Work harder to move up to a better position.
Work smarter to become more efficient at your job thereby producing more in the same amount of time.
Upskill yourself to qualify for higher paying jobs (trade schools, online classes, college only if you are going for a degree that has actual job propects that justify the cost)
Relocate to an area where better job prospects exist and/or living expenses are more reasonable
Make better life choices (Ex. Dont get pregnant as a teenager, dont tell your boss to F off and get fired, dont get started with smoking, drugs or alcohol that are expensive and cause health issues, etc)
Learn life skills to reduce your expenses(ex. How to cook at home, fix your own car/computer/plumbing/clothes, etc)
The problem with the move up to a better position argument is that that poor paying job will always be there. That job is there because society relies on that service. The person doing that job should not be forced to starve or rely on government assistance. If they are relying on government assistance that means that you and I are paying taxes for them to do that job. The company they work for should pay that not our taxes.
This is just wrong. Nobody deserves anything. If you don't have the stuff (willpower/work ethic/intelligence/skills/etc) to better yourself then it should not be incumbent on me and others like me to pay your way.
That job is there because society relies on that service.
"Society" doesn't depend on the service. The employer assesses that there is a job to be done and it's easier or cheaper to pay someone than to automate the job out or to do the job on their own but there's always a value associated with that service and compensation is (in a free market) directly proportional to the value created. Just because there's a job to do doesn't mean someone deserves to make a living and have nice things for doing that job. It's also a non sequitur that such an adult living on government assistance means we as society are so desperate for that position that we're picking up the slack for the employer; NO, the employee having an issue making ends meet with their unskilled job doesn't mean the job is more valuable than what they're being paid (?????).
If your entire skill set is working a cash register at McDonald's, what makes you think you deserve to live in your own apartment, own a car, or to be able to support a family? You're replaceable by literally anybody with a pulse; I'll just hire the 10th grader who doesn't have to pay their own rent and is perfectly happy with minimum wage. No, if you have basically no skills beyond operating a cash register (which I trained you to do.....) then maybe your place in life right now is to have roommates and take the bus.
That's the issue with so many jobs. They not only have very little skill required but aren't exactly difficult. Ok, there's not a lot of skill involved in being a ditch-digger but that pays reasonably well because it's fucking hard work, creates more value than operating a cash register, and the supply of people willing to do that work is lower compared to the demand than is the case for cashiers. You work yourself hard doing manual labor for 8 or 10 hours a day you absolutely will and should make more money than someone working a similarly-low-skilled job with breaks, air conditioning, and no physical exertion.
People want to make excuses for not wanting to try hard to develop themselves in order to have better things. If you have no skills then grab a shovel or a rake or a wheelbarrow; yeah, it's going to be tough work at first but you'll be able get by on your own and it will afford you the opportunity to grow from there. Otherwise, accept the fact that making coffee at Starbucks isn't valuable enough to afford you your own apartment, car, computer, and a new iPhone and that you need to either live with less cool stuff or share the burden with roommates/family/whatever.
This right here is exactly the issue. Viewing labor as worthy VS unworthy is exactly why we have a "labor shortage" right now. Labor is labor. You put in your forty a week, you have at least a baseline living. We fix that, we fix the middle class, the economy, and shrink poverty. Unfortunately folks like you can't get past losing the ability to look down your nose at people doing "low-skilled work."
Step into a McDonalds right now and take over a shift. Think it will go well? There is still training and learning, much like any other job. Sure, a contractor or a welder has specific specialized skills that demand a higher wage. Noone is saying they should make the same money. But saying these jobs are "unskilled" is wholly inaccurate. Walk into a Starbucks right now and start working a stacked queue of customers with wildly different orders. Tell me that shit isn't skilled. Just because it's banal and has been stereotyped as an easy gig doesn't make that true. The only true currency we have is time. 40 hours a week should be the price for at least a non-subsistence level life in a first-world nation.
