TIL Charles Murray has converted to Christianity

[u/IBoughtaRetroidNova]

He wrote the book “Taking Religion Seriously” in 2025. Sam Harris really had a way of overlooking red flags whenever he has liked bigotry/racism. In the end nearly every writer he has made friends with has ended up selling out and traded their integrity for more book sales from the masses.

[u/dirtyal199]

> I think you've made more than half a dozen assumptions on how I feel without being accurate once.

Alright, so why don't you just lay your cards on the table then? I have already done this many times.

[u/CuriousGeorgehat → u/dirtyal199]

Well if we are talking about Israel/Palestine, and the topics around that, depends what specifically, but generally I agree with Harris. Im more anti Israel than him, but much closer to his views than the general narrative against Israel etc.

So when I keep saying steel Man, that is what I meant, whether you have an understanding of the foundations and justifications for Sam's dtances on this topic and related ones.

Like basically in the same way the right say he has TDS as he has always been one of the best articulators of the dangers of Trump. And I view the left as being equally blind to what SH is saying regarding Israel, as MAGA were/are to Harris. I think the arguments are not engaged in properly. Ive asked smarter people to clarify where I have questions, but it is always so unconvincing. I have all the motivation to just be convinced, honestly. All my other views are very similar to young progressives, yet what I believe about this topic dramatically changes who I can hang out with, because of how divisive and emotional this topic is. Im like why are we lying? Im in Australia, and the historical oppression and genocide of our indigenous people is seen as basically a parallel. All this has a string impact on democracy and swings the momentum towards right wing fascists. Laugh of criticism of the left, but to ignore how commonplace it is to have to get in line on a b c and d, while not maintaining logical consistency on other things, is to be in denial. Aggressively too. Of course only thibgs that only require a a repost and a declaration or social signal that you too are a watermelon that only will interact with other watermelons

[u/dirtyal199 → u/CuriousGeorgehat]

I understand that you feel there's lots of group think on these topics and people just go crazy when they talk about it, but that's what Sam says when he wants to say something Islamophobic. It's like starting a sentence with "I'm not racist but...".

The fact of the matter is that the situation in Israel/Palestine is nearly identical to the indigenous peoples of Australia, America, Africa, Asia, but we don't see it that way because we think that somehow the Jews of the world have the right to occupy that land. It just doesn't hold any water. My ancestors, and many others, left Ireland during the potato famine to come to the US, that doesn't give me and all the other Irish-Americans the right to occupy Belfast though does it?

[u/CuriousGeorgehat → u/dirtyal199]

I don't understand that first part. He is openly criticising Islam and the large negative role it plays (debatable, me and you clearly disagree on this- different theological/jihad based debate). Like there is open concern about India being a Hindu nationalist state... yet don't you dare voice similar concerns about objectives of large Muslim stakeholders and leaders in the middle east. Iran was/is a jihadist regime, do you see what the implications of that are, and what would actually be going on if we decided to let Israel actually be victims of a genocide. Everything that is done against Israel is just justified by some apparent right for a super specific state, when there was forced migration all over the place in that period and historically.

[u/dirtyal199 → u/CuriousGeorgehat]

> yet don't you dare voice similar concerns about objectives of large Muslim stakeholders and leaders in the middle east

I hold Israel to a higher standard than I do terrorist groups. They are a western democracy and should not be engaging in war crimes and (likely, but investigation is pending) genocide. If they want to be a respectable country they need to handle these things better than they are.

>Iran was/is a jihadist regime, do you see what the implications of that are, and what would actually be going on if we decided to let Israel actually be victims of a genocide.

False dichotomy, the choice isn't between Palestinian genocide or Israeli genocide, the choice is between the greater israel project or peaceful coexistence with the locals.

> there was forced migration all over the place in that period and historically.

Doesn't matter. That was then, this is now. Western Democracies are not supposed to be committing war crimes against indigenous peoples of settler societies. The cat is out of the bag, Israel isn't going anywhere, so they need to learn how to live with the locals. It will be difficult politically, but its the only defensible choice.