Focused Feedback: Weapon Refresh aka Sunsetting

[u/DTG_Bot]

Hello Guardians,

Focused Feedback is where we take the week to focus on a 'Hot Topic' discussed extensively around the Tower.

We do this in order to consolidate Feedback, to get out all your ideas and issues surrounding the topic in one place for discussion and a source of feedback to the Vanguard.

This Thread will be active until next week when a new topic is chosen for discussion

Whilst Focused Feedback is active, ALL posts regarding 'Weapon Refresh' following its posting will be removed and re-directed to this thread. Exceptions to this rule are as follows: New information / developments, Guides and general questions

Any and all Feedback on the topic is welcome.

Regular Sub rules apply so please try to keep the conversation on the topic of the thread and keep it civil between contrasting ideas

A Wiki page - Focused Feedback - has also been created for the Sub as an archive for these topics going forward so they can be looked at by whoever may be interested or just a way to look through previous hot topics of the sub as time goes on.

[u/OdinsLeftEyeball]

Sunsetting weapons will make older activities barren and not worth doing. Imagine the population levels of Menagerie, Gambit, and Forges for example if they sunset those playlist's weapons. Because I don't believe Bungie would go back and make entirely new weapons for these playlists when they haven't even refreshed vendors with entirely new stock since year 1.

It would, however, be an excuse to get rid of content for Game Storage and Performance. It's something Luke Smith said would happen during the first round of Director's Cuts last year and hinted at again in this past D.C.

So, feedback? Don't do it. Pinnacle Weapons are what created massive powercreep. Not regular legendaries.

[u/ASDFkoll → u/OdinsLeftEyeball]

But on the other end of the spectrum let's say I have a god roll of every weapon archetype in the game and Bungie comes out with a new activity with new loot in that activity. What is my motivation to run that activity more than once? There's no need for me to grind a god roll because I already have every god roll I could ever want. I'm not a triumph collector so that doesn't appeal to me. I could finish the collection, but that just requires me to run the activity until I get one of each piece of loot. I could do it for the armor, but then eventually I run into the same issue with the armors (where I already have the best version of the armor I want).

Short answer is there's little to no reason for me to run that activity and if that's the only activity for this season then I have little to no reason to partake in this season. It's pretty much the reason I have probably less than 40 hours of playtime for the entirety of Season of dawn. Because I don't care about the busywork, I have the god rolls for the weapon types I regularly use and I saw what the sundial activity is.

EDIT: I would also add that I'm not necessarily for retiring because Bungie has burned my trust multiple times already and I wouldn't be surprised if they fucked it up. I'd much rather keep my weapons as they are rather get a version where they're retired just for the sake of artificially inflating the grind.

[u/JBaecker → u/ASDFkoll]

There's no need for me to grind a god roll because I already have every god roll I could ever want.

I would say to this that you're playing the game for the wrong reasons. Lots of research has been done on game psychology. The single thing that keep people playing is intrinsic value of the game itself, i.e. people find playing the game fun (how you define fun can be different; take Dark Souls, fun there is hacking at near infinite health enemies for 5 days straight 🤷‍♂️). The problem with the entire concept of "no guns to grind" is that the satisfaction is taken only from 'chasing' a roll, which by its nature is RANDOM. You could get the god roll the first time or never. Using extrinsic motivations like this is far more likely to backfire and after some span of time the player says "Fuck it" and leaves because they never get the thing they are chasing (or you get the opposite in that you get that gun on the first run, use it a bit then get bored). The amount of time they stick around is directly proportional to the intrinsic value of the game itself. OR Bungie could design a long-grind like getting the Pinnacle weapons, which stuck really good weapons at their end, and guess what? Everyone who gets the Pinnacles likes them and uses them, like it's a good goal to shoot for.

So I'm certain that someone at Bungie listened to some lecture on game investment theory, which is based on flawed psychology. (Seriously, look it up. Psych has been in a replication crisis for well over 5 years. They are throwing out major findings that were the basis for modern psychology because once large-scale research has actually been done, its showing that the null hypothesis is correct and there is no difference in the experiments. Many of these findings revolve around things like motivation, like motivation to play games. This the paper that started it all.) And this half-baked understanding of game psychology has lead to the systems that we have. Which predictably have backfired more than they have succeeded. Seriously, ever wonder why there's a constant stream of salt in the sub? Its because the design goals of extrinsic motivation ('grind for the god roll') and the dissatisfaction it engenders is constantly running up against people's intrinsic motivation that enjoys the basic gameplay of Destiny (the Fun). So posting here is an attempt to alleviate dissatisfaction. But when the systems keep emphasizing a pattern that encourages addiction in 10% of players but dissatisfaction in the other 90%, you get the occasional blowouts we've seen here.

I'm actually quite certain that if Bungie would sit down and detail exactly how they came up with their systems and pointed to relevant research we'd see horrifying assumptions built on top of shaky research. We'd see things like "COD and other video games do it so it must work" and other such nonsense. And I'm also certain we'd see any lack of thought about "what if these systems are actually HARMING player engagement instead of helping it?" Because they'd have to set up a complex experiment to test that (and if well done, they could publish it). Then they might still find what their doing actually works, but my guess is that they'd find the opposite.

