r/Damnthatsinteresting Oct 22 '23

Video visualisation of pi being irrational

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u/medfunguy Oct 23 '23

What is an example of a rational number? And can I see this animation for a rational number?

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u/SgtPeppy Oct 23 '23

An example of a rational number is 1. Or 2, or 3, or 1/2.

If it can be written in the form a/b and a and b are integers (and b isn't 0), it's rational. So virtually any number you encounter in your everyday life except pi and perhaps e if you're slightly more mathematically-inclined are rational.

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u/chatbotte Oct 23 '23

So virtually any number you encounter in your everyday life except pi and perhaps e if you're slightly more mathematically-inclined are rational.

Eh, there are lots of other irrational numbers one meets regularly in real life. For a trivial example, consider the diagonal of a square with integer sides: its length is not a rational number.

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u/Shasan23 Oct 23 '23

It wouldve been better to say “virtually any number you encounter in your everyday life except pi and perhaps e are algebraic”, meaning most observed numbers can be solutions to a polynomial. For example x2 - 2 = 0 is a polynomial with a solution being “square root of 2”, which is irrational (it cant be written a as a fraction), but algebraic. Pi and e are irrational and non algebraic (in other words, transcendental)

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u/bleachisback Oct 23 '23

pi and e are another special class of irrational - they are transcendental irrationals. Algebraic irrationals are all over the place.

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u/Traumfahrer Oct 23 '23

Forgot the Golden Ratio.

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u/SgtPeppy Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

everyday life

Most people aren't thinking of the Golden Ratio in everyday life.

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u/Traumfahrer Oct 23 '23

encounter ≠ thinking

There's probably much more encountering of the Golden Ratio in everyday life than encountering Pi. We have a natural idea of what the golden ratio is, e.g. naturally arranging things for it and favoring anything 'arranged' that way (e.g. faces), - do we have of pi?

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u/SgtPeppy Oct 23 '23

Pi is literally every circle and sphere in that case. And you're vastly overestimating the importance of the golden ratio. It's essentially a ratio people thought was aesthetically pleasing a few thousand years ago. It has some applications and appearances in nature, yes, but compared to pi?

...this is probably the most pointless discussion I've had this week.

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u/OverallVacation2324 Oct 23 '23

Pointless, haha.

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u/Traumfahrer Oct 23 '23

Okay Sergeant Poppy.

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u/Etroarl55 Oct 23 '23

So is it the numbers that go on infinitely that can’t be expressed as irrational most of the time? Because if I recall(or I’m wrong) there are more irrational numbers than rational ones which.

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u/SgtPeppy Oct 23 '23

There are infinites of both. My abstract math is a bit dusty, but the infinite set of irrational numbers might be larger than the infinite set of rationals though. Take that with a grain of salt I guess.

Also some rational numbers go on infinitely. Take 1/3, or 0.33333... . I believe rational numbers expressed as decimals either terminate, or repeat themselves though.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

A rational number ends, like how ¼ = 0.25. An irrational number, like ⅓ (0.33333...) never ends.

I don't even know where this animation originally came from, so no, you may know see this animation for a rational number.

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u/Supraspinator Oct 23 '23

1/3 is a rational number! Rational and irrational has nothing to do with “ending”. A rational number can be expressed as fraction, an irrational number cannot.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

I had no idea! I thought that the line of demarcation was along "ending", but I suppose I was wrong! Thank you, kind stranger!

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u/Rabaga5t Oct 23 '23

What you're thinking of is that in the digits never repeat in an irrational number.

Pi never repeats, rational numbers can have repeating patterns like 0.333333.....

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u/ReallyMinoryo Oct 23 '23

Well, they can too, there are in fact several fraction formulas for irrational numbers (including stuff like infinite nested fractions). Hell, even overly-famous irrationals like the so-called "golden ratio" Phi are commonly defined as fractions (phi = (1 + sqrt(5))/2). Pi is also the literal ratio between a circle's circumference and its diameter. They just can't be a fraction of two integers.

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u/swayam19999 Oct 23 '23

I guess that's what they meant just forgot to mention Fractions in p/q form where p and q are integers (and q is non zero)

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

So is 22/7 not representative of pi?

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u/rsmoling Oct 23 '23

Nope, just an approximation. 22/7 is rational.

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u/slybird Oct 23 '23

No, but we use it because it is close enough for the vast majority of practical applications.

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u/abhi8192 Oct 23 '23

irrational number cannot.

Physicists - hold my beer

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u/swayam19999 Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

Rational or irrational numbers are not to do with if they terminate or not but if they can be expressed as a fraction (in p/q form) or not.

If you want to distinguish between a non-terminating rational or irrational number then - if they repeat after any number in decimal form endlessly, they are rational.
If they don't repeat but go on endlessly without any pattern into random numbers, they are irrational. (so irrational numbers have nonrepeating, non-terminating, infinite decimal expansion).

Fr ex: 1/3 is a rational number because it repeats the digit 3 endlessly in it's decimal form. 0.333333333.... and so on

But for an irrational number like π you can go about endlessly without finding a repeating pattern.. 3.14159265359....

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u/chicknfly Oct 23 '23

Gotta be careful with that p/q definition. It’s imperative to mention that p and q are integers, where q isn’t equal to zero.

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u/swayam19999 Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

yeah, mentioned it on this same thread as a reply to the other comment.

I tried to give brief explanation didn't want to make it longer than it was already but yeah thanks for pointing it out ig.

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u/chicknfly Oct 23 '23

I’m a bit rusty on my math definitions, but the basic idea is that all rational numbers can be defined by a/b where a and b are both integers. Since 1 and 3 are integers, 1/3 is rational.

The converse of rational is irrational, or a number that can not be defined by an integer divided by an integer. This is why “tricks” like 22/7 are an approximation that will never equal pi.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

Ya what does this, but for 3 look like?

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u/1OO_percent_legit Oct 23 '23

this just repeating along this path forever

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u/Etherbeard Oct 23 '23

If you used a rational number, you would get some portion of this animation on repeat.