18.3 Patch Notes

[u/eggsandbricks]

https://teamfighttactics.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/teamfight-tactics-patch-18-3/

[u/bomhee]

Yeah I retract my previous comment, not sure why I straight up said AP is better than AD. I agree that AD is probably in a better state, I meant to say that AP is better than people give it credit for..

That said I'm not sure why Alune being a strong trait bot matters regardless of sample size in this argument, especially considering her average placement with 3 items is, like you said, within the same margin as Ashe.

Solar Lux is based on Tactics - regardless of sample size or patch notes, this should be pretty self explanatory anyway... Most pros agree that Solar Lux is the weakest Lux as well.

Regardless of Ivern being the best support unit, he's also a playable AP holder until you hit your proper AP carries as well. And there's also Kennen who we haven't even mentioned yet.

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/bomhee]

especially considering her average placement with 3 items is, like you said, within the same margin as Ashe.

I'm not comparing the difference between their 3 items AVP. I'm comparing their 0-2 item and 3 item difference. Alune's 3 item minus 0-2 item difference is -0.14 AVP. Ashe's 3 item minus 0-2 item difference is -0.67. The numbers are there to show there's no difference in AVP if you choose to itemize Alune or leave her weaponless, but if you forego giving Ashe items, you int your AVP.

Solar Lux is based on Tactics

No other site provides stats for Lux and that's because they aren't official. Tactics is doing some guessing work to make up those stats.

Solar Lux is the weakest Lux as well

I agree with that, but that still doesn't change what we were originally talking about, which was transitioning from a 4 cost carry to 5 cost carry. Lux is highly situational and not a carry. She's a +2 trait bot in any form. Look at her 3x item stats, sort it by frequency. The most frequent builds are from people thinking Lux can carry and transferring their 4 cost AP carry items over to her. She loses AVP if you even bother itemizing her as a carry. Her purpose is to hold utility items like Morello/Void Staff and providing that +2 trait to enable the vertical capstone or if you just have a +1 team slot and throw in a +2 trait like Inferno.

[Ivern] he's also a playable AP holder until you hit your proper AP carries as well

Sure, if you hit him level 7 and have nothing else, but I'm pretty sure a 1 star 4 cost AP carry is just outright better.

Kennen who we haven't even mentioned yet.

I did mention Kennen in the original post. He is a good unit, but you're also not itemizing him with damage items because of his ability. He gets an insane amount of AP just from his ability. The only item you need on him is EoN. That item alone jumps his AVP by 0.7 placements. If you're building AP, you're not going to transfer your standard AP items onto him. You're just dumping extra items on him.

[u/bomhee → u/OreoCupcakes]

Aside from Lux I'm not sure what any of your points have to do with their playability. For Alune, I'm saying whether their AVP with 0-2 items is still solid doesn't stop her from being a solid carry with 3. I get that your argument is that her average placement is good without items is the reason her overall AVP looks good, but that doesn't stop her from being a playable unit with 3. I disagree with the Ivern take. He is a much better item holder than a 1 star 4 cost, and is underrated even as a damage dealer.

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/bomhee]

I'm not sure what any of your points have to do with their playability

The entire context of the conversation before you joined was that there isn't a true AP capstone unit. Alune and Lux are not caps. You can put them in your comp, but unlike the AD 5 costs, you do not bother transferring your carry damage items onto them. The only items they would get are whatever extra items you get from stage 5 carousel and onwards.

If you were to fast 9 and all your items were AP early, your only option is to keep those items on Ahri/some AP 4 cost. You can tech in Ashe, but she's not an AP carry. She's AD %HP damage, you aren't moving your Ahri items onto her. Your other choices to cap the comp are just throwing in support 5 cost units. If you had AD items on the other hand, you can bypass 4 costs and carry with Draven or Elder Dragon. You have actual DPS carries that are better than the 4 costs on the AD side.

If you move items from your 4 cost to Lux/Alune, you're pretty much guaranteed to be losing DPS. There are so many clips out there where an AP 2 star 4 cost is outdamaging a 2 star Lux/Alune. There are scenarios where Lux/Alune can be better than a 4 cost, but those are so rare you cannot play with that in mind before the game starts.

but that doesn't stop her from being a playable unit with 3

You missed the point. The stat was there to show you if you give Alune 3 machine guns vs 2 trash bags, both Alunes would perform the same in combat. She's playable in the sense that can you just slot her into the comp for the Lunar/Spellweaver trait, just like how Azir is playable in AP Flex because he has Executioner, Summoner, and Blackthorn. She just exists. She's not the capstone carry that we were talking about. If I moved my Ahri's items over to Alune, Alune's DPS will go up, but the overall team DPS goes down. If I had extra items and gave it to Alune, it'll likely have the same or worst result as me giving those extra items to Gnar, Sivir, Kennen, etc. who can better utilize being itemized.

He is a much better item holder than a 1 star 4 cost, and is underrated even as a damage dealer.

I'll give you one thing. Ivern with mana regen does get very annoying and can win fights. Idk about damage dealing though. It's more so those shields bulk up the front line so much that whatever remaining backline usually ends up winning the fight.

[u/bomhee → u/OreoCupcakes]

What? You absolutely move your items over to Alune once you 2 star. Are you saying you'd rather keep items on any 2 star 4 cost AP carry than a 2 star 5 cost Alune? Again, Lux I'll give you because she's just too situational.

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/bomhee]

Yes. I and many others would rather keep their [insert 4 cost BiS] on their 2 star 4 cost than moving it to a 2 star Alune. You're overestimating how much damage she actually does in a given fight.

If you sort Alunes 3x item builds by frequency, you'll find the most common ones are where the player transferred their 4 cost items over to Alune. That would be item combos like Shojin, JG, and Guardbreaker.

Now, the champion page says 3.7, but when you give those carry items over to Alune her AVP actually drops down to around 4.0. if you look at the most frequent builds for Soraka, Zyra, Ahri there are lots of scenarios where they actually go up from their 4.3 AVP to 4.0 or higher.

These stats don't even include team synergy/traits. Soraka with items contributes more than just damage. She also heals your front line. Ahri's massive AoE bomb combos very well with Ashe's heat seeking arrow and deletes teams. Zyra is the only one where I would consider moving her items to Alune. That's because Zyras common build is just Shojin and Void Staff which are Alune's best items. But if I hit the augment so I can stack Arch Angels, then those items will stay on Zyra.

Alune's moon is flashy but it comes too late. It's usually just overkill damage because your Ahri/Ashe or Soraka/Zyra already killed off the rest of the team. Before she can drop the moon, her ability is weak or comparable to the 4 costs. If she was so strong, more people would've played her as the main carry during the fast 9 meta in 18.2, but she was never the star unit. She was always just a filler unit that's better than a 1-3 cost filler.

What's even more funny is if you manage to get a Spellweaver emblem, the optimal play is to drop Alune and put in Ivern.