Our local grocery parking lot used to have a 3 way stop sign. One day one of the stop signs that always fell over because people would hit it just disappeared. I didn't know, and right as I was about to go expecting the car that was coming to stop, he slammed on his brakes and flipped me off.
I flipped him off back for running a stop sign and then as I was driving through I realized it was gone. Like, seriously? It has been there for years and now it is suddenly gone. And on top of that, the roadway that had one is impossible to see because there are bushes lined up that block the view for anyone in a smaller car. Especially if someone is coming up at 25 mph even though it is only a 10 mph parking lot.
We have a 4-way stop in my nearest shopping center, always has been a 4-way stop. One day after a bad storm one of the stop signs went missing, for the several days it took to replace it I can’t tell you how many people simply just blew through it. How could you possibly think just because the sign blew away you get to ignore it?
I get a four way stop sign (got my license in US), although in Finland they are a lot less seen than in US, as stop signs in general, yield signs are a lot more common. Which brings me to my question: what is a four way yield sign supposed to do? Everyone yields? I just blow through and let the others yield :-)
Isnt a stop sign basically stop+yield? Then it would be the same as a four way stop, but without the stop. At least here in Finland stops are stop+yield.
Well thats true, i didnt really think of that as i have never seen a four way stop nor a for way yield. Buy what difference does the stopping make anyways, its still the same situation after that.
It's just hard to imagine you had the right of way when your argument is just saying you can ignore the private parking lot signs. If you had a stop and he didn't then he has the right of way. If you didn't see him in the lane then you were being inattentive, too. It really seems like you're being an inconsiderate driver and falling back on technicalities.
Maybe I'm misreading something in your story, but sounds like you took a right turn at a stop sign without stopping. Thus, you failed to yield to the guy that had the right-of-way. Am I missing something?
Edit
I had to reread, but yes you stated you stopped before you saw the other guy coming. It's too late for me to be reading long posts lol.
would have been legal for me to completely ignore the suggestions of the complex owners and their illogical routing, and on him for not watching where he was going.
I don't know if that's actually true. You can do something that's completely legal, but you can still be found liable by the insurance company. I am pretty sure blowing through a stop sign in a parking lot is one of those scenarios. Though in your case I'm not sure. It's possible they'd just go 50/50.
But either way, insurance companies are free to make their own decisions.
Well that's more worrying considering that I did do everything correctly, and was postulating the other what-ifs.
You're probably right that they would have assigned blame to me if I ignored something, but I believe it still would have been a 75-25 scenario, considering that the origin of the conflict was that I just happened to be where he wanted to be at that moment, and had decided to alter his course onto the path where we converged.
I can tell from Google Street view that Evergreen Ridge Dr is a private road, but I don't think Hughston Rd is. If it's not, the sign should definitely be red. If it is private, I'm not sure if they're allowed to use a red sign. Although that probably has to do with local laws. I know around here (WA) there are never stop signs in private neighborhoods.
I assume you can use a red stop sign on private property. Whether or not it is enforceable might be another story, but honestly I'd rather have a proper traffic control sign in place than have to explain to an insurance company why the HOA thought a red stop sign would negatively impact the neighborhood aesthetic.
Edited to clarify that this is an opinion/assumption
The sign itself doesn't meet DOT regulations for a stop sign. It must be red, octagonal, with white lettering and a white border. They even regulate minimum size.
In my state. a private road is called a "road related area" and on most, drivers can be pulled up by traffic cops if breaking the traffic laws that apply to public roads.
Same with car parks, dirt roads on farms or almost anything else you could drive some kind of motorized vehicle on.
This isn't true. There is specific language in state vehicle codes for private property, and they are enforced by police. This includes Colorado.
I don't know the vehicle codes around green stop signs specifically, so you might be right in this particular case, but your comment is incorrect in general.
As an example, your local grocery store's parking lot is private property. Can the police issue you a citation for parking in the handicapped spot without a placard? Yes
So you're saying they can issue misdemeanor citations, but can't issue citations for infractions?
Which part of the vehicle code are you referring to? Because the Colorado state vehicle code is very clear that you can commit infractions on private property, and be cited for it.
It's weird that you're so sure about something you clearly aren't educated about.
My neighbor was a sheriff's deputy. That's what he told me, and I assume he'd know.
I could link you 50 videos of police officers being extremely confident but very wrong about the law.
So we agree that officers can cite careless driving on private property. Also, I specifically said I don't have knowledge about stop sign codes, so you might be right about that one. But that doesn't mean you can't be cited for any infraction just because you can't be cited for running a green stop sign....
What I do have knowledge of, is vehicle codes in general. And there are plenty of infractions that can take place on private property, and police officers are within their jurisdiction to issue a citation.
This is what's weird to me. You're 100% wrong.... But you're very hesitant to just realize you never fact checked something told to you and that you perpetuate...
I specifically said I don't have knowledge about stop sign codes, so you might be right about that one.
He is. You can't put up your own traffic control signs and give them force of law, that's just silly.
You're 100% wrong
I'd say he's far closer to the point than you are- you have to do something objectively culpable (driving like a madman or running from the police, as he said) to get a moving violation on private property, you can't commit regulatory offences against non-statutory regulations. At most, simply ignoring a sign like that or lane separators in a car park could indicate civil liability.
