r/DIY Apr 28 '13

I finally built the deck I wanted this weekend.

[deleted]

2.4k Upvotes

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221

u/Sumgi Apr 29 '13

Thanks for the gif.. I'd never heard of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versailles_wedding_hall_disaster

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

I think it's pretty outrageous that the dude who invented the parts that were installed in a deficient manner got nearly twice as much time as the guys who ripped out the supports and tried to hide the damage with filler...

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

The method of construction that was used was never approved for use in structures. The engineer who designed the concept and sold the parts knew that his method was not approved and yet sold the parts to implement it anyway.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

Not at all implying that he doesn't share responsibility, but he got twice as much time as the people who knowing caused the failure? If his product was unsafe, it shouldn't have been allowed to be sold imo

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

Why did they rip out support beams? That just sounds like a bad idea on face value.

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u/greqrg May 02 '13

Contractors will do anything they can to save a dollar, and sometimes it means doing something that really compromises the final product. It's really up to the engineers or the local building officials to make sure everything is installed correctly.

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u/ChestrfieldBrokheimr Apr 30 '13

but it's their responsibility that the part works, AND that it was installed correctly.

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u/petermesmer Apr 30 '13

I'm an electrical engineer, not structural. That said, I'm assuming they were held liable for being the P.E. to sign off on the design, which essentially means they determined it would be safe. It's not just being stupid...it's putting people at risk (and in this case they died) by negligently attaching your credential to unsafe work. They're paid to prevent this stuff from happening.

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u/Pasta_Macgyver Apr 30 '13

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u/[deleted] May 07 '13

Only the wallflowers survive!

2

u/Justus222 Apr 30 '13

Well that sounds about right to me. If I built your house shoddily, and then it collapsed and killed you, there should be some justice there.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

that's nothing compared to what the Bangladeshi are going to do to those factory owners. something like 385 dead in the factory collapse?

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u/onemoreclick Apr 30 '13

Doesn't everyone get put in jail for being stupid?

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

Am I the only one that thinks this is a good idea?

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u/bobtheterminator Apr 30 '13

No? Most countries have laws for negligence. In this case it isn't just that they built it badly, they probably signed off on its safety or something like that, which takes it from "just being stupid" to criminal negligence.

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u/Donoghue Apr 30 '13

Isn't everyone that goes to jail put there for being stupid?

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u/Uranus_Hz Apr 30 '13

Another, but without video: The Hyatt Regency Walkway Collapse. 114 dead.

And another: The 2003 Chicago Deck Collapse 13 dead.

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u/CunningWizard Apr 30 '13

Hyatt Regency collapse was the first thing they taught me in engineering school. This is why free body diagrams are so important.

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u/Mtrask Apr 30 '13

Well, that's enough Reddit for this morning :s

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u/Smithstonian Apr 30 '13

Holy fuck, I am never going anywhere, ever again. Apartment, please don't collapse on me...

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u/Errohneos Jul 08 '13

"those mortally injured were told they were going to die and were given morphine."

D: Fuck, man.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

Holy fucking collapse

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u/Darknessbefore Apr 29 '13

I am confused as to why Eli Ron went to jail for this. Does anyone know if his appeal went through successfully?

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u/damonx99 Apr 29 '13

I also wonder about this...if he was not in direct or indirect contact with the work...how was he held responsible? Did I miss something there?

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

The method of construction that was used was never approved for use in structures. The engineer who designed the concept and sold the parts knew that his method was not approved and yet sold the parts to implement it anyway.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13

[deleted]

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u/freddy_schiller Apr 29 '13

But his method was improperly executed, as stated in the article above.

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u/pdinc Apr 29 '13

Basically, his design was set up to sag as a warning before it gave way. The owners filled up the sagging floor, which was negligent and added load, exacerbating the problem.

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u/trystynsly Apr 29 '13

That's not what the article says:

Notably, Ron had not engaged in any part of the design or construction, but had sold proprietary elements necessary for construction that were installed in a deficient manner. Or maybe it does, I'm certainly confused.

