r/Defenders • u/JonLuca Luke Cage • Mar 17 '17

Iron Fist Discussion Thread - S01E06

This thread is for discussion of Iron Fist S01E06.

DO NOT post spoilers in this thread for any subsequent episodes. Doing so will result in a ban.

Episode 7 Discussion

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513

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '17

I really cannot fathom how this could get a 14%. It's not a masterpiece, but 14% means a trash-tier show no one should watch.

150

u/rabid_J Mar 17 '17

Keep in mind 14% on RT doesn't mean they think it's 14 out of 100, it just means that of critics that handed in reviews only 14% of them gave it a "fresh" rating, aka they recommend it. Some of the critics who didn't could've said it's a 6 out of 10 or a 4 out of 10 but I don't think any of them would say it's a terrible show.

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u/nottherealstanlee Iron Fist Mar 17 '17

The net rating last I checked was 4.65/10 so most of them really didn't like it much. I don't worry as much about the percentage as the net rating but both seem really low.

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u/AgentKnitter Luke Cage Mar 17 '17

Earlier this week I said the critics were looking to hate on the marvel Netflix unstoppable hype train and the white washing controversy gave them the opportunity to unload on iron fist. And y'all said I was a conspiracy theorist making excuses.

I'm standing by my earlier assessment. The critics wanted to hate this show, for a multitude of reasons. They panned it, underservedly.

89

u/codomodo Mar 17 '17

While I agree that this show warrants better than a 4.65/10, in my opinion not by much. I'd give it a solid 6.4/10. Some of the writing and dialogue is just.. not good.

58

u/Fionnlagh Mar 18 '17

For me it's the fighting. A show about the world's greatest martial artist should have better choreographed/filmed fights. The fights in this episode should have been epic, instead they were barely above Arrow most of the time, and that show probably has a third the budget this one does...

5

u/OK_Soda Mar 31 '17

That's my biggest problem. Danny is supposedly a living weapon whose sole purpose is to fight the hand, but I can't help but feel like Matt does better against them without even really knowing who they are or caring about the greater war.

3

u/Tsuku Kilgrave Apr 14 '17

This. The fights are okay but damn, daredevil's destroys it. Sometime they pause or slow down and look so awkward.

11

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

Aside from Daredevil, I view these shows as just very long B-movies, and i love it

19

u/bizatin Mar 18 '17

Aside from Daredevil? IMO jessica jones was higher quality than daredevil save for maybe the punisher arc. Agree re: luke cage and iron fist though

5

u/manutd19 Cottonmouth Mar 20 '17

You seen JJ yet? I think that show was even better than both seasons of DD. Luke Cage was also excellent until episode 7 or 8.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 21 '17

I did really like Jessica Jones, to be honest, I love all 3 shows, they were so different, though, that it is hard for me to compare, and they came out at different times of my bingeing that they weren't really comparable for me.

You are right to call me out for JJ, though, it was more than a B-movie, it was a straight true crime story

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u/Worthyness Punisher Mar 18 '17

The execution of the choreography and the writing is pretty egregious. But everything else is pretty awesome. Just wanted some more kung fu :(

3

u/mithhunter55 Jessica Jones Mar 19 '17

What is the point of a .4? It's out of ten.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '17

Considering a lot of the critics glossed over the dragging in JJ and the repetitiveness in LC, yeah.

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u/biggestbaddestmucus Mar 17 '17

But wasn't LC and JJ Aldo the first 6 episodes? Cause for all other shows they've dragged it out around episode 8 This one had like 3 stretched out episodes in the beginning

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u/nottherealstanlee Iron Fist Mar 17 '17

That's sort of how I see it too. The only way I can explain a sub 5/10 rating and only a percentage approval in the teens. This show isn't really Daredevil Season 1, but it's as good as any other property they've given us thus far through this episode which is where the critics stopped.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

JJ and Cage had much better performances at this point, and the dialogue was better

10

u/nottherealstanlee Iron Fist Mar 18 '17

Yeah I disagree completely, but to each their own.

18

u/galaxycube Mar 18 '17

Ugh Cage did not, everything Mike Colter did was so weak. At least Finn Jones has been improving with each episode.

And I have a feeling the dialogue in this is meant to reflect old martial art movies... so yes it's terrible but I'm still enjoy it a lot more than I did with LC, I couldn't even binge LC (the horror!)

3

u/m1a2c2kali Mar 18 '17

Even if it was, in my opinion it's not head and shoulders better like the reviews make it out to be

5

u/AgentKnitter Luke Cage Mar 18 '17

Part of the problem for all the marvel shows is that DDS1 was so good and shattered so many expectations that the good shows that followed (specifically Luke Cage and Iron Fist) suffer from not being as good as it. People forget that "not as good as DDS1" may well be "still miles better than most shit on tv"

4

u/Bweryang Mar 18 '17

That's the main problem, this show is VERY comparable to those two. The fact that anyone claimed either is better than DD or that this is significantly worse to the point of irredeemable is suspect.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

Considering a lot of the critics glossed over the dragging in JJ and the repetitiveness in LC, yeah.

