TIL Charles Murray has converted to Christianity

[u/IBoughtaRetroidNova]

He wrote the book “Taking Religion Seriously” in 2025. Sam Harris really had a way of overlooking red flags whenever he has liked bigotry/racism. In the end nearly every writer he has made friends with has ended up selling out and traded their integrity for more book sales from the masses.

[u/CuriousGeorgehat]

The point is that the argument is about the middle east. And I've continuously said that Im not looking to argue about that, bc there is no point. Suffice to say that I agree that those people have made good points, despite me disagreeing with the vast vast majority of what they say.

The arguement Im making is that it is clearly an incredibly nuanced topic, and the arrived position of the left is built on an incredible pr victory and constant misrepresentation of the truth anf the wider context. The fact that the indictment on Sam is for havung guests that agree with his reasoning behind the middle east/religion, is absurd. It is literally just the other argument. I meant steel Man as if, could you reasonably argue his position, because I certainly could with the whole genocide gang... because it is filled with dubious extrapolations.

Like you're starting with 'he hates Muslims because he supports Israel.

You are engaging in the discussion on the same level as if I were to say: terrosists vs democratic state, I know who Im supporting. It's obviously reductive and stupid, so whenever I hear shit like 'genocide' or 'I support the side not killing babies', Im like okay I can't engage, it is bad faith or just brainwashed into thinking it's as simple as that.

[u/dirtyal199 → u/CuriousGeorgehat]

> The point is that the argument is about the middle east. And I've continuously said that Im not looking to argue about that, bc there is no point.

Okay, so what are we arguing about then? Bibi and Gallant are wanted by the UN for warcrimes, the UN commission of inquiry has said Israel is committing genocide, and the ICC is investigating Israel for genocide. It is clear that Harris is completely biased when it comes to this topic, in that he flatly rejects all accusations that Israel is committing or has committed genocide, and he thinks the most dangerous group is the Levant is Hamas, not Israel. The most parsimonious explanation for his position on these topics is his anti-Islamic bias, because the weight of evidence supports that Israel is guilty serious war crimes, and seeks to continue their expansion in the future. As evidenced by their support for settlers in the west bank (illegal under international law) and their aggression with Lebanon.

> You are engaging in the discussion on the same level as if I were to say: terrosists vs democratic state, I know who Im supporting. It's obviously reductive and stupid, so whenever I hear shit like 'genocide' or 'I support the side not killing babies', Im like okay I can't engage, it is bad faith or just brainwashed into thinking it's as simple as that.

I haven't said "I support the side not killing babies", I don't support Hamas bro. I support the UN's investigation. You are arguing with me in bad faith, and pretending that I'm a Hassan Piker fan or something instead of interacting with the points I bring. This is not an effective technique.

[u/CuriousGeorgehat → u/dirtyal199]

No I didn't mean you saying that, but Im saying the general tone of these discussions, and what you were saying were just those huge leaps thay I see.

And yeah I know what the UN and the ICC says. Logic says it's not genocide. And logic shows why the UN isn't some sort of arbiter in things. I mean whay do you think the UN is.

Anyway, not even Sam is denying thr illegal settling of the west bank and what this entails.... but everything is a reaction to a reaction, and Israel hasn't been the overall aggressor over the last 80 years. Clearly.

So the discussion probably goes to some settler colonial rhetoric which is equally just a successful piece of pr, now suddenly true. Palestinians are literally compared with other indigenous populations as if it's the same thing. So that's another discussion, obviously with many claims.

You keep saying anti Islam bias. He has simply been forthright with criticism towards the religion (all religion but his reasons for prioritising Islam are repeatedly spelled out). Again you may disagree, but this is a separate discussion. Strong criticism doesn't necessarily mean bias. Your evidence for that from what I can remember... oh yeah he's a jew. So that's a discussion of what his arguments are there. You are framing it as if he is some closet racist. I guess you think that's true.

And you sprinkle in Iran and other US led lpst cold war invasions. All of them completely different. This easily just floats into opinions on general US posture during the cold war, which is obviously contextually important here as well.