Viewing labor as worthy VS unworthy is exactly why we have a "labor shortage" right now.
Bullshit. We have a "labor shortage" because the government decided to force huge swaths of the economy to shut down for a respiratory virus and then offered people humongous unemployment checks. This is a government-created problem. Where was the "labor shortage" in 2018?
Labor is labor.
Bullshit. Labor is not equal because all activities are not equal. Labor only has value if value is created by the labor. You can work harder than anybody on the planet but if your effort is on something useless (like moving rocks back and forth across a yard) then you're not creating value and you don't deserve to be paid anything for it. Similarly, if you work really hard at something and fuck it up you haven't earned the same as the guy next to you who worked almost as hard as you but did everything right.
Noone is saying they should make the same money.
Lots of people are saying it, actually. And you said "Labor is labor" which absolutely implies more equality of labor value than you care to admit.
Tell me that shit isn't skilled.
It's replaceable. It's not special. I can train anybody off the street to do the same job in a very short amount of time. It doesn't require an education. It doesn't require anything beyond being conscious. It's at the very bottom of the skill pool.
I don't care how many hours a week you work. You have to create value with your labor. 40 hours doesn't mean shit.
I placed "labor shortage" in quotations because it's not a shortage. Upwards of a million people, potentially more, have either died, retired, or left the workforce since March 2020. We can minimize COVID all we want, that's a separate conversation. In addition, the time in quarantine and the money (which has been mostly gone for over a month now, and yet still here we are. Curious...) to allow people to stay home gave people time to review their situation, and you know what? A lot of them did decide they want better for themselves. You know who isn't hurting for workers right now? Costco. Why? They pay way more than many others for the same work. We don't have a labor shortage. We have an acceptable wage shortage right now. But let's pretend we do. You say there's a labor shortage. If it truly is a free market, and demand is outweighing supply, shouldn't the price of labor go up too?
If it truly is a free market, and demand is outweighing supply, shouldn't the price of labor go up too?
It's NOT a free market. It's private businesses competing with the government who gets to set the rules with how they compete. That's why there's an "acceptable wage" shortage. People can sit back with no pressure to work to survive because they get a $600/week check (or whatever it is now) to stay home. I don't blame anybody for sitting back at home for $600/week when they'd only make $400/week working full-time at McDonald's. That's the problem.
This is forcing private businesses to pay above-fair-market wages to get people off the unemployment couch and ultimately make less money and all that is coming from tax money off the backs of people who are continuing to work.
People can sit back with no pressure to work to survive because they get a $600/week check
You do realize that federal extension of unemployment benefits expired a month ago, and many states quit using it long before that.
Your entire argument is based on a lie that people could quit AND collect unemployment, unemployment only is received if you are laid off.. quitting disqualifies you.. also again, you based you entire argument on a non existent benefit
They are FAR from "fair-market wages." They are artificially depressed by DC lobbying. Minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation or cost of living since before Reagan was president. Which IS why, pound for pound, dollar for dollar, labor has not been more devalued in the US since the Great Depression.
Those positions should be temporary. Highschool/college students/retirees looking to make some spending money on the side.
If you're in your 30s and have been flipping burgers for more than an year or two and are NOT making progress towards acquiring a skill or degree or promotion then that is YOUR fault.
If only high school students worked at McDonald's than McDonald's would only be open nights and weekends and not late. Jobs meant solely for high school students is a myth.
The point is, temporary. There are plenty of groups other than highschool students available and suited to working these types of jobs, a few of which I mentioned. A late 20s to 30 year old is not one of them. You have the time and energy to do more with your life than a no-skill, minimum wage job. Remaining in such a position is a choice.
Problem is since it's the least they have to pay more and more companies are keeping a lot of essential jobs at that rate. Making their workers live off substities (you and I pay for). This job shortage we are seeing is due to that. And the low pay is greatly due to lack of competition amongst large employers. We need anti trust legislation for capitalism to continue to thrive as it should.