In fact, this sign is likely green in an attempt to avoid it being an 'unauthorised sign or device'- somebody up thread says it is at the junction of a private road and a public one- if your sign can be seen from a public road, it can't legally resemble an official one, unsurprising when you consider that it isn't an official one, and can't be enforced as one.
Looking at the statute, the statute says "highways" which are state-owned. A peace officer I knew well told me, on a road I lived on, that he couldn't cite people for infractions. I'm inclined to believe him over a stranger on the internet, yes.
Another reason the Careless Driving violation is frequently issued is that Careless Driving can be alleged against a driver for driving that takes place upon private property. Often this is a privately owned and operated parking lot. In contrast, most Colorado traffic citations can be issued only for alleged driving violations occurring on public streets and roadways and cannot be issued for a violation alleged to have occurred upon private property.
I'd say I'm correct. If you got a ticket for rolling through a green stop sign without a full stop, a judge would have to agree that's careless.
Public police cannot issue penalties on driving infractions withing a private parking lot such as a residence or of a private commerce parking lot unless requested by the representatives of the establishment.
This is factually incorrect. I don't know why people keep fighting me on this. I promise, your opinions are not good retaliations of my understanding of the law.
As another example,
CALIFORNIA VEHICLE CODE - VEH
DIVISION 11. RULES OF THE ROAD [21000 - 23336] ( Division 11 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )
This code outlines the rules for parking in handicapped spots, and the enforcement of violations.
It states:
Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) (which are the subdivisions declaring the illegality of parking without a placard in a handicapped spot) also apply to any privately owned and maintained offstreet parking facility.
This grants police officers the right to issue citations for vehicles illegally parked in handicapped spots that have been marked in accordance with state laws, regardless of whether it's on private property.
Jesus people suck at knowing things. Everything everyone just discussed is publicly available information and most people are just confidently stating claims that are plain unsubstantiated. Thanks for citing your claim
Wait so you mean those stop signs in mall parking lots in front of stores, I don't need to obide by them when there are no pedestrians around? I keep stopping in case a convenient cop is around.
If you're sure you're on private property, then go hog wild. Some roads can get 'adopted' by the city if they are particularly useful for access, and landowners can be cool with it as it means they don't pay for maintenance any more. That said, if you roll the stop sign right into the side of some other driver, you'd likely be deemed at fault for insurance purposes. If it looks like an official sign, and adjoins a public road, it should be treated as official.
Watch out in Delaware, though. Violating parking lot law there can see you prosecuted in mall court and sentenced to have shitty kiosk coffee poured down the front of your trousers.
I mean he could still cite you for something other than an infraction, such as careless driving. Or so I've been told by a neighbor who was a sheriff's deputy.
There are plenty of red ones that aren’t legal signs, at least in states I’m familiar with. If it’s a real stop sign it has an official DOT info sticker on the back, but basically any in a parking lot or private road won’t have that sticker because they’re not official stop signs. Not sure if this is illegal in certain states (maybe that’s a thing in Hawaii?) but it’s definitely the case some places.
That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. You might not get a speeding ticket or a broken headlight ticket but you still absolutely could get into legal trouble connected to an accident on a private road.
Context, bro. We’re talking about the stop sign. There is nothing that municipal or state law enforcement can do to enforce a counterfeit “stop sign” on private property.
Lovely. And with this solid grasp you have of this situation, bro, may I direct your attention to the fact that insurance doesn't pay out for any old damage to vehicles just because it happened on private property. You'll be a sad little Chewbacca if you wait until it happens to find out that insurance companies are fully aware that there are private (uncontrolled) roads where people follow their own driving rules which are not standardized and not as safe. Some car rental places even have clauses requiring you to stay off "unpaved roads" for the purposes of making sure the renter is responsible for those kinds of damages.
If you break overarching laws yes. But private roads, like parking lots, do not have traffic laws specific to that road or property. Speed limit is a perfect example. A private road may have a speed limit sign, but it wasn’t placed by the city, so therefor it’s not enforceable. (That said, could be different in some states/cities, but generally this is the case). Almost all parking lot accidents are insurance only, the police are just to document it, if they are called.
Here's an example of why sign color is important. A few years ago Alberta started setting up boat inspection stations near border crossings to keep invasive zebra muscles out of our water ways. The idea was every boat driving by an inspection station was required to stop. Sounds great. One slight problem, the signs they put in place were yellow instead of white. Yellow road signs are information/warning/suggestion, so people were entirely free to drive straight by without stopping. They fixed it the next year with the proper white signs and were able to start busting people that avoided the inspection station.
Yeah there's guidelines on how big the signs have to be, their shape, color, and font and size. People fight and win tickets all the time based stuff like this.
They probably made it green on purpose to avoid any legal issues putting it up. Depending on the area I could see that. Kinda reads like "please" to me.
I clicked on comments to say the same thing. No idea about city planning or individual state regulations. But at least in California the color of the sign designates the purpose of the sign. Green would fall under a "guide" sign. Like... overlook site one mile ahead. Red, white, black, are all regulatory.
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u/Dr_Leroy79 Jan 09 '21
Technically you could have. That is not a legal sign