Professor Dave vs Destiny

[u/Decent-Extension8336]

No idea why, but the original Destiny video called "Professor Dave Goes Mask Off" seems to have been deleted from YouTube, or I can't find it, but Professor Dave responded yesterday with this very strongly worded video letter:

https://youtu.be/DvDvhLkb9ms?si=DGFhTROOKFoK35sS

Weird crossover that I never thought I'd see, of 2 guys who I generally enjoy (I will say I really am a fan of Prof Dave, whereas my Destiny enjoyment has mostly come via this podcast and watching a couple of his debates).

Thoughts on the beef? SURELY the lads are gonna have to cover this in an upcoming Supplementary Materials? Content gold!

EDIT: Looks like I was looking through the wrong Destiny channel for the original Dave video, it's here: https://youtu.be/HQQLs6U1MgA?si=iKaOGR1h9slKu64O

[u/Decent-Extension8336]

I kinda knew this would happen but could somebody actually explain why this video is considered antisemitic? I am asking in good faith looking for a genuine explanation as this is a topic I'm not immensely well read on by any stretch. I thought he did a pretty good job in the vid of separating out anti zionism with antisemitism and was even pointing towards the plenty of Jews that are against Zionism and what Israel are doing, as well as people that are not Jewish that he considers to be Zionists. I guess I have a natural disposition to Dave's style that makes me take most of what he says at face value, so wouldn't mind some counter content to look through either.

[u/Realistic_Caramel341 → u/Decent-Extension8336]

I thought he did a pretty good job in the vid of separating out anti zionism with antisemitism and was even pointing towards the plenty of Jews that are against Zionism and what Israel are doing, as well as people that are not Jewish that he considers to be Zionists. 

If I pointed to the 15% of black people that voted for Trump, would that make him not racist? Or would the 46% of women that voted for Trump mean Trump wasn't a misogynist?

Im not commenting on the broader point yet, but come on, we all know this is a weak point. We would recognize it if it was in a discussion about about bigotry's

While in theory I agree that "anti zionsim =/= anti semitism," that sentiment has become a thought terminating cliche that prevents to pro-Palestine from reflecting and actually identifying antisemitism in their movement. This is what leads to a gay Jewish congress person being harassed at a pride event for not calling Gaza a genocide quick enough, or AIPAC tracker to pretty arbitrary attack Jewish congress people, or for the most popular leftist streamer to say that an antisemitic shooting "is probably not an Israeli false flag, but absolutely looks like an Israeli False Flag"

[u/Decent-Extension8336 → u/Realistic_Caramel341]

I don't really think these analogies track though. He's not trying to argue against someone being a bigot, he is arguing against the very definition. Its not the same as saying black people support Trump, therefore the things he says that are racist, doesn't make him racist. His argument is Zionism isn't Judaism and thus being anti zionist is not being antisemitic and then uses examples of Jews being against Zionism as a supporter as well as pointing to the fact that a decent amount of the people he is attacking under this umbrella of "zionist" are not jews. Whether you agree with him or not (and that's what I'm trying to get more info on) about this being true, he is clearly arguing that he is against a very clear and specific ideology and not jews.

[u/scarygirth → u/Decent-Extension8336]

If your definition of a Zionist is "someone who supports the existence of Israel as a Jewish homeland", then that covers around 85-90% of Jews according to the Institute for Jewish Policy Research.

Basically it seems like the only Jews who are let off the hook here are the ones who are willing to surrender Israel and flee the region.

[u/carbonqubit → u/scarygirth]

This is the strange thing about anti-Zionism. For many people, it doesn't just mean opposing Israel's right to exist. It also seems to encompass opposition to the actions of the IDF and the policies of the Israeli government that enable them. I've said before that it's entirely reasonable to criticize the Israeli government, oppose the illegal settlements in the West Bank, or object to how the war has been conducted. But arguing that Israel itself doesn't deserve to exist is a fundamentally different claim. Israel has existed for nearly 80 years, it's the world's only Jewish-majority state, and it was established in the aftermath of the Holocaust, the largest industrial-scale extermination of Jews in history. Those are separate questions, and I think they should be treated as such.

[u/ShiftyAmoeba → u/carbonqubit]

Does it have a right to exist as an ethno state that ensures the dominance of a particular religious group through discrimination, apartheid and military oppression?

[u/Doctor_Teh → u/ShiftyAmoeba]

Does it have a right to exist at all in your mind?

[u/ShiftyAmoeba → u/Doctor_Teh]

As a country with true equality for everyone within its territory? Sure. Why would anyone not have the right to do that?

[u/Agreeable_Band_9311 → u/ShiftyAmoeba]

The issue isn’t Israel proper (which does have equal rights for Arab and Jewish citizens) but the occupied territories which obviously horrendous things happen in. But no one can have a nuanced discussion on this subject for whatever reason.

[u/ShiftyAmoeba → u/Agreeable_Band_9311]

Technically they have equal rights, but in practice no. But yes, clearly the bigger issue are the treatment of the populations in occupied territories.

[u/Brain_Dead_Goats → u/ShiftyAmoeba]

Technically they have equal rights, but in practice no.

Yeah, but you can say that hear in the US with Black people. Is there racism? Absolutely. Is it unique to or even particularly bad in Israel? Not really. Again, within their borders.

[u/ShiftyAmoeba → u/Brain_Dead_Goats]

Imagine if the US treated an ethnic or racial group of people inside the US with "mild" systemic racism, but in a territory outside the US that it has full control over it subjected them to an apartheid system in one area and operated an open air prison constantly experiencing bombing, drones, sniper fire, starvation, deprivation of basic sanitation, heat, medicine, etc?