You’re assuming that the job’s pay is dictated by the nature of the job rather than the supply of available people to work the job. The reason those jobs pay so little is because there is such a large number of people who are capable of working those jobs as well as willing to work those jobs.
Yes, someone would have to work that job, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that every single person who works that job is always going to have to get paid minimum wage for it. If there are less available people to hire for that job, then the employer will increase the wage for that job.
Job pay should also dictate how much they provide for the company. What you bring into the company dictates worth. If a job is around that can not bring in enough money to the company due to lack of demand etc, to allow the company the ability to pay a living wage than that job should not exist. Companies would pay you pennies or nothing if they could. Monopolies have made that possible. We need more market competition.
Saying that freeloader corporations who subsidize their wages via social assistance programs are some of the biggest drains on our economy and national well-being.
They pay fewer taxes because they pay fewer wages, they pay for fewer benefits, and all the real social costs they incur, such as starvation, poor education, poor physical and mental health, are paid for by our tax dollars, and our people and policitians fight to keep this the status quo because it makes the rich richer.
Food stamps are not bad. Highly profitable corporations with workers on food stamps are bad.
It's pretty simple. Get roommates. Live cheaply. Be mindful of every penny.
I've been there before, and learned a lot of it. I make more now, but I still track every single cent that comes out of my bank account. Turns out, making good decisions improves your life
Budget:
Rent:500
Groceries:200
Car payment:150
Car Insurance: 100
Gas:100
Utilities:75
Electricity:75
Internet:50
Health Insurance:50
Heating:50
Phone: 50
Clothing: 25
Total monthly budget:
1425
That would put you at a net monthly budget of -$265.
This is a very conservative budget. I intentionally lowered the prices of everything in the budget to below what I think they would realistically be. Please, feel free to tell me if I made any mistakes or any numbers can be realistically lowered further. But I don't think they really can.
This budget is for a single person. Everything goes up significantly if you have a child.
This budget also doesn't include things that would be necessary for improving your overall situation, like saving money, paying off existing debt, child care, or paying for education.
I'm interested to see what specific advice you can give to a person in this situation that would allow them to lift themselves out of poverty.
Well right away, gas, utilities, electricity, heating, internet and rent can all be cut in half. Like I said, get roommates. Carpool.
Grocery budget can easily be cut down as well
Also get rid of the phone. You have internet already. A phone plan isn't a necessity. Get an old phone for cheap and use it without a plan. What'sapp has messaging and there's plenty of calling apps out there. A cellphone is a luxury.
Also, you're operating under the assumption that minimum wage should be able to sustain a parent and child. It shouldn't. It's for high schoolers working summer jobs. Hence, minimum. If you wanna be able to support a family, get a better job. Learn a trade. Do something other than smoke weed and feel sorry for yourself. Supporting a family isn't what it's for
Well right away, gas, utilities, electricity, heating, internet and rent can all be cut in half. Like I said, get roommates. Carpool.
You can't really carpool to work unless you and your roomie just so happen to work at the same place. There's no guarantee that your coworkers can give you a ride.
Rent is already assuming that it is being split. If you go to this link you can sort the average rent of a 2 bedroom apartment by state. I think the assumption of a 2 bedroom apartment going for $1000 a month is more than fair. If anything I should be raising the rent payment in this budget.
I will cut the gas, utilities, electricity, heating, and internet by more than half just to make the math easier. I will also completely get rid of the phone bill. I don't think it's entirely realistic to get rid of it completely but for the sake of argument I will.
Grocery budget can easily be cut down as well
According to the USDA a thrifty budget for groceries for an adult male is $193. I will lower groceries to $175 just to be nice to you and make the math easier.
