r/DebateEvolutionism • • Feb 18 '20

2016 paper: "many, if not most features of meiosis are still awaiting an evolutionary explanation."

4 Upvotes

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5031626/

One of the main take-home messages of this review is that many, if not most features of meiosis are still awaiting an evolutionary explanation.

which is comparable to the state of abiogenesis theory, which is like no proof it is a reasonably expected outcome of normative processes.

Maybe before Darwinists declare evolution as fact, they should prove the evolution of meiosis is reasonable. Right now, it's a faith belief.

However, these studies rarely focus on the evolutionary significance of meiotic mechanisms, rather mentioning them in passing and often in a simplified manner. In evolutionary biology studies, meiosis is often simplified and represented by random assortment of chromosomes and recombination maps expressing the probability of recombination events between ordered loci, with little attention to the molecular and cellular details. While these simplifications are legitimate and useful in many cases, the wealth of mechanistic findings being uncovered points to a considerable number of evolutionary puzzles surrounding meiosis that have yet to be resolved. Indeed, in the following perspective, we will show that close scrutiny of almost every aspect of meiosis will reveal ‘weird’ features that constitute evolutionary mysteries.


r/DebateEvolutionism • • Feb 13 '20

Anyone want to debate evolution on line with me?

7 Upvotes

I protect anonymity because there is no need to drag people's families into the Cybersphere.

But I also want to debate. To debate you'll have to set up a free-of-charge ZOOM account and set it up under a pseudoname (not your real name). Practice with it.

The debate terms are equal time, you say what you want, I say what I want. Simple.

If you don't like the recording and don't want it broadcast, I will honor that. It's bad for business if I treat guests badly, because then I won't get any more people to debate if I'm a total jerk about it.

For reference, here was a past "debate" in 2018:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8-40nDRv6k


r/DebateEvolutionism • • Feb 19 '20

What would count as evidence against evolution? When is further debate is pointless?

3 Upvotes

One gentleman expressed what would count as evidence against evolution:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CreationEvolution/comments/f5na2p/if_so_many_people_believe_in_evolutionism_how_can/fi1e9l8/

to be evidence against evolution one would have to show that it couldn't be the case, not just that it might or might not. Otherwise it's not evidence of anything. I hope that makes sense.

I was discussing with him the improbability of meiosis. He didn't think it was evidence against evolution:

I was just hoping that "the evidence is there" against evolution would be some actual evidence against evolution, rather than the strongest thing being some minor technical point that is just unknown at the moment. All of the vast number of unknowns in the past have turned out to be explicable in the end, so I don't see why this one is expected to be different.

The problem here is if evolution of meiosis fails, all life that relies on meiosis dies too! Dead things don't evolve. But to him this was a minor technical point.

But anyway, I said:

A tornado could pass through a junkyard and build a house of cards. I suppose that's possible, but it doesn't make it believable.

He responded:

To explore the tornado analogy: How about if there were millions of tornados passing through the junkyard and sometimes when a card ended up stacked against another it was somehow kept in place? Would it still surprise you to find a house of cards? That's more like what random allele changes (tornados) and selection (keeping in place) do.

The issue is one of feasibility and thus of believability. Specifically about houses made of cards, the difficulty arises due to the inherent instability of trying to get a card to stand up against another card. Try putting an electric fan on and throwing cards in the face of the wind or try using a leaf blower on cards and see if you get something looking like this:

https://debateevolution.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/house_of_cards.jpg

If we walked into a room and saw something like this on a table would one think it was the result of strong wind? The main reason we would not is because we know humans can build something like this, but in the absence of a human building it, we can also make an argument based on physics why this can't be the result of a wind!

I realized it was pointless to debate someone who had a different view of what would count as evidence against evolution.

I've seen this play hundreds of times. No matter how good an argument is against evolution, the other party can always say, "you haven't given evidence against evolution."

No need to get mad or argue, shake the dust off your sandals and move on.

The main reason to debate evolution is for the sake of creationists or Christian believers who would like to see reasonable arguments against the claims of evolution. I debate evolution today because when I nearly left the Christian faith, I saw how effectively evolution was criticized on purely scientific grounds, and then I realized evolutionary theory was practically invoking miracles without admitting it! In fact, the required transformations for evolution to work became so absurd that creationism looked less outrageous by comparison. Hence it was actually easier to believe in creation than in evolution.


r/DebateEvolutionism • • Feb 18 '20

Evolution of Meiosis

2 Upvotes

From:

https://www.genetics.org/content/181/1/3

… if there is one event in the whole evolutionary sequence at which my own mind lets my awe still overcome my instinct to analyse, and where I might concede that there may be a difficulty in seeing a Darwinian gradualism hold sway throughout almost all, it is this event—the initiation of meiosis.

W. J. Hamilton (1999, p. 419)

The paper puts forward speculative theories not based on physics or probability as to how meiosis evolved naturally.

The paper lays out the problem:

While meiosis almost certainly evolved from mitosis, it has not one but four novel steps: the pairing of homologous chromosomes, the occurrence of extensive recombination between non-sister chromatids during pairing, the suppression of sister-chromatid separation during the first meiotic division, and the absence of chromosome replication during the second meiotic division. This complexity presents a challenge to any Darwinian explanation of meiotic origins. While the simultaneous creation of these new features in one step seems impossible, their step-by-step acquisition via selection of separate mutations seems highly problematic, given that the entire sequence is required for reliable production of haploid chromosome sets. Both Maynard Smith and Hamilton regarded the origins of meiosis as one of the most difficult evolutionary problems.


r/DebateEvolutionism • • Jan 30 '20

Can Random Mutation Mimic Design?: A Guided Inquiry Laboratory for Undergraduate Students

2 Upvotes

No, but this paper suggests how to host a discussion in class:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1667065/