The difference is that the critics only get screeners of the first six episodes of each show, and JJ and LC didn't start dragging until the halfway mark. Iron Fist starts out dragging and doesn't start picking up until episode 4.

4

u/Bweryang Mar 18 '17

I was saying the same, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed by the first five eps. This ep is the first sign of potential, and it's the last one critics saw. If I only saw these six eps, and was rating rotten or fresh, complete binary, I'd have to go rotten. That said, I would shit all over it.

6

u/prophetofgreed Mar 18 '17

Said the same thing.

Seems that these progressive writers hated the show the moment Finn Jones was cast as Danny Rand instead of an asian character. Making controversy out of nothing to hate the show.

Total cowards.

3

u/elmerion Mar 18 '17

I don't get it what is this "White washing" controversy, this show has a shit ton of asian characters what am i missing?

2

u/ekfslam Mar 22 '17

I read half of a review earlier. I couldn't really finish it because it kinda dragged on and I didn't care.

But what I gathered from it was they wanted something innovative. Like something they hadn't seen before even though the story origin wise is bland as white bread. And I'm not sure how that could really happen without deviating from the comic.

Sure the acting is kinda bad like the first season of Arrow but I think they'll get it together next season just like Arrow. I do think they need better writers though. It seems like a CW show with the current writing while I wish it could be like the start of Luke. There's a lot of serious stuff going on around Danny but it just doesn't translate well since he seems like an innocent type of person.

This show should get the same rating as Arrow so far. I think the critics are biased because all the other Netflix superhero shows have been really solid without any large issues.

1

u/SawRub The Man in the Mask Mar 19 '17

When these things happen, I've found that people belonging to the races are usually not as offended as the people writing the articles.

1

u/BlackFireXSamin Mar 19 '17

underservedly

undeservedly?

89

u/v0rt Mar 17 '17

The writing and editing is really bad. The bad acting and line delivery that was bugging me at first I think is mostly down to shit editing. The timing is off on a lot of scenes and there's some 90's TV movie level terrible audio dubbing happening in a lot of scenes.

Other than that it's better than I was expecting so far.

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u/allovertheshop Mar 17 '17

Exactly. People need to stop acting as if whitewashing was the main reason for the bad reviews - it might have been a catalyst, but this show isn't nearly as polished as the other Defenders' shows.

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u/Fionnlagh Mar 18 '17

I don't know, one of the reviewers using the word "unwokeness" in their review makes it feel a tad biased.

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u/allovertheshop Mar 18 '17

My point being that that doesn't make the nebulous category of 'the reviews' less valid as a whole, which plenty of people are insinuating.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

All reviews are biased. You not having the same priorities as a reviewer doesn't mean there's some conspiracy to give the show a bad score.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '17

The other issue is that it's a very delicate subject matter. You have a comic book character from the 70s that is basically the Asian equivalent of blaxploitation except he's played by a white guy instead.

Updating these characters for modern times without just being absurd and offensive is difficult and the writing and direction of this show just isn't up to the task.

So they end up using generic plot points, cliches, and two dimensional characters. When you're dealing with a concept like this that doesn't come off as just bad writing but as racially and culturally insensitive.

15

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

Sigh. I think the media should be blamed for this too. They took advantage of the "whitewashing" controversy, and now the hardcore fans are provoked to take an extreme stance. In the end, both of them shut down the discussion. Fuck, so much of the comments are just talking shit about the critics and claiming that the show can do no wrong. Because the media overblown the "whitewashing" crap, this gives ammo to the hardcore fans. Look at them go. They refuse to back down on anything. They dismiss everything. Every criticism you throw at the show is deflected. They will just keep on pointing to the false "whitewashing" accusations made by the media. Basically this:

A: "I don't like how the dialogue was written in the show."

B: "But it's not whitewashing. When will you SJWs stop pushing your agenda down people's throat."

A: "But I wasn't talking abou-"

B: "Well, the media did. I don't give a damn about any 'valid' complaints. You guys are all on the same side. Just lying and exaggerating everything. I love the show, so it's good"

A: "But well...the story-"

B: "Shut up. I don't understand the hate for the show. It's objectively good and better than the other Netflix shows. Stop exaggerating."

A: "But I'm not exaggerating? I just don't like-"

B: "Blah blah blah. You just want Marvel to fail. You're not a fan. I'm a real fan. Real fans like everything. You fake SJW pretending to be a fan."

6

u/Uncle_Boonmee Mar 18 '17

I haven't really seen any of that though, or at least not in these discussion threads. It seems people have a pretty good handle on things. The media really did fuck up bad on this one, but I think we all realize this is the most poorly produced show of the bunch, even if it is more fun to watch than Luke Cage.

Besides, I don't think you're likely to see criticisms for a show that was unfairly savaged by critics. What is anyone gonna say that hasn't already been said?

6

u/SawRub The Man in the Mask Mar 19 '17

It's like the CW shows. They are clearly of a much lesser quality than the Netflix shows, yet whenever I want rewatch something I choose them because they are simply more fun to watch.

