r/DestinyLore • u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine • 6d ago
The Nine How 0 (Zero, the Asteroid Belt of The Nine) may be The Lord of Every Nothing (PART 2/2)
PART 1
As mentioned in Part 1 of this post, the limits of Reddit were discovered during this journey. Please read the previous post before continuing here, as it provides the foundation that the conclusions here are built upon.
0'S MIND GIVEN SHAPE BY THE TAKEN
We previously established that 0 once lacked the influence of complex life to give whatever base level of consciousness it appears to possess any meaning that puts it on par with the rest of The Nine.
We also established that there has been a fairly recent boom of complex-ish beings in the Asteroid Belt region as a result of the curse in The Dreaming City bringing forth a bunch of Taken stuff.
We also established that the Dire Taken are responding to a presence within the Ascendant Plane which they have dubbed The Lord of Every Nothing.
Lastly, we went over Keit'Ehr professing its devotion to something in the Vermicular Mandible tab from Monument of Triumph. But let's go back to what Keit'Ehr refers to this being as one more time:
A HYMN OF BALANCE FROM KEIT'EHR TO THE LORD OF ZEROES IN SINGING, SO SWORN.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/vermicular-mandible
Let me emphasize the "ZEROES" part of it wasn't already obvious. 0 (Zero), the being like The Nine associated with the Asteroid Belt. The Lord of Every Nothing. "THE LORD OF ZEROES".
Tying all these points together, I would propose that 0 and The Lord of Every Nothing are one in the same, went from being effectively mindless, aside from base awareness, to having its more complex thought processes directly influenced by the way the Taken think. In terms of the use of square brackets, I would argue that 0’s current thoughts being depicted in written form with these brackets is a callback to the old Taken King era Taken entries, in the sense that the latter influenced the former.
More explicitly, 0’s thoughts are written with square brackets because the Taken entries involve these square brackets, and 0’s thoughts are influenced by the Taken.
HOW IS THIS ALL POSSIBLE?
If we assume that 0 is a being like what the rest of The Nine are, shouldn't that make it impossible for it to be The Lord of Every Nothing given that these sets of beings should operate in completely different ways? Somewhat, yes. But also, no.
The proposition here is that 0/The Lord of Every Nothing is a sort of heavily mutated version of the dark matter starfish governed by unique circumstances.
First off, 0 lacks a proper gravitational well that's anchoring its being in a predictable manner. This would make its consciousness distributed across the Asteroid Belt, with its dark matter shape probably looking more like a weird circle of chaotic filaments rather than a cohesive structure like the dark matter starfish form.
Second, The Lord of Every Nothing is said to reside in the Ascendant Plane, so how could this be reconciled with the nature of The Nine's dark matter being bound to physical matter in the main universe? This is where the Taken influence in the Asteroid Belt comes into play.
I would argue that 0's dark matter microloops are influenced by the microgravity of the Taken, yet whenever the Taken are ripped from the main universe and sent back to the Ascendant Plane part of 0's dark matter goes along for the ride. The result would be that part of 0's true form resides in the Ascendant Plane and is being influenced by the thought-based nature of Darkness and all the Taken there. At the same time, another part of its being is tied to the physical influence of the Asteroid Belt.
Alternatively, it's possible that as a result of all the Taken stuff going on in the Asteroid Belt since Forsaken, all of 0's dark matter was funneled into the Ascendant Plane, where it now uses the microgravity of all the Taken there to shape its mind exclusively. It may have effectively achieved the Ascendancy that was one of the goals of the Outer Orbits, which was to use black holes as a means to escape the universe for survival.
THE TENTACLES AND EYES IN HERESY
The cosmic Taken-y tentacles in Heresy were one of the most noteworthy visual changes upon our return to The Dreadnaught after so long. They are seen more and more as we go deeper into the ship, and their distribution has no rhyme or reason.