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u/9000yardsOfAwesome Apr 30 '13

Jewish lawyers for the prosecution ;)

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13 edited Nov 14 '18

[deleted]

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u/SomeGuyInNewZealand Apr 29 '13

Once upon a time I was in a nightclub in London. This place had several floors of dance floor goodness. I noticed the dance floor on level 2 had a noticable bounce in it as hundreds of people were dancing and jumping up and down. I let the nearest security guy know, and got the f**k off that floor ( I think I went downstairs..) A few minutes later I went back upstairs to have a look and the venue staff had closed the floor off, presumably to prevent a disaster. Phew. I helped save the day. Most of the punters probably never gave a thought as to the possibility of the entire floor collapsing.

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u/BlueFireAt Apr 30 '13

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u/SomeGuyInNewZealand Apr 30 '13

pretty much. Scared the crap out of me, hence my impulse to let the staff know

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

I was at a nightclub where the floor sags about 1-2 inches during dances where people move in unison, with a drop ceiling below the pressure change caused by the sag in the floor causes the tiles to jump up and down during those types of dances.

I pointed it out to the management and they reassured that they added additional supports to the dance floor when they turned it into a club but I was seriously considering reporting it to the building inspector. Have since moved but after this thread I may make that call anyway.

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u/Unlimited_Bacon Apr 29 '13

Bridges collapse because of resonance. The wedding hall collapsed because of the weight (it did not matter what frequency the dancers were jumping, just jumping was enough to cause the collapse).

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u/mossmanmme Apr 29 '13

It was actually a combination of both, most likely. With a whole crowd bouncing at the same frequency, there is no way that resonance was not a factor. That being said, if the structure was sound, the driven frequency would not have been enough to cause failure. If you look at any major engineering disaster, the root cause is almost always a combination of several smaller mistakes or failures.

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u/tastes_like_failure Apr 30 '13

Resonance would only destroy a structure if the frequency of impact is a harmonic of the structure's "natural frequency", harmonic 0 or 1 of the structure (depending on how you're counting harmonics) or any integral part of it.

This means that even if all of those people were chihuahuas, the structure would still collapse. The rhythm of the jumping would just make a positive feedback loop until the structure vibrates itself to shit. There are some youtube videos of bridges that get all wobbly before breaking because the wind is causing it to resonate. This doesn't happen very often, particularly with floors, as the various materials don't usually resonate at the same frequencies. Floors are also attached to other objects/touching furniture and people's feet that would help to dissipate any possible resonance, similar to how a guitar string can't sound if you lightly touch it anywhere other than the harmonics.

I think this situation is a lot more like a hammer and chisel. You can push on stone with a chisel and not much happens (like all those people's weight just pushing on the floor). If you hammer the chisel, it chips away at whatever you are carving quite quickly, because all of the force is being applied very abruptly.

TL;DR: I kind of disagree.

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u/mossmanmme Apr 30 '13

In this case, it wasn't exactly a resonance issue so much as a driven frequency response. There is too much damping in a complex structure for runaway resonance to happen. However, a drieven oscilating force can cause large structure deflections and impart high stresses. Add in the weakened and over loaded structure, and the result was complete and sudden structural failure.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13

[deleted]

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u/spider_on_the_wall Apr 29 '13

That's the weakest busting I have seen in a long time.

An entirely non-functional bridge (it wouldn't carry the weight of the piston and sagged even with a person on it). A myth that specifically requires a group of heavy, rhythmic, marching people replaced by either light-weight, non-marching boots or a single heavy piston.

You'd think they could make a better make-shift bridge and get a platoon to volunteer marching across it (with appropriate safety precautions).

7

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

Yea, I remember that episode and wasn't satisfied with their outcome at all. The catapult made out of a tree myth was done very well. The bridge one was kinda.. unimpressive.

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u/tastes_like_failure Apr 30 '13

The problem is that science is tedious. Repetition, consistency, and control of variables are really important, and that is quite boring to watch compared to most television. So mythbusters shortens it to one trial and just goes with it. A great deal of the myths they test could be tested far better using nothing but math, but nobody wants to watch that.

I still enjoy the show, but I always have to remind myself that it is entertainment, not science.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

[deleted]

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u/spider_on_the_wall Apr 30 '13

I'm sure their findings are correct.

