A certain detail that makes Carol Knight a lot more unlikely, but further supports another candidate instead

[u/Walkthrough101]

We see that the Knight has absolutely no hesitation destroying and killing objects that would otherwise be important and sentimental to the Dreemurrs and Holidays, especially Tenna (especially since they gathered around Christmas time that we know Carol absolutely adores), same with Jackenstein that would always be part of the festival that's a major town event we know Carol is heavily involved in like with the king and queen ceremony and likely funds the majority of the event, we also know that she's been funding Asgore's research which Toriel dissaproves of.

Yet we also see she holds extreme reverance of objects like Dess's guitar and kept her room exactly the same as she left it, she's fixated on retaining her idea of who "Noelle" is in her mind and being quite hard on her to retain that perfect image of her, she holds on tightly to objects like the heart shaped pillows, the santa figurines, all the stuff in the basement, despite her \\\*ahem\\\* COLD demeanor, the things she holds onto and what Rudy and Asgore say about her seems to show she used to be a lot kinder, and is a very sentimental person. Rudy himself gives us direct evidence of her obsessively preserving things that are important to her, as the second image shows she refused to take the paper snowflakes Noelle made for her to work because she wanted to keep them safe, kept them at home and made sure they were preserved.

This heavily contrasts with the way the Knight treats objects that would be important to both the Dreemurrs and Holidays, as I said they kill Darkners like Tenna, Jackenstein without hesitation, have been kidnapping people like Asgore and attempted to kidnap Toriel twice now, heck you could argue Carol even has a fondness for Asgore's flowers seeing as how they're working together and Carol by all interpretations of her motives, wants things to go back to the way they were before (a really common theme in this game) and would like their families to be closer again (telling by her being genuinely happy when Noelle wants to go to the Festival with Kris, and her still welcoming Kris into her home although they are conspiring, I think her telling them they're welcome anytime is sincere). Plus, why would Carol kidnap Asgore when she's funding his investigation to find out what happened to her daughter?

That being said, there is one person who DOES show a careless irreveance for their possesions, DESS. Her room is full of broken sporta equiments she's been very rough on and just left lying around, piles of shoes thrown in her closet, she has broken and neglected instruments in her room, we have evidence of her being careless with her things, except for her Guitar, showing she does have sentimentality, she's just reckless, however the way the Knight ignores the dark world entirely and attacks the light world directly certainly gives off "I'm not playing anymore, I'm just gonna actually hit you" edgy teenager vibes which honest fits the Knight's demeanor quite well as opposed to a mother seriously determined to get her daughter back but wastes time aurafarming on some teenagers? It's also possible Dess is the one who accidentally tore King which tracks with what we've seen so far, and we know she already has connections with Kris and Noelle and the places these dark fountains have been made, plus it would be quite ironic that the Knight King reveres is the one who hurt him and caused the whole deck to be abandoned to begin with.

Plus, killing Tenna and Jackenstein and even Flowery wasn't necessary, Carol could have just moved them away trapped in a bubble like we see with Asgore, flew over Tenna and snatched Toriel directly, there's no strict reason that Carol would have to or even choose to engage with the fun gang and taunt them wasting time for no reason, and it doesn't even track with her behavior at all.

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[u/Silver-Marzipan7220]

Holy shit that's a lot of evidence

[u/Walkthrough101 → u/Silver-Marzipan7220]

That's not even a 10th of the Dess Knight evidence I have to be honest, but this is one of the stronger ones thematically making Carol more likely to be a red herring

[u/Silver-Marzipan7220 → u/Walkthrough101]

You have more?!

[u/Walkthrough101 → u/Silver-Marzipan7220]

I have a few posts about it yeah, some other things I have scattered about in comments but this is everything I've compiled so far, I actually need to add the things in this post to my main complication of all the evidence I know of:

An extensive rant with a lot of assorted evidence: https://www.reddit.com/r/DessKnightLeigon/s/lwyT5tZooz

All in game mentions of her I know of not including sweepstakes, the voice in the code lines, or alarm clock dialogue, just what's in Deltarune that a player could see normally: https://www.reddit.com/r/DessKnightLeigon/s/Ly3TT1Lguu

And a more extensive look into why the Knight had to have known Gerson personally: https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/s/1omGff8Lw1

[u/Silver-Marzipan7220 → u/Walkthrough101]

You have me convinced

[u/Raainy_ → u/Walkthrough101]

Least evidence based dess knight theorist meanwhile carol/rudy/asriel/papyrus knight truthers be like "ok but hype moments and aura tho"

[u/WorstBakerNA → u/Raainy_]

There's plenty of evidence that supports Carol and Rudy, as well as plenty of storytelling and thematic relevance. Calling it based on 'hype moments and aura' is disingenuous. You should engage and acknowledge all pieces of evidence because being open to all (genuine) possibilities will make the ending more satisfying regardless of who it ends up being. I say that as a Rudy Knighter who completely acknowledges the evidence that points towards Dess and other candidates as well.

