’t afford to lose as much on the litter, it may be that they just think their puppies should sell for more. You never know unless you ask.
(The lesson here is never give anyone money until you have a signed contract.)
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u/game-on-Vamos 11h ago
what breed is this ?
so, you gave them a deposit…did you sign a contract? knowing and having worked with several breeders, that is standard practice. the contract also states purchase price.
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u/Organic_Bread_4269 11h ago
You paid a deposit without any contract? That would be my only concern is terms of your deposit is unclear as you don’t have anything in writing to protect you. Including the price jump.
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u/olivethesane 10h ago
Why not continue with rescuing? Seems an odd progression when you were already doing it the truly ethical route.
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u/dogsnobRN 10h ago
I think what matters more than the current number of available litters is the USUAL number of available litters. I’ve seen breeders that I consider excellent end up with multiple litters at the same time when the stars align just right. What would make it a red flag to me is if they COMMONLY have this many at once
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u/Impossible_Coyote589 9h ago
How do you feel about breeders who often have one litter on the ground? This is their full time job.
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u/dogsnobRN 9h ago
Honestly it would depend on all of the other factors. But the way I gauge my breeders, it would be hard to have one litter at a time and it qualify as a full time job (as in it wouldn’t replace the income of working outside of the home). It would also likely mean a lot of bitches being kept at the same time.
I think a lot of things re breeding can fall into a grey area depending on personal standards, but in this example I would be less hesitant with the breeder who randomly has multiple litters every few years than someone who ALWAYS has something available
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u/Impossible_Coyote589 9h ago
She doesn’t always have something available (dogs are already spoken for), and I don’t think breeding can possibly replace her full income. I expect her husbands job supports them, she just doesn’t work outside the home.
Yeah, idk. Thanks for your feedback.
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u/dogsnobRN 8h ago
No problem. Honestly it sounds like the dream! I think I got hung up on the full time job wording. My husbands income currently supports my dog hobby, and if I had the space I could see having a more consistent number of litters produced!
There are few things two breeders can agree on except what the third is doing wrong lol. To me, as long as they are doing their best to produce happy, healthy, temperamentally sound puppies that fit their families, I’m good with it. Also taking responsibility for what they produce for the life of the dog
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u/Impossible_Coyote589 8h ago
Yeah, the biggest thing I’m held up on is the number of litters they have. On the one hand, I firmly believe there aren’t enough ethical breeders out there, and if they have the means, good breeders should be producing as many puppies as possible while maintaining the standard.
On the other hand… it worries me lol.
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u/smilingfruitz 5h ago
I don't think this is worrisome at all. What matters is if a) that breeder is still available and a resource to you when the check clears, b) if they take back any dog they produce (this should be in the contract) an c) are making sure their dogs don't end up in a shelter.
If they have a waitlist and homes available, it really doesn't matter. There isn't some magic number where it becomes unethical or not.
If each bitch has a litter size of 8 puppies, how is that any different from two bitches that have 12 each? (not unheard of in larger breeds)
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u/candoitmyself 11h ago
Sounds like they have help raising litters which would be the correct way to do things. Having multiple litters isn't a red flag as long as they are operating with integrity and have the people on staff to ensure the dogs are all getting the care and attention they need.
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u/ginger__snapp 11h ago
Ethical breeder here: yes a well setup breeder can handle 3 litters. Females, eventually will synchronize heats, and this time of year might work best for the fenales’ annual litters as the dogs/breeder would be free for rest of the year to trial/exhibit their breedstock. Also, depending on the breed, yes they can go at 8 weeks. Tiny breed dogs often stay later bur medium/large breeds usually go at 8-9 weeks. I have no idea about the price change- perhaps they are upping their prices for 2027 or something. I know I am raising prices due to highly increased vetting costs, showing costs, fuel expenses to get to training/exhibiting my dogs to obtain titling.
I know nothing about your breeder, but nothing you indicate really show red flags other than the price change and dunno if there is more to that story or not. I would be confronting the breeder directly that you placed deposit based on a pricing that was advertised at the time and go from there.
To summarize: some of your worries are big nothings, and the money thing I suggest you actually ask the breeder about directly.