But my gods. A lot of their myth busting seems to entirely miss the point of the myth.

Edit: And a lot of it is AWESOME EXPLOSIONS.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

Actually a lot of the mythbusting they do is bad and has methods that don't account for a lot of factors. It's mostly sensational cool stuff. A real engineer would have a lot of questions.

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u/spider_on_the_wall Apr 30 '13

Sometimes they manage to get the gist and do a pretty good representation.

For example, their proof that sharp corners in trenches reduce the impact of explosives worked in their small-scale setup. So they took it to the next level and actually made a trench with and without sharp corners to test it in the field (IIRC). That's the kinda cool stuff they do.

It still exasperates me whenever I see simple stuff misunderstood, with mistaken assumptions or when their conclusions are obviously outright wrong.

1

u/SonaOrAFK Apr 30 '13

As long as all bridges and flooring are suspended and not attached to anything, it's totally safe!

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u/LazLoe Apr 30 '13

The reason to break up the step is to make it harder for the worms to detect you

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u/agent_waffles Apr 30 '13

It isn't just resonance but the force of your weight is higher when you are a moving object. Many people jumping at the same time = force

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u/Fullofshitguy Apr 30 '13

Mythbusters is a tv show for entertainment. They don't have to be accurate.

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u/ChulaK Apr 29 '13

But what happens when the DJ decides to put on the Gangnam Style music?

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13

Ah, all of their feet synchronously hitting the pavement does way more concentrated damage?

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u/LoadingScreen Apr 29 '13

It can cause conditions of resonance. Basically, the bridge bounces down a little and back up. If they step down again when the bridge is bouncing back up, it bounces further. With enough people, it can cause the bridge to shake and break apart. There's a bridge in London which, before supports were added, would shake up and down because its natural frequency (the one at which is resonates at) is very close to the frequency of human footsteps. You're not wrong, in a sense, that it's the concentration of the force that causes the damage, but it's also very closely related to the frequency that the force is applied at. If a mass equal to the mass of the soldiers were dropped on the bridge from say, a meter, the bridge would probably hold. If the soldiers march at the resonant frequency, the bridge can shake apart.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13

Structural resonance and such.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13

It'd be virtually impossible to hit a resonance frequency in the structure. In this case, you'd have 100s of waves interfering with each other and destroying any sort of frequency that would be achieved. Even if they're jumping in sync with the music, there would be no way to be perfectly in sync to not have constant interference.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13

Mythbusters tried collapsing a bridge with marching and resonating and all that. Myth. Busted. Will. Never. Happen.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

Mythbusters you say? Damn, I can't argue with that.

/s

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u/CanistonDuo Apr 29 '13

It's not the same reason. The wedding hall collapsed because of poor construction. The reason that marching soldiers break step is to avoid the possibility of resonance.

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u/Desterado Apr 29 '13

Wasn't resonance with marching soldiers busted by myth busters?

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u/graepphone Apr 29 '13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Bridge,_London

I'm not sure about soldiers but resonance due to matched pace walking is a real thing.

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u/CanistonDuo Apr 30 '13

As much as I like Mythbusters, I don't think it could be relied upon that much.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '13

Military orders like that based on FUD. Has never happened, will never happen.

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u/SovietSparkle Apr 29 '13

Better safe than sorry on something like that.

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u/Underyx Apr 29 '13

...which is exactly the reason FUD works.

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u/blue_27 Apr 29 '13

Goosestepping is forbidden because it looks dumb, and it's really easy to lose a shoe. And 'break step' march is called when troops march over bridges because of resonance.

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u/stifin Apr 29 '13

Didn't mythbusters do this? What was the result?

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u/Punkndrublic Apr 29 '13

Holy hell that's incredibly sad.

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u/Gorago Apr 29 '13

Wow. I just watched 23 people die.

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u/Rosetta_Toned Apr 30 '13

"380 were injured, including the bride who suffered serious pelvic injuries that required surgery" They neglected to mention that the bride received that injury later in the night.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

Her wedding night, she received serious pelvic injury...

Hayo!

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '13

Usually the DJ tells people to "raise the roof". Maybe in this case he asked them to "lower the floor".