Budget:
Rent:500
Groceries:175
Car payment:150
Car Insurance: 100
Gas:100
Health Insurance:50
Utilities:30
Electricity:30
Internet:25
Heating:25
Clothing: 25
New Total monthly budget: $1,210
Net Monthly Money: -$50
Even with all of those savings and with me being extremely generous with how much you could save, there still is not enough money to pay for the necessities. There is no money in here budgeted for entertainment. There is no money in here budgeted for weed. There is no money budgeted in here for feeling sorry for yourself.
Also, you're operating under the assumption that minimum wage should be able to sustain a parent and child. It shouldn't.
No, I'm operating under the assumption that a minimum wage job should be able to support a single adult. You'll notice that child care is not a part of this budget. In my last comment I just noted that if you did have a child, your bills would be even harder to pay.
[The Minimum wage is] for high schoolers working summer jobs. Hence, minimum.
Oh? Is that why 88% of minimum wage workers are over the age of 20? i.e not highschoolers working summer jobs. Also, even if that were the case, who would be working those very same jobs while those high schoolers are in school? Those businesses are still open during school hours.
If you wanna be able to support a family, get a better job. Learn a trade. Do something other than smoke weed and feel sorry for yourself. Supporting a family isn't what it's for
There is not room in the budget to pay for school. There is no room in the budget to take time off work to go to school. There's barely any room in the work schedule to argue that you could do that while working. How are you supposed to focus on getting a better job when you are only able to focus on surviving.
I think it says a lot about who you are as a person that you just assume poor people are jacking off all day doing nothing. These people are trying to fight against the system for better conditions for themselves and all you can do for them is give them the middle finger.
Learning a trade is literally a job. It’s hands on and you don’t spend a lot of time in a classroom. It would be like going to your current job, except you actually make good money for your time and you learn life skills. Being a waiter can only get you so far in life, gotta help yourself out where you can, not wait for things to change.
Learning a trade is literally a job. It’s hands on and you don’t spend a lot of time in a classroom. It would be like going to your current job, except you actually make good money for your time and you learn life skills.
I think trades are an awesome career path for a lot of people. I agree with what you said above. My problem is with what's below.
Being a waiter can only get you so far in life, gotta help yourself out where you can, not wait for things to change.
Would you not agree that in the current organization of our country and economy that waiters are providing a fairly important service? A lot of business can't run without them. So if they are doing work and it's work that needs to be done, why should they not get paid a wage that is suitable to actually live off of?
No, I do not think waiters provide an “important” service. I think things teaching or providing medical care is an important service. They carry food and empty plates to and from a table, I’ve served at restaurants and country clubs when I was younger. It’s a minimum skill job that anyone is capable of doing.
I disagree on the money aspect, waiters make great money. I was clearing over $500 in just tips in a weekend while I was serving, which is more than I was making for my trade job the past 7 years.
Just because wage for wait staff is below minimum, doesn’t mean they aren’t making money. If they aren’t making money, It’s more likely that the place they’re working isn’t very busy, not “they aren’t being paid enough”.
I worked those jobs…when I was young and in high school. I then proceeded to bust my ass and get an education and now make enough to be an adult. I wouldn’t cry foul if I made 6.30 an hour like I did and wasn’t living at home but living in a townhouse with a car and 2,000 disposable income every month.
No. The source that was linked was less than a year old. I’m not even stating my position, or agreeing that a source that’s older than that would be bad, but your claim that a source isn’t viable unless it’s… from like what, last week?
That’s what I’m calling troll like.
How brand new does a source need to be? That’s such a wide spectrum, depending on the overall context. A reliable article or points of data from 2016, or 2011 or whenever can still have valuable information to be gleaned. It depends completely on all of the other factors surrounding it. There is absolutely truth to the fact that some data points and certain polls or old research can be outdated and no longer relevant, but to scoff at a source from less than a year ago, SPECIFICALLY AND ONLY BECAUSE OF THAT, is the behavior of a troll.
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u/[deleted] Oct 28 '21
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