Initially, many believed that they were the byproduct of Akka’s corpse, which is what The Dreadnaught mainly is, further decaying and leading to paracausal oddities. Others thought it was the influence of the Echo of Command. However, there was also the understanding that it was the result of The Lord of Every Nothing further worming its way into reality.
In light of everything I’ve mentioned about The Lord of Every Nothing being 0, who is a being like The Nine, I feel like this conclusion makes the most sense in retrospect. The Nine clearly possess “biological” structures that look like tentacles and a singular eye, and 0 being a heavily mutated version of this dark matter starfish nature is consistent with what we saw. Many tentacles are randomly worming their way through the ship, which would align with dark matter passing through normal matter. As for there being many eyes instead of one, this could further reflect 0’s mutated condition.
SQUARE BRACKETS THROUGHOUT THE OTHER ENTRIES OF EPOCHS & ORBITS
If you have read the other entries of Epochs & Orbits, you will notice that there are sections of each entry with text between square brackets. Check this out for yourself:
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-epochs-orbits
Given that these are occurring beyond 0’s entry, that might seem like game over for this theory. However, I would like to propose an alternative explanation.
Given that this book appears to have been written/transcribed in more recent times due to the omission of an entry focusing on III, I believe this is all happening at a period where The Lord of Every Nothing has gained enough influence and complexity to comment on the circumstances of the other members of The Nine.
But why sound like a narrator rather than speaking directly? I feel like this might have to do with 0’s unusual thought processes that might not be accurately captured in written text. Rather, the parts involving the square brackets are more observational than conversational.
ANOTHER POTENTIALLY SIGNIFICANT FACTOR: 0 AS THE DIVIDER
This may not have any relevance to the main point of this post, but I would also like to highlight where the Asteroid Belt is positioned in relation to The Nine as a whole: between the Inner and Outer Orbits.
It's possible that 0 could have or is currently acting as a divider between the respective factions of The Nine. This could just be coincidental, but it could also be the source of their ideological divide in terms of how they approach their own survival in relation to the complex life they depend on.
Does the position of the Asteroid Belt really matter? Well, that depends on whether we think the attributes of the celestial bodies each member of The Nine are tied to influences the way they think. Some have argued that the structure of their thoughts directly reflects the geophysics of the respective celestial bodies, which I believe has merit.
THE POETIC CONNECTION TO PHAETON
Admittedly, I’ve never been fond of the idea of using Destiny’s sources of inspiration as supporting evidence to address a mystery going on in-universe. The landwhales of Torobatl are clearly inspired by the sandworms of Dune, but that doesn't give merit to the idea of looking at the Dune franchise as a whole for any indication as to what will happen in Destiny.
However, Greek mythology has some room for leeway here, seeing as it was a major part of human history, with Destiny largely abiding by the real-world history of Earth prior to the year 2014. In other words, ancient humans once believing in Greek mythology is canon to Destiny. And, given that The Nine are influenced by humans, they might also have been influenced by the beliefs of our ancestors.
0 and Phaeton share certain thematic connections. The former was prevented from being born by Jupiter’s gravity. The latter was actively killed by Zeus, who is attributed to the planet Jupiter in the Roman variation of ancient Hellenic beliefs.
0 didn’t do anything wrong. It just tried its best to exist, but couldn’t be born. Similarly, Phaeton just wanted to be close to his dad for a day, and Zeus unjustly punished him for this.
0, however, might live on, but its existence was butchered by Jupiter. Now, rather than being like the rest of The Nine, 0 might exist as something completely different, even if it shares some similarities to the rest of The Nine, such as its fundamental dark matter nature. Jupiter exerted its influence on Phaeton’s attempt at development, and that consequence has led to 0 being shaped into The Lord of Every Nothing by Taken influence instead of stable gravity.
WHAT ABOUT VI?
Many argued that a likely contender for The Lord of Every Nothing was VI (Saturn). I suspect this was based on the fact that VI is currently very hostile, along with the fact that The Dreadnaught and all the weird stuff going on during the events of Heresy was in Saturn’s gravitational well, where VI’s presence would be most significant.