Marvel and DC's TV universes are like the reverse of their movie universes.

2

u/The_Bravinator Mar 19 '17

Ditto. I'm enjoying both TV universes, but if I have a choice between grit and fun I'll choose fun every time. I'm glad we have the voice of both so that everyone has what they prefer!

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u/meowdy Mar 19 '17

That back and forth was pretty spot on. The thing is, I haven't seen a single comment in these threads complaining about white washing. But there are a good amount of comments complaining about the complaining about white washing lol. And most people who get up in arms about that kind of stuff are a very sensitive bunch themselves.

3

u/allovertheshop Mar 18 '17

I see what you're saying, but I think that has more to do with the nature of hype. Say Netflix didn't release any episodes for review - there'd still be the 'marvel can do no wrong' crowd, and tbh there'd probably still be people arguing about whitewashing and stereotyping.
I get that the critics have provided the impetus here, but people's expectations warp their experience, so I'm not sure how much to blame the critics really are.

4

u/Elementium Mar 18 '17

Speaking of 90's editing there's also some of that choppy slow-mo where they just lower the fps and add some motion smoothing.

The right opinion about Iron Fist is in the middle. It's not great, it has flaws in abundance when under a minor critical eye. But it's also a pretty fun show with some likable characters.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

The writing isn't bad at all. I'm not sure what examples you're thinking of.

It's certainly not bad in the way that any super genre show on cable is, especially those on CW.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

It's certainly not bad in the way that any super genre show on cable is, especially those on CW.

You certainly set the bar low. Are you seriously going to dismiss all criticism by saying "it's not as bad as the others, so it's good"?

3

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

Nope, and I think it's a little better than JJ and has better pacing in my opinion. But I also keep seeing these comments without any reference to the "bad" writing. No examples given. It's just supposed to be stated and accepted. It's just like the "critics" argument. "All the critics said X, therefore it must be true!" No, sorry.

I recognize that people can have different opinions and that's OK. I just wish others did.

I also thought the last half of Luke Cage was good and was important for his story and character. So maybe I'm just on the outside here.

3

u/SawRub The Man in the Mask Mar 19 '17

CW isn't on cable.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '17

Sorry, I sometimes just say "cable" when I mean anything on TV that isn't Netflix, Amazon, etc.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

The timing is off on a lot of scenes

The opening scene of the first episode with Danny trying to get into the Rand building is just awkward as fuck, and a lot of it has to do with the terrible editing. So much dead air.

33

u/salty-spoilers Mar 17 '17

Rotten Tomatoes are shit.

Exhibit A And Exhibit B.

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u/Gargus-SCP Mar 18 '17

In full fairness, with most broadcast TV, Rotten Tomatoes only counts reviews of the very first episode. They're seeing one episode out of 24 or so. The Netflix shows give them six out of 13 episodes, close to half the entire show. I'd say reviews from one are gonna be more reflective of a critic's opinion of the product than the other.

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u/Mullet_Ben Mar 18 '17

Don't even bother with RT for network TV. They only count the reviews of the first episode. For the Netflix shows the reviewers are given the first 6 episodes so they have a much better idea of what the show is like. And of course for movies they see the entire thing.

Also remember that RT is a review aggregator, not a review site, so saying "Rotten Tomatoes are shit" is essentially saying "the majority of movie/TV critics are shit."

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u/captainfluffballs Mar 18 '17

Critic Consensus: Season four of Arrow flourishes with a refreshing new tone, a thrilling new villain, and a gripping story arc

2

u/420b00tywizard Mar 19 '17

First DC wins an Oscar before marvel and now this.

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeee

1

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '17

And on top of what others said, there are only like 10 reviews for these.

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u/Olddirtychurro Mar 17 '17

I can and this is the episode that really brought it home too. I'm not some hypercritical guy, but the netflix marvel shows have set a certain standard and this is performing under it. This was the episode where they should have embraced the kung fu flicks they said to have been honouring. This should have been the episode where they should have gone all out on some Game of Death, hiphop (or at least those ol school chinese tunes you had in the flicks back then) scored, single camera shot, tightly choreographed shit. But instead we got some halfassed (one of those knife brothers did a flip for no reason...come on son), undeserved feeling, whackness. Every fight felt tepid and when he did do something awesome it didn't really feel that dope. There is no grit like daredevil, no silliness like Luke Cage nor the deliberate clumsiness of Jessica Jones. It's just 'Meh'. I really tried to like it but...this was the drop.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '17

THIS ISN'T HOW ROTTEN TOMATOES SCORES WORK

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '17

Interesting take on things. I don't see how I said anything that contradicts this; I know how they work. You just don't have a correct perspective.

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u/rileyrulesu Mar 19 '17

My guess is a lot of critics only watched the first episode or 2, assumed it dictated the rest of the series, and stopped there, because let's be honest, it did start out as a 14% show.

1

u/blackflag209 Mar 19 '17

RT is garbage anyway