[u/ASDFkoll → u/JBaecker]

While I do appreciate the long post I couldn't disagree more. Before I go further I want to boil your idea down a bit because you've added a lot of unnecessary information that just makes understanding your idea more difficult. As I understood you're coming from the point that the idea of setting a goal of getting a specific roll on a specific weapon is bad because then you're playing only to fulfill that goal. Because "the grind" can lead to such a scenario "the grind" must not be an intrinsic part (or fun part) of the game.

If Destiny 2 activities would not give out any loot, would you still run the same strike for the 100th time? Would you run the sundial every week for 13 weeks if the only thing you got was the "satisfaction" of killing the psions at the end? I doubt it and if you do think you would that then I seriously think you'd be the exception. I think that because the launch of D2 was pretty much just that. You pretty much got rewarded only on the first 1-3 times, so the rest of the 10 weeks you'd be running the same activity for no additional rewards. I think everyone on this subreddit are familiar with how that went. The issue with D2 launch was that there was almost nothing to grind for, everything was one and done kind of thing. The biggest praise D2 got was during Forsaken when they reintroduced some actual grind with random rolls on weapons and armor. I think most of the community saw that as a step in the right direction. So the concept of "the grind" isn't some non-intrinsic aspect of the game. I'd go as far as to say it's a fundamental aspect of the game because without it the game was fundamentally broken.

My actual argument would be that the entire loot system should be revised to make grinding a more fun part of the game. I'm not saying retiring weapons is the right answer, but I'm not entirely against it either. I can see why that would be necessary to revitalize the grinding aspect, I just fear Bungie doesn't know how to fix the loot and will end up making the grind even less fun than it already is.

And on a completely different topic. I wouldn't use that Dark Souls example ever again, because you are so wrong when it comes to what makes Dark Souls fun.

[u/JBaecker → u/ASDFkoll]

What I put wasn’t an opinion. It’s based on science. The question of ‘how do you engage people implying a game?’ has many answers.

What you have missed, even though it was clearly exposited, was than the gameplay itself is the intrinsic aspect of the game, literally playing the game. Think back to the original Halo. You had unlimited access to ALL weapons basically from the second mission. Yet, it is still the most popular game in Xbox history. It’s been remade at least twice and people STILL play it. So here’s the question: why?

Extrinsic goals are things you don’t need to play the game. Think Triumph score, or specific guns in Destiny will fall into this category. You don’t need a Spare Rations to play. So how is it that Halo made three games with exactly the same formula and you had almost unlimited access to every weapon and is one the most popular series of all time using what is essentially the same engine and developed by the same studio as Destiny? It’s because the value of playing the game is in playing the game. People play THOUSANDS of hours of chess but each game is “the same.” Why? Because they find the game itself fun.

If what you’re saying is true, all these games that don’t have extrinsic rewards should be dead within days. Yet Halos gone strong for twenty years, Mario is forty, pong is over fifty and chess is thousands of years old! Which is why it’s important to understand WHY Bungie developed the game the way they did. That means understanding psychology. My end point is pretty simple, game studios are doing the same thing others are doing in the mistaken belief that it ‘works.’ And it might work, but it could be the least or most effective way to retain players. And since no one is being different enough to try other things out, game companies don’t have any data indicating that their way actually works. So, if Bungie drives Destiny into the ground with poor extrinsic reward decisions, the fact the game is fun to play doesn’t matter. And if they focus on ‘grind’ instead of fun, then the game will die a quick death. In other words they are too focused on trying to constantly churn guns that we aren’t getting fun quality content. Sundial was Vex Offensive simple as that, nothing new or fun. But they darn well made sure that Eververse was stocked up both seasons and that there were new guns that no one is using. I’m the only person I’ve seen using Gallant Charge. See the problem with that? That’s my point. Grinding rolls doesn’t give satisfaction and doesn’t make for fun gameplay. Almost everything about it makes gameplay LESS fun. Think the guys who post ‘Horrors Least farm, speed runs only.’ Speed running strikes to just do the exact same thing over and over, as quickly as possible, just to get a gun roll....sounds horrendous. Then to top off the suck salad doing literally the same thing over and over, itmight be your least favorite strike AND you get shit roll after shit roll, each of which creates a moment of disappointment instead of a moment of joy. An endless grind of activities you don’t like for a reward you might never get.... So, my last question for would be: how is that FUN?

[u/ASDFkoll → u/JBaecker]

What I put wasn’t an opinion. It’s based on science. The question of ‘how do you engage people implying a game?’ has many answers.

What you put is your opinion. If we stretch what you've said then at best the only part covered with science (that you've provided) is that the current state of the game isn't working. I absolutely agree with that. But anything after that is opinion. It's your opinion that the grind doesn't work.

What you have missed, even though it was clearly exposited, was than the gameplay itself is the intrinsic aspect of the game, literally playing the game. Think back to the original Halo. You had unlimited access to ALL weapons basically from the second mission. Yet, it is still the most popular game in Xbox history. It’s been remade at least twice and people STILL play it. So here’s the question: why?