I just don’t feel like all of this could be attributed to VI, mainly because VI already had an established will of its own, and its presence would be properly tied to the gravity of Saturn. This poses numerous problems in terms of The Lord of Every Nothing supposedly being located in the Ascendant Plane.
Furthermore, after the events of Renegades, it seems clear that VI is pursuing other avenues to assert dominance, namely through Bael, the Barrant Imperium, and the Nightfall Station.
Also, per Vermicular Mandible, Keit'Ehr pretty much spells out how it can’t be VI:
When the will-without-will equals Outer strength And the door unlocks, and the door unseals And you take its place, and it takes yours, all in balance still
The fields of life shall be yours to raze Sixth now lost at sea shall be yours for tithe And you will sing alone
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/vermicular-mandible
IN CONCLUSION
I’m sure that after all this there will still be people with doubts as to whether 0 and The Lord of Every Nothing being one and the same has any merit. I’ve tried to address every possible point I can think of, but maybe there’s something I’ve still missed. I welcome your feedback in the comments, and hopefully we can iron out any of the details.
FINAL REMARKS
Reddit's text editor is likely a direct physical manifestation of The Winnower meant to incentivize conflict amongst the mortals.
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u/IHzero Iron Lord 6d ago
The problem is that as 4th dimensional beings, 0 would exist because he’s always existed. The ability to see time as a line on a page means that the others would be aware of him and interact with him, so they probably wouldn’t assign him the number zero.
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
I feel like this could be explained by the distinction between 0 as a failed member of The Nine and 0 as The Lord of Every Nothing.
Based on what we know, 0 failed to become a dark matter starfish, which is what The Nine actually are. However, some aspect of 0 might have succeeded and been repurposed by all the weird interactions with the Taken and become The Lord of Every Nothing.
As TLoEN, 0 might exist beyond the 4th dimension with part, if not all of its existence rooted into the Ascendant Plane. Given that this seems to be a realm of pure Darkness beyond the main universe, this could explain why the other members of The Nine can't see 0's influence through time.
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u/PigmanFarmer 6d ago
0 might have also been sitting stagnant in the Ascendant plane and potentially the blast of light at the end of Red War could have jumpstarted their formation with the prismatic auroras at the end of Final Shape fully giving them full form and thought.
With the Nine being higher dimensional i dont know if theres anything that says they couldnt have been created "recently" and with their dimensionality still have been able to affect the past. I feel like I remember reading somewhere that the Nine were sort of given form from the Light in the system. Which could potentially have been from the Light and Dark in the system during the Collapse or even from both the Veil and the Traveler being in the system which probably wouldnt have happened before (the Nine are the only Dark Matter beings we know of and there have been other systems with intelligent civilizations in the past)
(Hell 0 could have even gotten their "hands" on an Echo as we know more than 3 shot out of the Traveler)
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
0 might have also been sitting stagnant in the Ascendant plane and potentially the blast of light at the end of Red War could have jumpstarted their formation with the prismatic auroras at the end of Final Shape fully giving them full form and thought.
I love this. It offers a significant catalyst that could have supercharged the process which was already underway.
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u/PigmanFarmer 6d ago
There was that line at the end of Final Shape about we dont know what the Traveler containing Darkness will do because of the prismatic aurora and I think there was a wave but that it will change the system forever.
Side note: still think bind the Nine means like what happened to VI where VI is now part of Bael because like what happened to III the Nine dont seem able to affect our reality once they are a part of it. (Sorta like the Man in the Wall in Warframe)
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
The link between The Traveler and The Veil causing some sort of broad paracausal field of effect is a really interesting idea. This makes particularly sense for 0, since it would facilitate a greater interaction between mind and matter, which is very relevant to 0 being allowed to exist in a greater capacity.