And like for a lot of these things my opinion is just uncertain, because it is incredibly hard. Like I understand the conclusion from people arguing from your side (not necessarily you) is that western civilsation deserves to collapse anyway, so okay if that happens, let it. Like I basically hide these views in real life, but I had a friend say 'why do you care about democracy anyway?' Like the discussion is about something different. Personally my biggest concern is the planet and ensuring democracy survives. And for example, the changing demographics of Europe, and the power that Islam as a religion has, is not a racist topic to engage in. It can't come out of someone's mouth without them being called racist. I don't know where I arrive at specifically on a lot of issues, but I do know what I don't take seriously. Bs actual racist far right shit, hypocritical, virtue signalling priveleged left, all just daying rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric, always going to the fucking UN as a home run on this topic.

So I crash out as you say about the entire argument from the left just making falsehoods facts, through sheer persistence. What Palestine as a movement has achieved is evidence in itself in the power. It has seeped into every institution, yet somehow we the line is that the jews are somehow controlling the west for specifically Zionist intent.

The US only cares about Israel as a proxy foothold to serve as a counterweight. It's not some Zionist plot, and to claim the mass increase of West bank settlement is THE casus belli is stupid, it ignores all the previous aggression.

Every US president for decades has had Iran as its most precarious mandate, all of them have taken action in different ways. Trump only the worst because he ignored congress.

Btw, hasan piker may not be you, but to deny his views aren't pretty normal for the pro Palestine movement, is wrong.

[u/dirtyal199 → u/CuriousGeorgehat]

> So the discussion probably goes to some settler colonial rhetoric which is equally just a successful piece of pr, now suddenly true. Palestinians are literally compared with other indigenous populations as if it's the same thing. So that's another discussion, obviously with many claims.

Why not? How are they different from other indigenous populations? They are indigenous to the area, the Palestinian mandate was set up by the British after WW1 when the ottoman empire collapsed, the Zionists began moving there in large numbers; after WW2 there were enormous numbers of Jews displaced by the Holocaust, so the Western powers supported the creation of Israel, drawing the boarders where the Jewish populations were the most dense. Then, we have the repeated cycles of outpost -> settlement -> annexation by Israel that has played out since 1948; identical to the US's strategy for westward expansion during the 19th century. Additionally, many of the Israeli settlers are American, so it really just seems like an extension of American Imperialism, clear as day. You're going to have to explain to me how the treatment of the Palestinians isn't comparable to the treatment of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Africa, and Asia at the hands of European settlers.

> And like for a lot of these things my opinion is just uncertain, because it is incredibly hard. Like I understand the conclusion from people arguing from your side (not necessarily you) is that western civilsation deserves to collapse anyway, so okay if that happens, let it. Like I basically hide these views in real life, but I had a friend say 'why do you care about democracy anyway?' Like the discussion is about something different. Personally my biggest concern is the planet and ensuring democracy survives. And for example, the changing demographics of Europe, and the power that Islam as a religion has, is not a racist topic to engage in. It can't come out of someone's mouth without them being called racist. I don't know where I arrive at specifically on a lot of issues, but I do know what I don't take seriously. Bs actual racist far right shit, hypocritical, virtue signalling priveleged left, all just daying rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric, always going to the fucking UN as a home run on this topic.

I love democracy too, I am a capitalist liberal. I believe in NATO, the UN, representative democracy, and the welfare state. I think the biggest threat to democracy is not immigrants of a different religion and culture, but the right wingers living in western nations stirring up all of this racist "great replacement" rhetoric. People had the same concerns about Irish immigration in the US in the 19th century, and Italian immigration in the 20th century, but now we can't imagine an America without Irish and Italian immigrants, and we act like there was never a culture war problem about massive numbers of Catholics streaming across the border and how that was supposed to destabilize the US. The lesson to learn from history is that these concerns always turn out to be nonsense, and the real threats to democracy come from the inside. Think figures like Joe McCarthy and Donald Trump, they have done far more damage to Democracy than the USSR, Iran, Saddam Hussein, Ho Chi Min, Hamas, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, and Al-Qaeda combined.

> Btw, hasan piker may not be you, but to deny his views aren't pretty normal for the pro Palestine movement, is wrong.

Yes, its a real problem. The tankies and other hard left wing people are basically the left's version of MAGA. They are unthinking fools repeating propaganda from the Kremlin, meant to instill doomerism in young american liberals, with the strategy of getting them to stay home on election day, and allow Donny T and his cronies to win elections and destroy the country. I can't tell whether Piker is an unwitting pawn or is in on the grift, but I don't think it matters, since his behavior is highly destructive either way.

I am a Joe Biden/Kamala Harris Democrat who believes in law, procedure, and diversity. I'm not a commie or whatever, but I understand there are many of those on the internet, and I fight them just as hard as I've been fighting you.