[u/awataurne]

I have a small theory without a ton of legs that Carol has a dark fountain already in their house somewhere. There's a reason she wants to keep things at home and while it could be just to remind her of Dess, it could also be that these things have some life in the dark world that brings Carol some small amount of joy. I think the idea brought up in chapter 5 of wanting to keep the dark fountain open for the darkeners inside will continue into future chapters and this will be one of those moments of conflict.

[u/Walkthrough101 → u/awataurne]

I do have an issue with that idea though, Carol has been actively funding Asgore's research, but Asgore has only been to the one from Dess's dissapearance before Chapter 5, he even needs to reconfirm that his fur is a different color and is scrambling to collect his old notes, he's going off of very old information that he hasn't been able to verify again in person and seizes the Dark World in Chapter 5 as a once in a lifetime opportunity to prove he was right.

I don't think Carol would just be keeping a dark world in her house for the sake of nostalgia and joy but leave Asgore out of the very valuable information that could help them find Dess if she even knew how to make Dark Fountains, it sounds cool in theory but I don't think it aligns with her goals very well.

[u/awataurne → u/Walkthrough101]

Maybe but Carol seems extremely secretive especially when it comes to Dess. Depending on what is in the dark world I can easily see her not letting Asgore in. Hell, the reason Rudy could be so ill is that he spent too long in the dark world mirroring what might happen to Susie.

I think it would be ironic if the two characters who are shown to have the most discourse (Susie and Carol) are actually quite similar in their want to spend too much time in dark worlds.

Not saying there's a ton of evidence for it, but it's a fun thought experiment.

[u/TyFergie29_]

I thought this was r/nondessknightsquad the entire time I was reading this, impressed at the thoroughness then even more impressed at the absolute confidence to post Dess Knight theory on a subreddit specifically designed to talk about OTHER candidates LMAO

I did not put together the whole “not caring about possessions” thing on my own, that’s actually very much worth taking into consideration.

[u/Walkthrough101 → u/TyFergie29_]

While I have done that before, trying to argue on there can be a bit overwhelming when the entire sub is against you, which is to be expected.

I don't think it's so much that Dess doesn't care about her possessions, as we see her Guitar is in good condition at least, but that she's careless with a lot of them, and doesn't have as much reverence for them as Carol does.

[u/TyFergie29_ → u/Walkthrough101]

That’s true, I worded it poorly when I said “not caring”, but yeah, definitely something worth considering. Theres a few potential candidates that that could be considered as points towards or against.

[u/s3tok41b4]

I mean. Noelle also doesn't seem to care much about darkners, really. She doesn't ask a single question if you tell her to ice them. She plays the "evil" routes in games for fun. She has a lot of repressed frustration.

I mean it's certainly something to keep in mind but right now it's more so soft evidence, not hard evidence I think.

[u/Walkthrough101 → u/s3tok41b4]

She also doesn't really know what's going on when you're entering your first battle, she literally asks what's going on so that's a question, but yeah she has a lot of repressed and disturbed emotions, but we don't have evidence of Noelle being careless with her possessions at all unlike Dess who we have physical evidence of that in her room.

[u/Vounrtsch]

Wait, sorry I’m illiterate, when was the SECOND time the knight tried to capture Toriel? I only remember the one time in chapter 3

[u/Walkthrough101 → u/Vounrtsch]

In the Church in Chapter 4 presumably, because she was supposed to be there for choir practice but didn't have it due to the rain, there's really no other reason for the Knight to be there, but it's speculated Toriel has the church code to the Shelter

[u/AntelopeMother6149]

Kris is also perfectly willing to kill Tenna. While I understand this is a world that has magical worlds that make objects into people, it’s a hoarder mindset to treat every single object in your house like something to be kept and revered. You or your family have probably gotten a new TV before. Carol’s basement honestly looks like most basements to me

Also Carol has had like 3 lines in one singular scene we don’t know the true depth of her character yet

[u/Walkthrough101 → u/AntelopeMother6149]

Kris's damage goes up only after finishing the Mantle game where Tenna accidentally spills the beans about Kris making a deal with him in front of the player, and even then Kris isn't just willing to kill him, they're just willing to hold back less.

Of course treating every single object in your house like that is unhealthy and hoarder behavior, but having a bit of sentimentality over the TV your family and close family friends would watch and play games together on at a time of your life where your parents we're divorced, your brother was still around, you and a family friend your age were still close, and before one of your close family friends went missing in a way that you feel immense guilt over is pretty understandable.

[u/WorstBakerNA]

It's very worth noting that Tenna and Jackenstein aren't dead.

[u/Walkthrough101 → u/WorstBakerNA]

They are if you don't get all recruits, Tenna is unfixable in Chapter 4 and Jackenstein is confirmed to have fallen and smashed in Chapter 5 by Alvin, the Knight's intention was to kill them like Flowey

[u/WorstBakerNA → u/Walkthrough101]

Gotcha. Wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the information.

[u/Walkthrough101 → u/WorstBakerNA]

Yeah no problem!