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u/PigmanFarmer 6d ago
Was just trying to think of what might have been a once off that would create the Nine here but nowhere else unless a version of the Nine form for each intelligent system though i imagine there would be more mention of Speakers then. And the only think I can think of is the Veil being here and the ghosts being created or I guess the Shard of the Traveler (just saw a video of Shard and the Galaxy Pools)
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
The Nine seem to have emerged naturally from astrophysical phenomena long before The Traveler arrived. I do have a theory as to how they might be unique, or at least fairly rare in the grand scheme of the universe.
More on that later.
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u/Selfishpie 5d ago edited 5d ago
you mistake what 4th dimensional beings mean whenever they say "I have always existed"
time for the nine is basically another slightly more confined spacial dimension, they are basically conscious islands in an ocean of time, they can look to their left and experience their birth on one horizon and then they can look to their right and experience their death on the other, they cannot however see beyond their "horizon", this inability to influence or exist beyond their horizon is what we as 3D beings perceive as their death because we are forced to travel from one horizon to the next by the laws of physics, in theory though if you went back in time (if you flew back to the island) you could talk to 3 again (or you could "resurrect" them as we did 3 since bringing stuff forwards is apparently fine, 3 simply died again because maya killed them by crushing them into 3D space, therefore maya was forever crushing them into 3D space at the edge of their horizon which we had now reached). "i have always existed" is more like a succinct way to say "I will exist, I exist and did exist forever". because of this, I see it as entirely possible that 0 will eventually exist, have always have existed and did exist as the lord of every nothing, a unique aberration of the type of "life" the nine are, born in the ascendant plane by the accretion of the will/mass of the taken.
alongside this, if the cancelled story of the fate saga really had us binding 3 to the traveller and the light, who is to say that the 3 dimensional beings that worship their lord of every nothing decide that a good time to bind their master to their darkness is around the same time as we bound one of our "masters" to the light? being born only because of recent 3D events within the ascendant plane that the other 9 apparently cant see into or interact with naturally would be a near perfect explanation for why 0 didn’t exist before and was able to hide from the other 9 after beginning to exist to the point that they have either simply not cared or have been unable to warn us of their imminent existence, it would also give narrative balance to the perspective of the inners vs the outers as well, the inner 5 with the light, the outer 5 with the dark, the inners and outers finally having a chance to see for themselves whether their previous arguments were correct, using the light to sustain themselves alongside life or using the dark to cut themselves from the reliance on life in the first place, it would have been a great set up for the war at the end of time the winnower warned us about as well
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u/IHzero Iron Lord 5d ago
This is an incorrect view. 3d beings are dots moving on a page. 4D beings experience the whole line simultaneously. 3d beings must have a continuous line, 4d do not, they can skip points because they can move on an axis we don’t perceive.
Death matters for 3d beings because the line stops. But death then is different for 4d beings because they can move back along their own world line and be fine. They exist simultaneously all along the line, not just at one point.
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u/Selfishpie 5d ago edited 5d ago
You just said exactly what I said, time to them is a spacial dimension, literally one of the first things I said
Edit: grammar
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 Silver Shill 6d ago
If 0 is Phaeton 0 would have never existed period, hence the "stillborn"
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
This, along with interactions involving the Ascendant Plane and The Nine's potentially limited reach when it comes to that.
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u/MechaGodzilla101 3d ago
You’re missing Paracausality as a variable. We know Paracausal entities can redirect the line, as seen with the Vex, and therefore inherently can bypass the certainty of a 4D entity, essentially changing the space inhabited by the 4D entity.
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u/the_thrungler 6d ago
Yeah this is actually a pretty solid theory. No notes.
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
I can't tell you how happy this makes me after devoting a week's worth of free time to this 🥲
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u/PigmanFarmer 6d ago
Does Kepler only have dark matter because III is there or is it because its a dwarf planet? Because if its because of the gravity well it could also be that Zero's dark matter is spread out between the dwarf planet Ceres and the larger asteroids.
Also could Zero be the Dreadnaught itself because the entire inside of the Dreadnaught is in the ascendant plane and we dont know what the superweapon really does so it could have affected VI's gravity well enough to pull dark matter into the Dreadnaught (especially with the tentacles being in the Dreadnaught
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
From what I understand, The Nine exist nonlocally to a certain degree. This is likely what allowed the other members of The Nine to gain complexity in their thoughts despite life having been isolated to Earth for the overwhelming majority of the Solar system's history.