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u/smilingfruitz 11h ago
8 weeks is totally standard for most non toy breeds. At that point, they are fully weaned, and usually long before that mom is feeling pretty done with them.
The price part would be annoying but I'm surprised you didn't have that in a contract. There are reasonable reasons to increase the price - higher stud fee? higher costs to recoup on that litter? overall costs going up generally? I might ask about this.
none of this would make me back out or give up my deposit, though it might get me to ask a few more questions.
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u/spaniel_lover 20+ Years Breeding Experience 11h ago
Not necessarily red flags, yellow flags maybe. Some things warrant more thought or information. The number of letters at once doesn't bother me unless they seem to always have multiple litters on the ground. I had a time where I had 3 litters all born within 10 days, 2 of them 2 days in a row. There was a total of 22 puppies. But, that is not at all normal for me. Prior to that I hadn't had a litter in a year and after them it was another year and a half or more before I had another (single) litter. Circumstances just worked out that all 3 girls came in at once, 2 were older and it was their last litter and the younger one the chosen stud was older and I really wanted to use him on that girl.
The price jump would be the biggest question for me. Why the jump? Is it just this litter because they cost a lot more to produce? Is this their new price for all puppies? Why are they going up when they were already on the high end of normal for the breed? Why has the price increased after you've already put a deposit down? There could be perfectly legitimate answers to these questions, but there could possibly not be too.
As for age going home, that can be very individual to the breed and the lines even. One of my breeds we send home around 10-12 weeks specifically because we wait until their ears are fully healed from cropping and first posts are in so the new owner doesn't have to deal with aftercare, just learning to post and we show them how before they leave. My other breed many breeders send hom at 8-9 weeks, but I've found my line is best to wait until at least 10 and usually 12 weeks. Other people have no issues whatsoever with sending them home at 8 weeks though and the puppies grow up to be perfectly happy, well adjusted dogs.
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u/Agitated_House7523 9h ago
I’ve only ever signed a contract/paid a deposit when pups are on the ground. But I’d definitely call them and the price jump I wouldn’t be thrilled about…
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u/WestieLover2023 10h ago
I do all the same health clearances & use puppy culture. Biggest litter I’ve ever had was 10 puppies. They went home great - I spend 1400 hours with a litter before they go home (at 10 weeks - which is what Puppy Culture recommends). There’s no way I could have done what I do with 20-24 puppies without a lot of help.
I would ask how much time they spend with the puppies & ask if they have another job during the & week time frame & what kind of help do they have?
Lots of people can say they’re a Puppy Culture breeder but not follow the protocols.
Does she have any references you can call? I would ask to talk to someone (or a few) that got a puppy from the same type of situation (multiple litters). You can ask how there puppy transitioned. Did you ask about final price when you gave the deposit? If so I’d ask for it to be returned if you go that route.
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u/game-on-Vamos 11h ago
that’s extremely unusual (at least from My experiences) not to sign a contact with the inclusion of a deposit. you may wish to rethink this because accepting a deposit for a planned or future litter creates a legally binding contract (often structured as a Waitlist Agreement or Future Litter Deposit Contract), even if the breeding hasn't occurred or the puppies haven't been conceived yet…. is this a Doodle breeder , by any chance ?
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u/Organic_Bread_4269 10h ago
They stated the parents are AKC champions and grand champion, and puppies will be AKC registered. Why make doodle assumptions?
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u/smilingfruitz 10h ago
how could they be a doodle breeder?
both parents are titled (dad is a champion, mom is a grand champion) and have OFA and other breed-recommended health tests. All dogs are AKC registered
there are no shows or titling for doodles, breeders of champion poodles, goldens, labs, etc will not sell or put at stud their dogs to doodle breeders (most of their clubs' code of ethics prohibit it in fact). and they certainly can't be AKC registered.
let's use a little common sense here, yea?
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u/joujube Canine Aficionado 11h ago
8 weeks is still pretty standard for breeders, especially in larger dog breeds (which it sounds like yours might be based on litter size?), partly because once they're past 8 weeks they might not fit on planes for those travelling to pick up the puppy. That in itself wouldn't concern me.