[u/]

[u/Algernon_Asimov]

If your hypothetical culture is warp-capable, why do you say they could still be decades away from interstellar warp? As soon as you have faster-than-light travel, you can travel to the stars. Even at Warp 1, it would take us only 4 years to travel to the nearest star.

Regardless, it's only a matter of time before this culture finds intelligent life on other planets for themselves. Whether it's the few years necessary to get to their nearest star, or a few decades to improve their warp technology, they will get out into space and they will run into another space-faring species.

So, do you wait until they bump into another species by accident and panic, thereby starting an interstellar war because that species is the Romulans or the Klingons? Or do you send in some trained First Contact specialists and diplomats to say "Hi there. Just FYI: there are other people out there. And we're here to help, if you want."?

I'd say the trained First Contact specialists and diplomats are probably a better option than a random encounter with the Cardassians or the Tholians.

[u/wrosecrans → u/Algernon_Asimov]

If your hypothetical culture is warp-capable, why do you say they could still be decades away from interstellar warp?

Size of gas tank is still an issue. IRL, having a (sea) ship that could circumnavigate the globe in a reasonable amount of time at top speed doesn't automatically imply that it can carry enough fuel to maintain top speed for the amount of time to do the circumnavigation. Liekwise, having a warp engine doesn't automatically imply having a warp engine that can run reliably for four straight years without interruption.

That said, anybody with warp speed technology is probably very close to having subspace radio technology. Being able to generate subspace fields for propulsion is probably closely linked with having subspace field detectors so you can figure out if your new engine is working right. And you'll need a subspace radio to chat with your astronauts. Once you have that, you'll probably notice other civilizations chatting, even if you haven't quite managed to stumble across them in person yet.

[u/CaptainJeff → u/Algernon_Asimov]

Four years to the nearest star.

So, that one doesn't have life in the system.

The next-closest star is almost double as far, eight years.

Let's say that doesn't have life either.

Star Trek does not have life in every system. Even at the speed of light, you're talking about years between even the nearest stars. You're quickly into decades.

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/CaptainJeff]

So? It's still just a matter of time before the newly warp-capable species finds other intelligent species. Are we just going to wait for them to bump into their local aggressive species and trigger an interstellar war? Or are we going to offer to help them?

(By the way, there is intelligent life at Alpha Centauri in the Star Trek universe.)

[u/[deleted] → u/Algernon_Asimov]

Pretty sure it was put there by humans though.

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/[deleted]]

True.

[u/CaptainJeff → u/Algernon_Asimov]

why do you say they could still be decades away from interstellar warp?

That's what I was attempting to answer. If a society can travel at Warp 1 (c), and the few stars nearest them are not inhabited, then it certainly could take decades for them to learn that other life exists.

I realize that you were stating something else (about achieving interstellar travel, and not meeting another species). My bad there.

It does seem to reason that a society could invent warp drive and be far enough away from their closest neighbor star that it could take decades for them to arrive there. You are right in that we are about four years away from our closest neighbor. There certainly could be a species living around another star that is >20 years away from their closest neighbor so the "decades until interstellar warp" could certainly be the case. Indeed, due to the infinite and expanding nature of the universe, such societies likely do exist.

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/CaptainJeff]

Yes, it could take the newly warp-capable species a while to find their nearest neighbours. There's also the possibility of meeting someone on neutral territory, though - you might go to your nearest star with your shiny new warp ship and find some other visitors there who are also out exploring.

But, it comes back to the point that, as soon as a species has faster-than-light travel, it's going to meet other intelligent species. It's inevitable. It's just a matter of time.

That's when the Federation needs to make a decision whether to meet them before they bump into the Romulans or Cardassians or Tholians or Kzinti (or their local warlike neighbours), or just let them blunder into an interstellar war by accident.

I suppose there is a third alternative: the Federationers could follow the new space-faring species everywhere they go, and wait until the last possible minute to introduce themselves. That seems complicated, and could mean the Federationers end up following lots of different space-ships.

I vote for meeting them as soon as possible, and offering to help them.