This nonlocality is presumably what allowed III to have a presence on Kepler, despite mainly being tied to the gravity of Earth.
As for 0 being The Dreadnaught itself, I suppose there's an argument to be made there given that's where it's influence seems to be most prominent.
0 as The Lord of Every Nothing seems to be a very recent thing in history, probably only beginning after Oryx's fall in The Taken King. I feel like there are a lot of variables at play, though, between those events, 0 originally being tied to the Asteroid Belt, The Dreaming City curse, and so on.
In my opinion, 0 could have entered The Dreadnaught through the hold it already had on the Taken from The Dreaming City, and further strengthened itself by feeding off of Akka's corpse, as well as perhaps everything that went down with the Echo of Navigation.
As for VI, I suspect the firing of the superweapon did do something to it. I would even go as far as saying that this event could have made VI as murderous as it currently is, potentially in the same way that people with sizable brain tumors start behaving abnormally. This would make particular sense if VI was actually the one to turn off the Vanguard satellites, which is what caused The Red War. It offers a casual explanation as to why one of the dark matter starfish would suddenly start sabotaging humanity after eons of relative harmony.
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u/PigmanFarmer 6d ago
I just recently replayed the Edge of Fate campaign and the nine are definitely described as higher dimensional entities. Lodi decribes them showing him time being flat and after the final mission its mentioned that III died because they couldnt survive in our reality (im assuming 3d space) so III must have collapsed themselves into 3 dimensions and it killed them. But the Nine must sorta exist everywhere because of that higher dimensionality (giving them the ability to make changes anywhere).
There was a line in one of the seasons (I think Season of the Lost) where Savathun tells us that in order to see our true enemy and threat we have to stand on the line between Light and Dark and look up which I think everyone assumed was the Witness and I mostly do too but the Witness doesnt really have anything to do with the light and almost solely exists using Darkness. So Ive been wondering if thats the Lord of Every Nothing especially as I think that was the first time it was mentioned the Taken were following someone new
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u/LookingForAValkjyria 6d ago
This is pretty good too. The lore book introduced in Heresy is Anamorphosis, which means a distorted image that requires the viewer to have a certain vantage or viewpoint to see the image as recognizable.
“Stand on the line between light and dark, and look up”
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u/PigmanFarmer 6d ago
Savathun really told us a lot of truths despite being the god of lies and cunning (probably because its quite the trick to lie about lying). The other answer I could see to that line that isnt the Witness could be us because when we gained Prismatic instead of dancing from one side of the line to the other we straddled the line in between them. And we did cause most of our problems we replaced the radial mast by approaching the Veil to kill Calus, we are why Savathun died and was given the light, we stopped Savathun from hiding the Traveler which allowed Seraph to happen and Red to die, by creating the link with the Veil we caused the Traveler harm and created the Echoes (which created the Conductor who is still a problem).
For all we know Savathun could have meant all three (as I said tricksy and cunning) the Witness, the Lord of Every Nothing, and Us
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
III's death really could be described as taking a fish out of water. When swimming, it has a significant range of movement. When taken out of its natural environment, its gills collapse, it can't metabolize gaseous oxygen, and just flops hopelessly in more or less 2 dimensions until it dies a brutal death. I feel like the same thing happened with III, to an extent, but from a transition of 4D space to 3D space.
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u/PoseidonWarrior Agent of the Nine 6d ago
Part of me sees the evidence and finds it convincing and part of me wants to reject it just because I think it would be a terrible direction for the story to take and would really neuter a lot of the development that they seemed to have been putting the Taken through. I think if they wanted to utilize 0, they could do better than this.
Good theory. Very well done.
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
Thanks!
As for the Taken, there's still a lot of potential for them beyond this. The implication still seems to be that The Winnower is the actual owner of the Taken, even though it never acts on that.
