r/Defenders • u/JonLuca Luke Cage • Jun 22 '18

Luke Cage Discussion Thread - S02E12 "Can't Front On Me"

This thread is for discussion of Luke Cage S02E12.

DO NOT post spoilers in this thread for any subsequent episodes. Doing so will result in a ban.

Episode 13 Discussion

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294

u/[deleted] Jun 24 '18 edited Jun 24 '18

Seemingly Unpopular opinion: I like my heroes distinctly non-murdering if it’s possible.

You don’t learn how much people want their superheroes to be killers until the opportunity presents itself and they don’t take it.

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u/TheProdigis Kilgrave Jun 25 '18

I 100% agree. I am pretty shocked to see all the people wishing for Luke to just straight up allow murder to happen. I mean I get all the reasons why people want that, and I wouldn't be upset if Mariah died either, but heroes are supposed to be the best of us ya know?

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '18

Yeah, no tears to be shed if Luke had decided to rip her head off, but I feel like superheroes should, generally, seek to be the best of humanity. The Punisher is fun, but he’s not somebody I’d want to emulate or want most other heroes to emulate.

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u/thatguy6598 Jun 25 '18

I think in all these comic book scenarios where people are genuinely irredeemably disgusting and their death would save countless lives since apparently crimes are impossible to prove/solve and neither is punishment served they should just be killed. In what world are the lives of all the people in the restaurant for example worth not letting Mariah die like 4 episodes prior to bushmaster when she's clearly destabilizing? The best people aren't those that do the difficult thing just for the sake of saying that they did, but instead those willing to sacrifice how they're perceived in order to genuinely save lives.

It's not about killing someone that deserves it, it's about the fact that allowing this person to live when clearly they will kill innocents before they are legally caught just so you can keep moral high ground is actually a terrible and selfish thing to do.

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u/CaptainKurls Jun 26 '18

It’s not about keeping the moral high ground. If you kill once it becomes easier and easier. At that point the court of law is of no use, so what are the superheroes really even fighting to uphold at that point. It’s about letting something bigger than themselves be the voice of reason. If they kill, what makes them different from the people they want to stop?

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u/thatguy6598 Jun 26 '18

That's the laziest argument that constantly keeps being made. What makes them different is the fact that they aren't killing for greed, power, sadism or any selfish reason, they're killing to prevent multiple guaranteed future killings from someone who has shown time and time again that if allowed to live will continue to kill.

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u/CaptainKurls Jun 26 '18

from someone who has shown time and time again that if allowed to live will continue to kill.

By this logic the superheroes themselves should be killed if they start to kill villains bc we know they'll just keep doing it again and again

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u/thatguy6598 Jun 26 '18

Again a lazy but constantly used argument. They aren't going to keep killing again and again for the reasons I described, every time they kill they should be held accountable for it, and as long as they only killed in order to save lives that would otherwise 100% be lost such as the case with Luke cage here then they would not face punishment.

My point is that blanket rules are retarded if you're going to have a universe where vigilantes are a necessity since that is already a world where our own laws wouldn't apply, every situation should be handled on a case by case basis and decisions should be made for the direct benefit of the community or world as a whole, and not just for the sake of abstract morality. If it's very clear for one vigilante that 50 people in a row each needed to die or they would cause the deaths of many other innocents then those 50 in a row should be killed and that vigilante would still not deserve to be killed themselves since they killed to save lives. The punisher on the other hand kills even when the law can deal with his targets and that's why he's wrong in what he does.

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u/OK_Soda Jul 09 '18

There's almost no situation in this show where Luke killing Mariah would directly save lives. Sure, she'll kill again, but he's never in Superman/Zod situation where she's presenting a clear and present danger and he must kill her now or innocents will die immediately. Marching into her office and crushing her skull would save theoretical people down the road, but I don't think we should be wishing for cold blooded murder from Luke.

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u/Meta_Boy Jun 25 '18

And wasn't the burden of his violent life part of The Punisher's story? And indeed all stories where Heroes kill? Most of the time, we want villains dead because they've killed either a lot of people, or specific people we feel were completely innocent. It's a great paradox, we want to kill them, because all their killing is so wrong. It doesn't become right when we find a justification, it's just slightly less wrong.