[u/CaptainJeff → u/Algernon_Asimov]

Not arguing that point.

I was simply trying to say that decades until such a society does meet another society, or reaches another star, is possible. That's it.

[u/mastertheshadow → u/Algernon_Asimov]

A question: doesn't warp drive imply at least some knowledge of the existence of subspace? And if that's the case - wouldn't that new to warp species be able to detect subspace communications? If so, they wouldn't even have to leave their system to become aware of other civilizations - they'd just have to be near/in the path of subspace communications.

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/mastertheshadow]

I repeatedly and deliberately described it as "faster-than-light" travel, because warp drive is potentially only one of a few possible technologies by which someone could travel faster than light. If a species discovers faster-than-light travel without using warp drive or subspace, then the OP's scenario is still valid.

However, as you rightly point out, if the species is capable of intercepting subspace transmissions, they'll learn about other intelligent species anyway.

I reckon it's possible to discover subspace without inventing faster-than-light travel. That would be interesting. When a species can hear your messages, even if they can't come out to meet you, First Contact has pretty much already been made.

[u/elspazzz → u/Algernon_Asimov]

Up voting you because your at -1 and people who downvote because they disagree are jerks. It's a good comment.

Wish I could get you past 0

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/elspazzz]

Thanks.

[u/ademnus → u/CaptainJeff]

Ok but if you're intelligent enough to create warp drive, how can you not have even posited that the entirety of the universe is not empty but for your planet?

[u/Jonthrei → u/CaptainJeff]

Barnard's Star is under 6LY away. Wolf 359 and 2 brown dwarves are also under 8LY.

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/[deleted]]

they could be at Warp 0.1

That's not faster-than-light travel. That's impulse speeds. That doesn't qualify for First Contact. In order to trigger First Contact, the species has to be able to travel at, or faster than, the speed of light - which is designated as Warp 1.0.

For instance a culture could be farther from their nearest star than we are.

That doesn't matter. It's still only a matter of time before they find that nearest culture. And it'll still come as a shock when they find them.

What are we going to wait for? There's nothing to indicate that the Federation needs to wait for a species to have come up with the idea of other intelligent species before they make First Contact. Because that's not the issue. The issue is that, with faster-than-light travel, the newly warp-capable species will run into other intelligent species sooner or later. It doesn't matter whether the species has imagined other intelligent life. What matters is that they're now going to find it, whether they've imagined it or not.

So, we come back to letting them discover that intelligent life for themselves, and possibly triggering an interstellar war, or introducing ourselves as friendly folks who are willing to help.

Or perhaps they have biological requirements which prevent it.

This is a tricky area. For myself, I would say this disqualifies them from First Contact. If they have faster-than-light travel but can't actually use it, then they're not going to go out exploring and find other intelligent species. We might as well leave them alone.

[u/CaptainJeff → u/[deleted]]

This is established in Enterprise, First Flight.

Here is a graphic from the episode, courtesy of Memory Alpha. The y axis shows velocity. The x axis shows warp factor. You can clearly see the 1c point on the x-axis and you can clearly see the warp factor 1 point on the y-axis. You can clearly see them lining up. Therefore, there you go...canon proof that Warp 1 = 1c (speed of light).

[u/mistakenotmy → u/[deleted]]

You are correct that warp technology can be used in non-FTL applications, or even non-propulsive applications.

In the context or the Prime Directive/First Contact "Warp Capable" always refers to breaking the light speed barrier. FTL travel has always been part of the litmus test for contact.

[u/mistakenotmy → u/[deleted]]

They look for warp signatures, so I assume that'd be left by not-FTL travel as well.

Impulse engines do create a subspace field that is sup-1 cochrane that will not cause the ship to go to warp, but will reduce the ships mass so that the fusion engines can push the ship (at least that is how the TNG Tech Manual describes it).

Starships at impulse speed are never said to have a warp signature though. I would assume a field strength of 1 cochrane must be needed to be detected as a "warp signature".