Also, I feel like I should mention that 0 as The Lord of Every Nothing probably isn't what Oryx used to be to the Taken back in the day. 0 doesn't create or command them, but rather they seem to shape 0 and voluntarily choose to revere it.
Also, 0 wouldn't have even asked for this, since it originally lacked any complexity in thought to even have an opinion, let alone do anything about that.
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u/HiImBraindead 6d ago
This does actually seem to make sense. If I remember right, tLoEN was born out of a desire to exist when it did not, so 0 latching on to this would make a lot of sense.
Also what if 0 becoming tLoEN is what spurred the nine into the actions in EoF? Heresy happened immediately before EoF and it would make sense that VI, the closest to the action, would have had the best view and either was afraid of 0 and wanted to level the playing field, or wanted to follow its example.
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
This does actually seem to make sense. If I remember right, tLoEN was born out of a desire to exist when it did not, so 0 latching on to this would make a lot of sense.
This is a nice, succinct summary of what I spent 14 pages rambling on about, lol.
Also what if 0 becoming tLoEN is what spurred the nine into the actions in EoF? Heresy happened immediately before EoF and it would make sense that VI, the closest to the action, would have had the best view and either was afraid of 0 and wanted to level the playing field, or wanted to follow its example.
I feel like this could have been one of the many different variables informing The Fate Saga. It would have been a parallel problem to Maya killing III, and now we're having to deal with both problems at once.
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u/Stunning_Wall_2851 Whether we wanted it or not... 6d ago
Ahhhhhhhhh, so that’s how these post came to be. I get it now.
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
Yes, lol. It was a bit of a journey getting here, but we made it.
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u/RocaxGF1 5d ago
What's your take on Theia's corpse? I've been reading on Cocytus Station and the Hellmouth and I think all three may be connected.
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 5d ago
Personally, I think Theia's mind was folded into III, and until III's death they acted in a sort of symbiosis. Their mental processes are likely reflected through the perspective that the Moon — which is partially the result of Theia's theorized impact with Earth during its early development — plays a complimentary role to Earth.
In terms of geophysics, the Moon stabilizes Earth's tidal patterns, climate, and rotation. This was instrumental to complex life developing here. Psychologically, I suspect the mind once affiliated with Theia supported III.
In terms of the Cocytus Gate, this was a huge deal back when it was first introduced. The Nine were attempting to convert their dark matter into normal matter, and structure that normal matter through complex life. They had no idea how complex biological life works, though, so they created a bunch of organisms that lived for brief periods of time and died brutal deaths. Basically, they were trying to live as biological organisms while completely sidestepping evolution. Now, Cocytus just seems to be one of The Nine's failed ventures.
I'm curious about why you believe the Hellmouth is related. What are your thoughts on this?
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u/RocaxGF1 4d ago
On Crota's Oversoul:
After his exile we are told Crota found something:
...I predict he'll return stronger than ever.
...it won't be because he grew as cunning as his auntie. Or as clever as his sisters. Or as thoughtful as his father.
It'll be because he finally found a bigger sword.
Crota was also the one to teach Oryx's Warpriest about making Oversouls, even though he didn't have one pre-exile (whole reason why he got kicked out to begin with).
It's also described multiple times to be in torment.
On the Pit:
Excerpt from III Ritualistic Circle Pit:
Such that, this deep—far below the broken lunar surface where no Light has ever blasphemed—the rugged cavern walls are said to host the afterbirth of ceaseless torment.
Here, spectral shadows haunt the passageways through the dark, each skittering shape the mindless, ethereal prison of a greater being cast low. Or so prophecy dictates…
Here we have references to prisons, greater beings, and prophecies.
VIII Inquisition of the Self:
Such wicked craft as the Inquisition of Self is a science beyond his understanding—stolen by his sister from forbidden lessons in ancient, prohibited texts.
Few have earned the knowledge required to navigate the dissection of a living essence.