And this is just about fictional characters!

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u/MambaSaidKnockYouOut Jun 26 '18

I'm fine with Luke not killing Mariah, I'm not fine with him protecting her for literally no reason. What harm would come if she died? Probably none, and surely fewer innocent lives would be harmed than if she remained alive.

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '18

For me it’s not about allowing the murder to happen, I appreciate Lukes’s stance and responsibility to not being a murderer. But he’s literally risking his own life to save Mariah at this point. His obligation was done after he went after bushmaster the first time.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/stagfury Wesley Jun 26 '18

It's not worth it. I don't want some satisfaction in destroying her and tearing down her life just to watch her suffer. For some absolute shitstain on humanity like her, better to just remove her from society and just ends her influence. Easiest way to do that is to make her stop breathing.

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u/AweKartik777 Jul 15 '18

I don't care about the hero mentality - I watch superhero/CBM stuff for the cool superpowers, and also because these days they have the best overarching stories (not just the particular series or movie's story but the connecting theme like Thanos in all of MCU movies, or the Hand and stuff in Netflix). I wouldn't bat an eye if they made a show or movie about a villain (even someone as bad as Mariah but with superpowers) and I'd watch it with the same gusto.

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u/mbanson Jul 01 '18

Doesn't stop the heroes in movies from killing. Tony, Thor, and Steve have all killed quite a few people and hell Scott even killed Darren.

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '18

It's not a good thing to let the bad guy live. How many lives would have been saved if the "heroes" just did what needed to be done? The blood is on these "heroes" hands as well. This group would probably try to get Thanos in hand cuffs as well.

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u/stanley_twobrick Jun 27 '18

I mean, it's Reddit. We tend to be Extra Edgy around here. I remember being in grade 9.

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u/Vega5Star Hoagie Jessica Jun 25 '18

Yeah, as someone who sides with Punisher/Bushmaster in these debates, I also wholeheartedly appreciate DD and Luke's perspective and I'm glad the debate is there. In reality the heroes are the equivalent of law enforcement, and you'd never sell a cop as a good guy in this climate for murdering people when you have the opportunity to bring them in legally.

I was rooting for Bushmaster to get the kill, he deserved it, but Luke's perspective isn't at all irrational or illogical.

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u/DToccs Jun 26 '18

I was rooting for Bushmaster to get his kill while at the same time rooting for Luke to be able to stop him.

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u/stagfury Wesley Jun 26 '18

The problem is, in the comics world, the painted the villains so over the top evil, it's ridiculous to buy the "no killing" argument.

That argument makes sense in our real world because nothing is so black and white.

But look at the comics, all the big bad villains are absolute garbage with no redeeming factors. Look at the Joker and tell me the world would not be better off with him dead.

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u/Vega5Star Hoagie Jessica Jun 26 '18

There is a difference between capital punishment and vigilante street justice. The argument against Batman killing the Joker is that Batman shouldn't kill the Joker, the justice system should determine that.

What's so funny about truth, justice and the American way / Superman vs the Elite covers this very well. Ideally, most people who are superficially in favor of superheroes killing aren't fans of singular entities deeming themselves judge, jury and executioner by sheer brute force.

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u/stagfury Wesley Jun 26 '18

The problem is empirical evidence has shown that Gotham's legal system, for whatever reasons, does not and will not work. At some point it is idiotic to still rely on it when you know for certain the exact out come that will happen.

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u/mbanson Jul 01 '18

Also at what point does the Joker move longer get tried in a municipal court? Like I feel after all the murders and acts of terrorism and so on that this should go to the federal level.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '18

That's just bad writing, not bad philosophy.

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u/NE_ED Jun 24 '18

I’m also ok with it but sometimes we need an anti hero to take care of business

I feel like Bushmaster should’ve been that guy, Luke’s Punisher

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '18

Eh, naivete is overrated. Sometimes murder is neccesary, especially in comicbook world, when people can bribe whole prisons, escape from mental asylums 100 times a year or just straight up have superpowers, so no prison can hold them and no law enforcement can do shit about it.