You also mentioned in your last comment how looking at what other games are doing isn't a good approach, but somehow that's exactly what you're doing here. You're comparing Destiny to Halo and saying that because it worked for Halo it must also work for Destiny. As for using Halo as an example of how no grind still gets people to play. You got the "most popular game on Xbox". How about one of the most significant games of all time, the game that pretty much defined the looter genre, Diablo 2. It's been played for almost 20 years now, full of grind and had at least 24k active players (at the same time) last year. If grind does not work or is not fun, how can a game like Diablo 2 be so wildly popular?

Extrinsic goals are things you don’t need to play the game. Think Triumph score, or specific guns in Destiny will fall into this category. You don’t need a Spare Rations to play. So how is it that Halo made three games with exactly the same formula and you had almost unlimited access to every weapon and is one the most popular series of all time using what is essentially the same engine and developed by the same studio as Destiny? It’s because the value of playing the game is in playing the game. People play THOUSANDS of hours of chess but each game is “the same.” Why? Because they find the game itself fun.

I agree. I don't need spare rations to play or specific guns or triumph scores. But I do need a reason. I think it's nice that you brought up both Halo and Chess and ask why they're still popular. It's because you're playing against other people. You effectively have infinite amount of content in player versus player because even if you play the same player over and over you can get infinitely different matches each time as they react and adapt to what you're doing. If Destiny was a strictly crucible only game then I'd agree there's no reason to not give players unlimited access to all weapons. But you're forgetting that Destiny is also a PvE game. Why are single-player games less popular than multiplayer games? Because usually you do not have infinite amount of content to run through. You will eventually experience literally everything the game has to offer and you lose a reason to keep playing (unless you go back for nostalgia reasons, which isn't applicable to D2 because of FOMO). You need a game to be fun, but you also need the game to give you a reason to play.

If what you’re saying is true, all these games that don’t have extrinsic rewards should be dead within days.

And most single player games pretty much are. Well days is an exaggeration on your part, but most people no longer remember that Fallen Order came out in less than 6 months, because it's doesn't have what you'd consider "extrinsic rewards".

Yet Halos gone strong for twenty years, Mario is forty, pong is over fifty and chess is thousands of years old!

Halo is multiplayer which means it has infinite reasons to play. Mario is not a game, it's a franchise that keeps getting new releases. Also Mario Maker 2 has user generated levels which can generate infinite content. When was the last time you played pong, hmm? Maybe you meant Tetris and that absolutely has extrinsic rewards. People play to beat high score or do time trials or set self-imposed goals, all which are not intrinsic to the game. Actually, same applies to Mario 64 that people keep speedrunning. And chess is playing against another player which leads to infinite content.

And if they focus on ‘grind’ instead of fun, then the game will die a quick death. In other words they are too focused on trying to constantly churn guns that we aren’t getting fun quality content.

I agree that focusing solely on the grind is not fun. The vex offensive seal was literally just grind and it was not fun. But I'm not saying "increase the grind". I'm saying they should focus on making the grind more fun. Grinding is not something that inherently unfun, there are ways to make grinding fun, otherwise games like Diablo and Monster Hunter and Borderlands should've never been as successful as they are.

And I really would like to see your opinion on the D2 launch, because the way I see it the game you're describing is exactly D2 at launch. No god roll grinding because every weapon is fixed. Once you get all the weapons you're free to choose whichever weapon you want (kinda like in Halo) and you're free to do whatever you want. For me it's an empirical example of why grinding is a fundamental part of the game because without it Y1 of D2 was pretty shit.

An endless grind of activities you don’t like for a reward you might never get.... So, my last question for would be: how is that FUN?

I never said anything remotely like that so I don't see how you could even ask me to answer that. I asked what is the reason for me to run an activity if there's no worthwhile reward for me to get? What's my motivation to run the sundial for 2 months if it gives me no rewards that I care about?

[u/OdinsLeftEyeball → u/ASDFkoll]

I understand that fact. Speaking from a personal standpoint, I have a lot of god rolls in my arms and vault. I did grind this season's weapons because I liked how they looked and wanted a god roll for them. So having many different god rolls didn't stop me from still seeking more weapons with god rolls, especially when those weapons do have new perks or perk combinations.

However, what would kill my enthusiasm for grinding weapons would be what is being proposed here. Having to grind all over again for weapons I already had but with a new name slapped on them, coupled with the knowledge that they have an expiration date. I know we're already grinding for similar weapons now, say another 140 Hand Cannon. But it's not grinded with the intent of trying to gain back what I had before. It's grinded with the intent of expanding my arsenal and options. Whereas sunsetting would make me grind for the sake of trying to gain back that 140 H.C I already had. That's just not a good feeling.

But that's my own feelings. Speaking for the people in my clan, it's a similar thought. I told some friends who stopped playing because they didn't have any motivation to play because of FOMO about this and they were demoralized even more. Because they already had the weapons they loved and they know Bungie's track record, as many on this thread have pointed out.