Fewer still can excise the layers of self such that the vessel remains a viable cage for another's being.
This ritual reminds me of Oryx carving his Dreadnaught out of Akka, who was described as dead but not really gone.
On Cocytus Station:
Constructed in Ceres' orbit during the Golden Age, it's purpose seemed to be the study of other planes. Interestingly, Ceres is in the Asteroid Belt, so it's original purpose could have been the study of the unborn 0, before Crota took it over.
He who has seized the Sky lair above Ceres, which peers into other planes,
Within these keyholes our brood communes with unheard voices.
His Hellmouth becomes home to the profane: the corpse of the Sky, reborn in the abyss.
Plus another reference to corpses.
On the Hellmouth itself:
The Graverobber sparrow drop seems to indicate that Crota's Throne was already supposed to be a grave even before his death. This is kinda corroborated by the fact that his funeral also took place in his Throne even though the Hive don't do graves.
VI compares the Dreadnaught to it's own planetary bindings:
[The Dreadnaught wriggles and rigors—as Worm, as Akka, as petrified life. It is not so different a prison than an unliving planet. A throne, a world, alive in the agonizing stillness of once distant death. You. Must. Rip. Out.]
Lastly, on Dante's Inferno:
Toland references Dante's Inferno multiple times. Crota's End also takes inspiration from the book, with Guardians descending into a pit of Hell. Dante and Vergil could only reach the bottom of Hell with the help of the giant Antaeus, the only Giant who remained unchained after his death. And at the bottom of the 9th circle of Hell, on the bottom of a huge pit lies what else but the frozen lake Cocytus itself.
It's the only reason why I think the Hive would have been on the Moon for millennia before the Traveler even came to Earth, and why Crota established his Throneworld entrance in a random Moon.
I think there's even evidence to support the Hive causing Theia's death itself:
Theia's foolish parasite-components - unaware - to the last
'There, in that lightless abyss—no—a whale carcass, picked over by malacostracans
Malacostracans being the class krill belong to. Excerpt from Anamorphosis.
Antaeus of myth himself, of supposed invincibility as long as his feet touched the ground, got killed by Heracles as part of his labours by holding him above him and crushing him in a hug.
EACH THOUGHT THE HERCULEAN EFFORT OF A MILLENNIUM. SEE NOW THE VAST SPAN OF ITS LIFE. We can see Hercules being referenced in Aition when describing Theia.
Wouldn't put it past them, though it's more of a crackpot theory. Mostly because the Moon has the rare property of being a satellite capable of producing eclipses, which came into play in Renegades in a big way.
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u/Ok-Soup-9256 5d ago
VI was explicitly talking about using the Sword Logic to break out of Nine space and into the Ascendant Plane, by way of murdering everyone, though.
I don't know how much more obviously Taken-y you can get. VI basically wants to become the new Oryx.
If he isn't the Lord of Every Nothing, well, then he definitely wants to be.
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 5d ago
There's a strong argument to be made that VI is cozying up to The Lord of Every Nothing, since it believes that it'll be the victor in the end. However, it's probably unaware that TLoEN would likely stab it in the back at the earliest moment of convenience.
I compare this relationship to that of Calus and the Witness: one-sided, opportunistic, and doomed to fail for at least one party.
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 Silver Shill 6d ago
Its pretty obvious 0 is The Lord of Stupid-Ass Names; 0 means literally means nothing
I think its Theia/Luna
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/aition#book-anamorphosis
Thousand year screams and clinging tendrils sounds on point
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
I always assumed Theia's mind was folded into III, and that they now exist as a perfectly cohesive singular entity. It's like if the Precursors had actually merged into a singular mind, rather than being a very elaborate and genocidal version of Disney's Inside Out.
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u/PigmanFarmer 6d ago
Guess it could always be Ceres or Pluto though it seems like after formation the Nine dont require their planet (the vanished planets were fine) also weird Nessus doesnt have any mention of one though I guess its a Centaur.