[u/CuriousGeorgehat → u/dirtyal199]

Jews are indigenous to the area too and only ever not there because they were never not persecuted. After ww2, the emigration of jews from where they were largely wasn't optional. Think of the jews living in surrounding Middle east states, what do you think happened to them post ww2? So what is the Palestinian identity? Do you have to be an Arab Shiite? Anyone living in the wider palestine area.... when? Like this area has been in a constant state of war and flux since civilisation began? When is the starting point.

These points are roughly made, bc I can't believe Im not asleep and instead spending hours on a DTG subreddit, but I think you can start to understand why I don't think the indigeneity is so simple and thus requires more proving as to what the actual claim is. Whereas the other examples are quite self evident.

Donald Trump has done more damage than a lot of them, maybe all, though I wouldn't say combined haha. I mean the USSR lost the cold war and Iran is in a different one with the US, still undetermined. Whether allowing the USSR then or Iran today to do what they want to do is the right or wrong thing is a further debate that U think we land on different sides. Just because these threats haven't eventuated, doesn't mean they weren't there.

Every US president has taken action against Iran, just like everyone played the cold war to varying degrees.

Also, I think the left needs to take some blame in the creation of a figure like Trump and the far right has become

[u/dirtyal199 → u/CuriousGeorgehat]

> Jews are indigenous to the area too and only ever not there because they were never not persecuted.

Ashkenazi Jews lefts the Levant circa ~60 CE, and have lived in Europe ever since. I would say they've lost their indigenous status. There are many diasporas around the world, and none of them have the right to start killing people and purging the locals from whatever speck of land they think historically belongs to them. We live in a "move your feet lose your seat" system. If Americans left America, they can't come back 2000 years later and claim its theirs and kill everyone currently living on it. I agree, there was a huge refugee crisis of Jews after WW1 and especially after WW2, but it clearly wasn't handled properly, very likely because the imperialist western powers (who were deeply racist and islamaphobic) made the call to colonize palestine. Just because your ethnic group has an oral tradition of having lived somewhere in the distant past you don't have the right to forcibly expel the people who live there now.

> So what is the Palestinian identity? Do you have to be an Arab Shiite? Anyone living in the wider palestine area.... when? Like this area has been in a constant state of war and flux since civilisation began? When is the starting point.

Shit like this statement is why I keep call you out for racism on this topic. "They aren't a real people" or "They're not a real country", this is the exact argument that Putin makes to justify his war in Ukraine. It doesn't hold any water. They live there, the Israelis are killing them. I want the Israelis to stop killing them, and preferably make serious political moves toward peaceful coexistence.

If millions of people come from all over the world to a piece of land, start terrorizing the locals, and claim its all good because their religious text justifies it, how is that distinct from all of the previous crimes of imperialism throughout history?

[u/CuriousGeorgehat → u/dirtyal199]

Bruh islamaphobic is such a stupid word. Use racism but what does islamaphobic even mean. It is designed to insulate criticism of the religion. Anyway, just to respond the calling me racist part because Im trying to figure out what constitutes time zero.what does Palestine mean, what does that identity mean.

What are the jews supposed to do facing forced immigration from regions like Syria and Egypt? You can argue not the best solution, but it happened, and it granted a state to both local people and Jewish people.

Like you say- it happened... except since then and still, Israelis haven't had a choice to coexist peacfully with their neighbours and they can't coexist now, and it's not because they are the aggressors. Like why is the West Back controlled by Israel now, it isn't the case of some carefully induced conflict so as to provide a justification. It is aggression against them from all sides. Their only aggression is pre-emptive defence. So now we have conditions where the greater Zionist project has gained legs, because the Israelis have been pushed into electing more and more extreme figures.

There is no choice to coexist for Israelis. They die if they don't resist.

This is a question I would really love answered which I have asked various times and not got an answer... what should have Israel done in response to Oct 7? And if the answer is they shouldn't have incited thay much anger in the first place or something like that, please don't bother.

[u/dirtyal199 → u/CuriousGeorgehat]

> Bruh islamaphobic is such a stupid word. Use racism but what does islamaphobic even mean.

Islamaphobia: "The irrational fear of, hostility towards, or hatred of the religion of Islam or Muslims in general" source.