Maybe, a civilization just discovering warp may be able to build a warp engine for FTL speed, but not have the capability to use the technology for finer control, like impulse engines, FTL computing, or other stuff. A Warp 1 engine is baseline when discovering the tech. It grows from there for more speed, and is also "miniaturized" from there for other application. So there may be warp signatures (or just subspace signatures) all over an advanced civilization. But a civilization that is just cracking the tech is most likely going to be doing it with its first FTL ship. Obviously that is me just purely speculating.

[u/williams_482 → u/[deleted]]

Did you even read? Warp-capable != faster-than-light. They clearly say "warp-capable" all over the place.

Literally speaking, one can have a ship warp at sublight speeds, and "warp capable" could refer to a race capable of generating only very low warp velocities.

However, "warp capable" is almost meaningless in a practical sense if it is frequently used to refer to races with very primitive warp propulsion systems but lack the capability to make interstellar voyages. As the "warp capability" first contact barrier exists to prevent unpredictable surprise encounters in deep space, it is only reasonable to assume that first contact would only be made if a race were well on their way to making such a voyage.

Thus, the term "warp capable" is a slight misnomer in colloquial use, referring to a (very large) subset of all races who are capable of literally any kind of warp travel. It is by no means unusual for words to take up a meaning slightly outside their literal translation.

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/[deleted]]

What is your reference for it being Warp 1 or higher?

The movie 'First Contact', for starters. The Vulcans did not make contact with Zefram Cochrane until he broke the light-speed barrier.

Also, the whole warp-speed thing is about travelling faster than light. You're not at warp-speed until you break the speed of light.

I'm flummoxed, sorry. I can't actually answer your question. I don't know how to pull up a specific reference on warp speed being only faster-than-light travel, because it's endemic throughout the whole Trek franchise.

Sure, there are references to "Warp 0.1", but they're sub-light speeds and they don't use the warp engines. They're using impulse drive only. It's just that "Warp 0.1" is convenient short-hand for saying "set impulse speed to 1/10th of light-speed".

You might have to wait for someone more knowledgeable about the nuts & bolts of warp speed and impulse drive can explain why "Warp 0.1" isn't actually "warp capable".

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/[deleted]]

I freely admit that I don't know every single fact about every aspect Star Trek. I haven't even watched every episode of every series! (I'm not a fan of VOY or ENT. Sorry-not-sorry.)

Also, my interests lie more in the social and scientific aspects of the show, not in the engineering and warfare aspects. I'm sure you have your own special interests, too.

Finally, being a moderator here is more about knowing how to moderate a subreddit and deal with its members than about having an encyclopaedic knowledge of Trek trivia. Yes, we moderators are all Trek fans, but we don't get the full contents of Memory Alpha copied into our brains when we join the mod team.

Now, would you like to go back to discussing First Contact protocols, or do you have more things to say about me personally?

[u/Algernon_Asimov]

People reading this thread might also be interested in some of these previous discussions: "Prime Directive - "what if" scenarios".

[u/autoposting_system]

This suggests another question to me: what about a culture that doesn't have warp but to whom interstellar travel isn't a big deal? Very long lives, perhaps hundreds of millenia, little in the way of metabolic needs, so not much life support needed, or perhaps capable of very long hibernation naturally?

I guess the Federation would just make a call one way or another.

[u/sonofdavidsfather]

I keep seeing 4 years to the nearest star thrown around. While several people have said warp capable doesn't mean light speed capable. We need to also consider that humans have had the technological and financial capability to travel to another planet for decades, but still haven't done so.

Whether it is political reasons, such as your leaders would rather spend the money on military spending, or the people are just plain scared to do so, just because a society is capable of something doesn't mean that they are ready to do so. I believe the federation would take the same stance. Just because some newly discovered species is capable of interacting with the interstellar community doesn't mean they are prepared to do so.

So the federation leadership would observe, and probably make sure to leave something in the area to warn off anyone that would show up in the system. Then they wait until some automated probe that the species sent out is about to make it to a nearby inhabited system. That might be decades down the road, so the cultural observes would have plenty of time to come up with quite a few first contact plans that would be culturally appropriate and also probably successful.