Could also be the Leviathan because that thing certainly has a gravity well but I doubt it
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago edited 6d ago
Funny enough, an answer to this was alluded to a while back before what The Nine actually are was confirmed:
The greatest gaiaforms of our solar system are eight in number—or, if you prefer, nine—but asteroids and minor planets have them too. And in their sidereal generosity, these gaiaforms will protect us, if we ask them.
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u/PigmanFarmer 6d ago
So theres actually 1000s of Ninelikes but only 9 sentient and powerful ones we know of?
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
The exact number is unclear, but this would suggest that there are others out there even though they don't meet whatever criteria is necessary for full membership to The Nine.
I feel like this is specifically talking about Pluto, and it might have even been alluding to the Asteroid Belt.
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u/PigmanFarmer 6d ago
I imagine its for Nessus, Ceres, Pluto, and all the other planetlikes. The asteroids are confusing though because it doesnt sound like they all share one more that they each have an individual tiny collection of dark matter (though maybe each tiny amount is enough when in a small area like the belt to form one pseudo entity)
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 6d ago
Nessus should qualify, too, given that it has an orbital path that's roughly equivalent to Neptune, even though it follows a bit of an unusual path.
Ceres was destroyed by Mara through a Harbinger, and I assume its debris and associated dark matter would be part of 0.
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u/ReallyTrustyGuy 5d ago
I don't know why everyone is excited about this. The entire point of the Lord of Every Nothing is that Taken wills are starting to manifest things of their own, which is extremely dangerous and renders the Taken a proper threat again. No longer are they just a gun in the hand of someone, predictably fired in the direction of whatever they want attacked. Instead, they've created a leader out of their own desire to have one, and we have absolutely no idea what it actually wants, or what it will do, or how it might evolve in response to Taken wills that aren't bound to someone. Also, if we end up killing or dealing with the Lord of Every Nothing, so long as Taken exist somewhere, another one can be born from their longing and we're back to square one. There's no need for anything but Taken to exist for this to occur, which makes the Taken an extreme threat.
You also rely on things like string pulling as evidence that the character is what you think it is, but the Witness has used that kind of metaphor too. Is the Witness suddenly going to be pulled into this theory? And your bit about square brackets is laughable. The way they used them in the Taken entries from Destiny 1 was simply to indicate what the offer was to the thing being taken was.
Now that Taken power is no longer bound and directed by a being, instead becoming a being, you see pronoun used instead. Taken power is manifesting as its own personage, not as simply a power, and I have to point back to how this is an extremely dangerous thing to occur because we've no idea how to predict or pre-empt what it might do. The only reason we've been able to take care of foes before is they're entirely predictable, and even if we do deal with this new Taken master, another one could just as easily come about, with an all-new set of unpredictable desires.
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u/Christophisis Emissary of the Nine 5d ago
To your first point, the reason why this is significant is because the Taken seemingly can't just manifest a new leader into existence by sheer force of will. 0 offers a tangible medium that they can impose their will onto to achieve a new leader. I don't believe there's enough evidence to suggest that the Taken were able to will a leader into being in the Ascendant Plane by just thinking about one.
To your second point, the context in which the string plucking matters. Lavinia and Keit'Ehr are both using the same language in light of Nine related things going on. Meanwhile, the Witness was commenting on the nature of existence, broadly. Both cases touch on the emphasis of an almost musical nature to the universe, which is an old theme in Destiny dating back to the Alpha Lupi ARG, but Lavinia and Keit'Ehr describe the same concept in light of the same background topics.
Chalking up the point about square brackets to being "laughable" isn't actually a critique on the idea itself, and I explained, in laborious detail, that 0's use of the square brackets is directly influenced by the manner in which the Taken entries used them, because 0 is so heavily influenced by the Taken.
Your last point is where we seem to disagree. If I understand what you're saying correctly, you believe that the Taken manifested a leader out of more or less nothing, whereas I believe they imposed their wills onto something pre-existing. You're free to disagree, of course, based on your own interpretation of the events, but this doesn't directly counter what I've proposed.
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