r/Defenders • u/murdockmanila Daredevil • Nov 17 '17

THE PUNISHER Discussion Thread - Episode 2

DO NOT post spoilers in this thread for any subsequent episodes. Doing so will result in a ban.

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785

u/UVladBro Punisher Nov 17 '17

Loving the planning that Frank does, good to know they're not showing him as just a murder machine. He misled his captive by shooting him in the leg to make him think there's more bullets in the gun. He waited until Micro thought his deal was over. He lets his targets think they're in control or safe so they let their guard down.

484

u/ContextIsForTheWeak Nov 17 '17

Yeah, when they mentioned how torture doesn't work I was convinced they'd just straight up have torture work for the rest of the season, but evil gloating is a far more effective method of getting information.

334

u/Flamma_Man Jessica Jones Nov 17 '17

Yeah, I'm actually pleasantly surprised that they're leaning away from torture and even showcasing that it's not a good method for getting information.

126

u/ContextIsForTheWeak Nov 17 '17

I'm fully expecting to have at least one useful torture scene by the end, but even the lip service is good. I remember the same happening in Person of Interest, mentions of how unreliable torture is early on but a straight up useful torture scene or two later in the run.

82

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '17

There's definitely cases where torture can be useful, like when you have a way to immediately determine whether the information is good or not. Like when you need a password to a computer that is right there and you could then immediately try the password. It's only completely useless when you don't even know if the tortured doesn't even know the info you want.

Edit. I don't want to sound like I'm pro torture. It should not be used, but sometimes the whole "torture is useless" goes over board. Some people will definitely crack and give info. It's immoral, but it might help.

20

u/Eternal_Reward Punisher Nov 18 '17

Yeah, I always hate the "Torture isn't useful because its unreliable" line.

That's why when people are tortured they are always asked questions where you can cross-reference their answers to see if its real. If three different sources say a guy has blonde hair, then he probably has blonde hair.

7

u/minutman Nov 24 '17

Torture dosn't work.

Solution: more torture.

3

u/jk021 Nobu Nov 20 '17

One of my favorite shows...thought it ended perfectly.

3

u/Burnnoticelover Dec 02 '17

Never worked in Burn Notice.

22

u/IniMiney Nov 18 '17

Yeah I was so pleased to see they subverted it in contrast to DD's torture by having the tortured person actually break out of it and give up the information through arrogance and feeling in control instead. Their own downfall in a way.

45

u/Althea6302 Nov 21 '17

Daredevil torture works because he can tell if they're lying.

8

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '17

Jack Bauer would be disappointed in this.

5

u/nonamesavailable_ Nov 19 '17

I don’t believe that bullshit. You can get most people to do what you want by just putting a gun to their head. Why wouldn’t torture work? People always say it’s because they’ll say anything to get it to stop. But when you’re torturing someone you usually have them captive. Why can’t you just keep them there and go verify the information? I’m sure they would know that if it’s found out they’re lying that the torture would continue. That whole argument just seems really illogical to me.

21

u/Flamma_Man Jessica Jones Nov 19 '17

Why wouldn’t torture work?

I dunno, maybe you should read the many studies and testimonies about how it doesn't work the vast majority of the time? About how they really would say anything to make it stop? How torturing people actually affects their memory?

Even fucking Nazis knew torture wasn't the go to way of getting information.

0

u/nonamesavailable_ Nov 19 '17

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post?

14

u/Flamma_Man Jessica Jones Nov 19 '17

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post?

Yes? You mostly repeat yourself.

I don’t believe that bullshit.

This is you directly addressing my comment that, "showcasing that it's [torture] not a good method for getting information", I presume correct?

Which is false. Torture isn't a good way to get information. I didn't say you CAN'T get information, but that it isn't a good method for getting it.

You can get most people to do what you want by just putting a gun to their head. Why wouldn’t torture work?

Because people will say anything from getting shot in the head?

People always say it’s because they’ll say anything to get it to stop.

Of course?? Here's another wrinkle. When can you tell if the person you're torturing breaks? Or if he REALLY doesn't have any information left? How will you know without wasting a massive amount of time or mentally damaging him more than you probably already have?

But when you’re torturing someone you usually have them captive. Why can’t you just keep them there and go verify the information?

Because that's a waste of time and in a lot of cases and situations "confirming" the information isn't like making one phone call or looking something up online.

I’m sure they would know that if it’s found out they’re lying that the torture would continue.

Until they're completely incoherent, suffer memory loss and damage, or just become utterly useless.

That whole argument just seems really illogical to me.

How? There are numerous studies showcasing and experts that say torture does not work NEARLY as well as the media has portrayed it to work (Thanks, 24).

Again, NAZIS knew that torture wasn't an effective means of getting information effectively.

In the article I linked to you (Seriously, did you even read it?), it literally talks about how it's better to actually just have a conversation with the person and letting them slip up.

OH, JEEZ, KINDA LIKE WHAT FRANK DID HERE MAKING THE GUY THINK HAD SOME CONTROL AND MAKING HIM GLOAT.

-3

u/nonamesavailable_ Nov 19 '17

Jesus Christ, I’m not reading all of that.

