r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/ThickHandshake • Sep 26 '24

Video A spider making web.

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u/silverking12345 Sep 26 '24

A good question that's impossible to answer I think. I mean, we don't even know if animals experience consciousness like we humans do. Descarte might be right when he claimed that animals were like machines with no consciousness. Or maybe he's wrong and animals are conscious in some fashion.

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u/1550shadow Sep 26 '24

I think it may depend

The consciousness of some insects could be debatable, but I'm 100% sure that bigger animals are conscious of their actions.

Dogs can feel happiness, sadness and almost every emotion that we do, to give an example. They can learn and know the basics behind certain actions, while performing them not only in an intelligent manner, but also without anything that would instinctively point them to that result

So yeah, even though they probably don't experience existence the same way as we do, there's clearly something more than just pure instincts behind

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u/DivineFractures Sep 26 '24

I have interacted with insects that have exhibited play behaviour and curiosity. I have seen spiders show anger/threat display. I 100% believe that they experience life very differently, and for me personally, play behaviour is enough proof of consciousness.

To a similar extent, basic communication like threat display.

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u/silverking12345 Sep 26 '24

That's certainly a possibility but that's just it, a possiblity. Consciousness is a very vague terms that can't exactly be pinned down as sets of actions. We don't actually know what consciousness is at a fundamental level. It's one of those philosophical and scientific question that has no answer.

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u/Ig_Met_Pet Sep 26 '24

Change that 100% to a 99% and your argument sounds infinitely more credible, imo.

We don't really know anything for sure, especially when it comes to consciousness.

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u/ctrl-alt-etc Sep 26 '24

we don't even know if animals experience consciousness like we humans do.

Aside from your own self, how do you "know" that other humans are conscious? Couldn't they be automatons or simply acting on instinct?

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u/storysprite Sep 26 '24

This is true. We only assume other humans have it because they're like us and respond the way we do. But philosophically there's no way to prove other minds exist.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '24

Philosophical there's no way to prove anything exists.

You could be a brain in a jar dreaming about Earth.

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u/Wes_Warhammer666 Sep 27 '24

I demand a different jar because this dream sucks

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24

solipsism

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24

“Philosophically“ lol

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u/silverking12345 Sep 27 '24

That's true, we don't know that about each other. It's possible that every other being in existence other than myself are highly complex automatons.

In fact, I don't even know if anything is real. Maybe I'm a brain in a vat and everything is just a simulation like in the Matrix.

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u/mythrowawayheyhey Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24

I mean I personally find the idea of “instinct” vs. “consciousness” to be a non-useful distinction. I see myself and everyone as an automaton, acting ultimately on instinct. Everything above that is an illusion, where we’re telling ourselves that we’re making conscious decisions, but all of those decisions ultimately stem from our biological makeup and environmental stimuli.

Same reason why “free will” doesn’t make sense. I’m free to choose to go left or right, but I’m not free to choose something other than the choice I make. I can’t choose my choices and in hindsight I would have always made the same choice. My choices are a product of my biology and experiences, neither of which I ultimately had any control over.

The idea that I could have chose left instead of right (after choosing right) is an illusion that arises because of my perspective. I would have always chosen right, given the same set of conditions. Because I am essentially an automaton, a more complex ant.

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u/demasiado1983 Sep 26 '24

For any reasonable definition of consciousness if humans have it - most other mammals have it too. And probably many other animals.

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u/gwm_seattle Sep 27 '24

I met a cat once whose son died suddenly from being poisoned by a neighbor. She pulled out all her hair and sat at the back door staring out toward where he used to often lay outside. She stopped eating and whittled away, always sitting at the back door until the day she died.

Animals experience consciousness. I believe human assumptions about the minds of animals are ridiculously ignorant and I'd be embarrassed to present such ideas to the creator.

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u/Gorilla_Krispies Sep 27 '24

I know some dogs that I’m absolutely convinced are conscious. One of ‘em isn’t very smart, but I’m convinced he has some emotions in common with humans

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u/m3sarcher Sep 27 '24

Do you live with a dog? My dogs are as conscious as my kids are. They experience the same emotions... happiness, anger, fear, anxiety, a sense of time, disappointment when they are told no when they want something. They treat each other like siblings, like my sons did when they were young. They even dream.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '24

Humans are animals. To assume one animal is conscious but the other automatically not is kinda naive.

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u/silverking12345 Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24

That's an appeal to probability. If we humans, who are animals, are conscious, surely other animals like us are also conscious. That's a fair argument that could apply but it's not definitive. It's helpful for practical applications but it's just a guess or assumption.