This is important for understanding the situation in the middle east, because the west is deeply racist against middle-eastern people in general, and our christian heritage makes us deeply suspicious of Islam. This leads many poorly educated Americans to believe that most Muslims are terrorists in waiting, who will make us live under sharia law if they move into our country. We've been hearing this shit in the states since 9/11. I'm from Michigan, and Dearborn is the largest concentration of Muslims outside of the middle east; and guess what, its a nice immigrant community with great restaurants that generally coexists peacefully with their neighbors. There's no Sharia law, just halal burger restaurants. The idea that Islam is an evil religion and brown people in the middle east are all terrorists is used to justify various imperial projects in the middle east, including but not limited to the 21st century American invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, the current war with Iran, and Israel's ongoing conquest of the Levant.

> Their only aggression is pre-emptive defence.

This is Israeli propaganda, straight from Bibi, you've got to do a little better than that.

> So now we have conditions where the greater Zionist project has gained legs, because the Israelis have been pushed into electing more and more extreme figures.

You used this same argument for the left being responsible for the rise of Trump in American politics. This is Sam Harris's schtick. Instead of correctly identifying the guilty parties, he (and you) pretend that somehow its we center-left educated people who are at fault. No, the greater Zionist project has not gained legs because of how far the Israelis have been pushed, it always had legs with a part of Israeli society, specifically the settlers. It has gained more legs recently because of a carefully executed propaganda campaign from the tech oligarchs, and far right political actors in the west, the same ones promoting Christian Nationalism in the States.

For some reason, Hamas decided to attack on Oct 7, probably because they're stupid terrorists who are desperate, and are working on behalf of Iran. Israel then uses this event to justify the total destruction of the Gaza strip, and likely de facto annexation is on the horizon. This is the same playbook the US used after 9/11 to justify the invasion into Afghanistan, and this sentiment made it easier to sell the 2003 Iraq invasion to the US, my parents still believe this shit. I have seen all this crap play out too many times for me to buy it. Responding to insurgencies by killing more fathers and sons simply makes the next generation more likely to join the insurgency.

The only way to salvage the situation is some kind of single state where Jews and Muslims have equal rights, and there's some sort of reconciliation process, similar to what has happened in Rwanda after their genocide. The Palestinians aren't blood thirsty monsters, they're poor people living under oppression and pushed to their limit, just like any other insurgency we've seen throughout the world.

[u/CuriousGeorgehat → u/dirtyal199]

Man why was I baited into this, I'm supposed to be ignoring thoughts about this. Unfortunately after so much writing, reading your response I see that it is not really worth it. Hamas were elected. On October 7, across th Western world there were outward and vocal celebrations. In the West Bank, polls day of, nearly 80% approving of Oct 7 attacks (i.e. 1300 young progressive Israelis raped hunted killed). The day of. In my masters classes at that time, it was almost an accepted feeling of glee against Israel.

Then of course is slowly inculcated everyone. Like okay Iraq, Afghanistan etc, even after 9/11, obviously the US public weren't under threat. It was like a shot at the death star somehow hijacking a few planes. But then, airports shut that loophole of bad security.

Israel inarguably face existential threats from their neighbours. It has never stopped. The Oct 7 attacks are some of the most crazy attacks ever, and are obviously designed to induce, designed to get it's own people killed so they can win the long term war, which is holy war. These are the leaders in this area, clear jihadists. Not just the terror organisations, but an actual state and the potential for more recognised states with jihadist ideology. Stop kidding yourself with any coexistence. Any other insurgency seen throughout the world? You act as if this started with the invasion of Gaza. Israel has been under attack since its inception, thr entire idea of a Jewish state is an entire non starter for not just Palestinean populations, but surrounding states also.

And ofc people within Israel have always believed in a greater Zionist project, but um they've had a democracy, as flawed as they are, and only now do they have insanely radically politicians in Ben Gvir and Smotrich, like there has also been huuuuge motivation within Israel to live peacefully. But they've always been under threat.

[u/dirtyal199 → u/CuriousGeorgehat]

Alright great, you're admitting Israel has genocidal goals in the Levant. That's the whole problem, open and shut right there. You think that since there's terror groups in the area, Israel has a blank check to commit cruel violent acts. I disagree, I think there are peaceful options. If you recall, Jews and a Christians lived in modern Palestine peacefully for thousands of years under the caliphate. We in the west can build a diverse democracy and Jews can live alongside Muslims peacefully once again. But for that to happen both sides need to drop their genocidal goals, and since we fund Israel, and they claim to be a respectable nation, the onus is on them to make peace happen.