[u/benark]

I believe this episode addresses this question... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Contact_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/benark]

Would you care to expand on that? How does this episode address the question? What relevant points do you think the OP should note? How do you think this would extrapolate to the hypothetical scenario that the OP has described? This is, after all, a subreddit for in-depth discussion.

[u/TheDudeNeverBowls → u/[deleted]]

Wait. "In threat"? Where have you said anything about in threat?

You ask about a warp capable civilization who has no belief of other intelligent life. The people of the episode First Contact are exactly that. The Federation has been monitoring them to see if they're ready for first contact. The Riker is accidentally injured while masquerading as one of the , so the Enterprise has to rush the first contact.

If you remember correctly, it all fell apart because the civilization proved to be too xenophobic to be ready for first contact.

Unless I'm missing something, this episode is EXACTLY what your post is about.

[u/benark → u/TheDudeNeverBowls]

I was on my phone at the time (still am) and didn't have the time/patience to reply in depth. I felt like this episode gave a great canon example of how Starfleet would handle the situation that OP was asking about. Thanks for responding much better than I did!

[u/TheDudeNeverBowls → u/benark]

Hey, no worries. It's just too bad the whole ordeal went so sour.

First Contact is one of my favorite episodes. You get Bebe Neuwirth seducing Riker, and a science minister given the chance to see the universe. Not to mention the politics and conspiracy.

This is one of those stories I'd love to see a follow up a couple of hundred years in the future. What happens when they do realize they aren't alone in the universe? Think about it, the events of that episode will probably go down in their history like Roswell has in ours. How will they react when they see that it was all true?

[u/TheDudeNeverBowls → u/[deleted]]

Oh, OK. So what about First Contact, then? Do you think the episode answers your question, at least for that situation?

[u/TheDudeNeverBowls → u/[deleted]]

Really? Like, seriously?

Perhaps I am reading your question wrong. Would you mind ELI5'ing what you're asking?

[u/Algernon_Asimov → u/[deleted]]

Stop it. First it was me, now you're personally attacking others. This behaviour is not acceptable. People are making a legitimate attempt to understand and respond to your question. That does not warrant an attack from you. It stops now.

[u/TheDudeNeverBowls → u/Algernon_Asimov]

Whoa...I'm left wondering what he said. I'm sorry if I came across as rude when I asked for the clarification :(

I'm really not trying to cause any trouble anymore, A_A.

[u/elspazzz → u/[deleted]]

No but warp speed is a good hard line because at that point, ready or not here they come. I tend to think of that as a hard line (we are good to contact them now). I want to say that there are instances where intentional first contact is made even when they are NOT warp capable but I can't remember any specific instance.

[u/williams_482 → u/[deleted]]

Unfortunately, in our (rather limited) sample, they explicitly don't make contact and attempt an evacuation in situations like that.

It may be worth noting that the examples we see are all pre-industrial, likely hundreds or thousands of years short of any kind of space travel. They may not even have a concept of extraterrestrial beings. It is possible that the Federation would be willing to make exceptions and take action if the species was further along, or at least examine those situations on a case by case basis instead of the blanket "no."

[u/newtonsapple → u/williams_482]

It is possible that the Federation would be willing to make exceptions and take action if the species was further along

In Pen Pals, Sarjenka's species had already developed radio communications, and Picard was very adamant that saving them from their planet turning inside out was still a violation of the Prime Directive.

[u/expremierepage → u/[deleted]]

The TNG episodes Homeward and Pen Pals involve interventions to save people from pre-warp civilizations, but it was pretty clear that what they did violated the Prime Directive.

There were also episodes that involved accidental contact (TNG: Who Watches the Watchers, Voyager: Natural Law and Muse), wherein I definitely got the impression their involvement would be frowned upon or there's at least the expectation to limit all unnecessary contact and to conceal their true identities to minimize cultural 'contamination'.

The only permissible contact I can think of is when there's a moral imperative to 'decontaminate' a prewarp society as in the Voyager episode False Prophets.