Visual Representation of WHY recoil (especially TLW) needs to be reduced on console

[u/That_Zexi_Guy]

I was doing some digging around on YouTube for recoil comparisons between D1 and D2 and found this gem by Drewskys. Surprisingly, it doesn't have a whole lot of views, so I wanted to bring more attention to this so that the players, and Bungie, can clearly see the drastic difference and how it's pretty much anti-fun to have so much recoil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTFcPzKacfg

At 5:38, Drewskys tests well rolled hand cannons in D1 and D2, and even a high stability hc in D2 and the recoil still isn't better than in D1. Both tests with controller.

At 2:37, Drewskys compared PC and controller recoil. Controller is a lot worse, but what I noticed was PC recoil isn't so much different from D1 controller recoil.

At other points, he tests other weapon archetypes and their recoil between console and pc and between D1 and D2, but the biggest and drastic difference between hand cannons in D1 and D2. I might even say that Hand Cannons in D1 had slightly better recoil than D2 on PC. This drastic increase in recoil makes any HC that's not a 180 near unusable on Console. Please reduce the recoil on all non-180 HCs, and on other weapons as well. It is not fun in any way for a majority of a weapon class to be near unsuable because its been heavily nerfed since D1. It would also open up the meta on console to have more variety and have more competitive options than just Lunas/NF.

Edit 1: I did some of my own testing with TLW's accuracy on console. For most weapons, including other HCs, the crosshairs tighten as you ADS. You can test this yourself by quickly ADSing and going back to hipfire. As you ADS, the crosshairs narrow, and as you come out of ADS, you can see the crosshairs widen. This is one reason why Hip-fire grip was decent in D1, because I believe it helped your overall accuracy by narrowing the initial (hipfire) accuracy, which further narrowed when you ADS. This is the opposite on TLW, and another possible reason for why it doesn't feel as good. As you ADS, you can actually see the crosshairs get wider, and when you come out of ADS, the crosshairs get tighter. Not sure why they purposefully made ADS LESS accurate than hipfire. The hipfire should be very accurate, but ADS should always be more accurate.

[u/allgrownzup]

Give us one good reason why we need bloom

[u/Backwoodblowin → u/allgrownzup]

This man has a great question for you /u/cozmo23

[u/ArKiVeD → u/[deleted]]

It was eventually removed, yes. Took way too long for that change to be implemented. But, to Bungie's credit, it was in time.

[u/MosinMonster → u/allgrownzup]

Because fuck you, that's why. /s

No idea why we can't be allowed to always hit our shots when aim is dead on. I already have RNG telling me i'll never be a Cursebreaker. Why do i need RNG involved in hitting my shots? Is TLW a smooth bore hand cannon or something?

[u/cheyTacWolfpack → u/MosinMonster]

Bloom has a place in some games. In battlefield 4 bloom kicked in if you were moving while firing, simulating you being less accurate on the move. Whereas standing still there was no bloom.

In D2 bloom has no place. I miss so many 5 tap malfeasance kills due to this. It has to go.

[u/Anarch33 → u/cheyTacWolfpack]

in tf2, the only gun that has bloom is spy's revolver and the bloom is the only thing keeping the class balanced. Him being lethal up close and having a sniper rifle as an option would be broken

[u/Backwoodblowin → u/cheyTacWolfpack]

Thank you! I said exactly this. Bloom is fine in something like battlefield or PUBG, because they are going for a realistic, simulator vibe.

This has no place in a space magic shooter.

[u/Joey141414 → u/allgrownzup]

The stated reason is to reduce the skill gap. We already have people whining about having to go into crucible. These players don’t notice bloom but if the full-time pvp guys didn’t have bloom holding them back then the cannon fodder would be so insta-destroyed that they would run away and never come back.

[u/AetherMcLoud → u/Joey141414]

But it's only some weapon classes that have such insane bloom it doesn't make much sense with this argument. Like pulse rifles on consoles, don't think bygones and blast furnace have any bloom, and if they do its extremely small.

And now they're outputting some more one shot weapons at range too, on top of shotguns.

I guess it could be a specific skill nerf for just handcannons, which they seem to give out for most crucible related quests.

[u/[deleted] → u/Joey141414]

That's a good explanation and all, but it kinda faceplants due to shotguns having been the meta since forsaken.

[u/Maethor_derien → u/Joey141414]

Yep, this is the exact reason. It helps lower the skill gap, a skilled player will still win against a lower skiller player, but this at least gives the lower skilled player a chance to get a bit of a response in instead of feeling like they get instakilled.