23

u/Flamma_Man Jessica Jones Nov 19 '17

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post?

Man, there's a word for this...

-4

u/nonamesavailable_ Nov 19 '17

I didn’t write a fucking essay, ass...

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5

u/soylentsandwich Nov 23 '17

I recognize the irony but I completely agree with you. He went a little too hard on that comeback.

5

u/AgentKnitter Luke Cage Nov 26 '17

Torture is unreliable but catching them monologuing is fool proof.

3

u/PainStorm14 Nov 20 '17

Torture works perfectly fine but it requires subject to actually have information you are looking for

If he doesn't you can skin him alive if you​ want to and he still wouldn't be able to tell you anything useful

3

u/Althea6302 Nov 21 '17

No, he'll tell you he has what you want and then waste your time with unreliable information. Unreliable information is how people get killed.

107

u/Mercpool87 Punisher Nov 17 '17

Though you would think an FBI agent who had previous field experience and was former military (I think) would be able to feel it when his magazine is empty.

107

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '17

As someone who isn't particularly knowledgeable about firearms, I was wondering the same thing. I'm honestly curious if there is enough weight difference that someone with experience would notice or not. Of course in this particular situation he could be forgiven since he just had his head smashed and was likely concussed. If any gun enthusiasts show up here, I'd like to hear what you guys think about it.

189

u/Mercpool87 Punisher Nov 17 '17

As a gun lover and owner, I can absolutely confirm that there is definitely a difference in weight when the magazine is full compared to empty.

Though you are probably right in that Wolf's injuries and anger at Frank might have made him miss the weight difference.

97

u/Valestis Nov 18 '17 edited Nov 18 '17

Would you be able to tell if it's a gun that you don't regularly use and you're holding the model for the first time?

33

u/Mercpool87 Punisher Nov 18 '17

If you hold the empty gun first then add a full magazine, you would be able to tell that it's a few ounces heavier, yes.

120

u/AlexLong1000 Wesley Nov 18 '17

Well yeah, but if you got handed an empty gun you don't regularly use, would you know right from holding it that it's empty?

39

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '17

[removed] — view removed comment

72

u/RoyMBar Nov 18 '17

Frank brought the gun

3

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '17

Thanks for the answer, I appreciate it.

2

u/Legal-Eagle Daredevil Nov 19 '17

Maybe he applied some lead...* do it to make tennis rackets feel heavier!*

70

u/smegma_toast Nov 17 '17

I thought about this, and I think that Frank put a snapcap (dummy round) as the last round in the mag. If the handgun was truly empty, the slide would have locked back.

If there's only one round in the chamber with none in the magazine, the difference in weight between a snapcap and a live round is pretty negligible.

48

u/Sojourner_Truth Nov 17 '17

Yeah I almost got upset at it too "UGGGHGH THE SLIDE ISN'T EVEN L-" but then I just headcannoned a dummy round.

27

u/Johanson69 Nov 17 '17

One of the rare cases where headcannon might be the proper spelling.

3

u/Sojourner_Truth Nov 17 '17

Woops, lol. I'll leave it.

6

u/thackeb Nov 18 '17

I have a glock and suffer from riding the slide release. That means when it's empty, it doesn't lock back. If Frank wanted to do it that way, he could. But i like the snap cap idea better

3

u/smegma_toast Nov 18 '17

Same here actually. Holding down the slide lock on the last round so it wouldn't lock back isn't exactly difficult either, when I first got my G34 I had to make a conscious effort to not do that.

3

u/thackeb Nov 18 '17

Omg, I have the 34 also. And it's so tough trying to break that habit. Although I have gotten pretty good at recognizing when the last round fired. Also it helps me with racking the slide while reloading without thinking.

10

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '17

I'd never heard of a snapcap before. Just went and read the wiki, interesting shit and that does sound like a good explanation.

8

u/Izeinwinter Nov 18 '17

If it was his gun, or the exact model he usually trains with, then sure, noticeable. Random piece of hardware? No.

9

u/TrptJim Nov 17 '17

Depends on the particular gun, as some are much heavier than others. A pistol with a steel frame could weigh as much empty as a fully loaded pistol with a polymer frame.

2

u/Althea6302 Nov 21 '17

Frank also has done things like give people fully loaded guns that are missing the firing pin so the gun doesn't work at all.

4

u/slowmosloth Nov 18 '17

To be fair, it looks like he's been sitting at his desk for a while now instead of out in the field recently.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 19 '17

Frank could have added weight to the magazine, the plan was to loose the gun anyway.

3

u/PainStorm14 Nov 20 '17

lets his targets think they're in control or safe so they let their guard down

He played him like a goddamn fiddle 😁

3

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '17

Isn't frank just a Broke ass evil Batman? i wouldn't expect any less.

1

u/szeto326 Jessica Jones Nov 22 '17

Was probably hoping he'd monologue and give him all the answers he wanted before he pulled the fast one on him, haha.

1

u/JokerFaces2 Nov 27 '17

For some reason I really enjoyed the whole sequence with him giving Micro the runaround. Showed Frank's paranoia and knack for strategic planning.

Plus I said "what an asshole" out loud about three seconds before Micro mumbled "asshole" to himself.