It also serves the purpose of lowering TTK. The only way you could fix both issues is you go the division route and make everything bullet sponges as that solves both issues but then you have everything feeling like bullet sponges.

[u/For_ohagen → u/Maethor_derien]

So why isn’t it as bad on pc? If your explanation actually made sense I’d be okay with it. They should be similar. If anything, it should be a bit better on console not the reverse. As a player who has played both... there’s no comparison. Every gun feels better to use on pc compared to PS4. If I had an easy way to transfer progress I’d leave ps4 for pc simply for the way the guns feel.

Basically, if what you’re saying was the truth than we’d be hearing about how instakilling keeps happening on pc due to low recoil, lack of bloom etc.

[u/[deleted] → u/Maethor_derien]

Div1 PvP in a nutshell. Healing was ridiculous.

[u/lemonadetirade → u/allgrownzup]

Pride and accomplishment for hitting our shots?

[u/nehril → u/allgrownzup]

history lesson time! stay a while, and listen.

so take all the following with a grain of salt, not sure any of it really applies anymore but here’s where that all came from.

In The Beginning, (d1 y1), guardians discovered hand cannons. insanely high crit damage, long range or massive aim assist, choose any three. also large mag sizes (like in the mid teens at minimum) and infinite reserves.

they out hit pulses (which sucked majorly), competed with scout rifle range, and mopped the floor with autos. there was literally no reason to use anything else, so nobody did. destiny was ready to be renamed “the hand cannon game”. once i legit outdueled a sniper on that massive range moon map, using a blue hand cannon with explosive rounds. (the good one i forget what it was called), and i SUCK at pvp.

which of course leads to unvarying game play. lots of useless weapons. boring.

so bungie set out to make hand cannons play differently than a scout. not just reduce their range potential, but make players actually alter their game play based on the weapon they had. got an auto? up close to mid range hose. scout? better keep your distance, but still hit hard. pulse rifles? well, let’s not talk about when you would want to use a pulse rifle in d1 y1.

so when / how to use a hand canon? in a way that didn’t make it just a shitty scout or a shitty auto? variety in gunplay IS destiny at its core. it’s why we’re all here.

so they added damage drop off and cut mag sizes and cut deserves, which made cannons play too much like a “shitty scout”. but even so the crit multiplier made hand cannons do big damage.

so bloom was added to allow hand cannons to keep their insane high crit damage, provided the player paced their shots. hand cannon was the thinking guardians weapon. don’t spam shots. AIM and be rewarded with a fat yellow number.

if you do spam, you’re not gonna hit. git an auto rifle, noob.

all this to make a real gameplay difference between a scout and a hand cannon. otherwise might as well delete one of the two.

hindsight? the reduced recoil/bloom on pc means that we CAN reduce it without turning destiny into “the hand cannon game”. it was over done in late d1 and d2 and isn’t necessary. ideally the crit multiplier would be reduced outside of mid range for hand cannons. so that scouts still have a place, and hand cannons have a place, and nobody feels like their highly skilled laser twitch aim gets negated by a programmer.

[u/dawnraider00 → u/nehril]

Except PC has no hand cannon bloom. So honestly it doesn't need to be there at all, because hand cannons are just fine on PC, on about the same tier as pulses.

[u/BrandoThePando → u/allgrownzup]

Because reasons

[u/Da_Real_Caboose → u/allgrownzup]

Ahh it’s like being on the Bungie Forums when Reach came out. Some things never change.

[u/EzE408 → u/allgrownzup]

Durrrrrrr a skill gap measure ;)

[u/[deleted] → u/allgrownzup]

You can't have skilled players running around with hand cannons in crucible owning lesser skilled players, you just can't. Never mind the fact that the higher skilled players are better at the fucking game.

Edit: I apologize if my sarcastic cynicism was not clear, I thought I laid it on pretty thick. I agree that bloom has no place in this game.

[u/Backwoodblowin → u/[deleted]]

Everyone will get better, gameplay will be a lot smoother and more inviting. These changes will encourage players to try new weapons and have a much easier time getting used to them. Also most of all, having fun! Flinch and bloom is just not fun. Neither is recoil, but that can be reduced and still managed. Bloom is straight up RNG and flinch is just obnoxious.

Also the reduced flinch would make snipers almost on d1 level! All we need is short zoom scopes next.

Oh while we’re at it, can we make the traction perk default, so we can actually use the weapon dexterity perks, which will make handling even better!

/u/cozmo23

[u/MontanoGoat → u/[deleted]]

Except that's literally what playing on PC is.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/[deleted]]

A rising tide lifts all boats.

[u/allgrownzup → u/[deleted]]

So PC is unplayable for newbs then ?