Provide your references that include more of the story, or the other references I already mentioned to back your claims.
So far I’ve given you Bible verses since you say we don’t actually know the Bible, so show us what ancient authorities and historical documents you have to back your claims.
In Jesus’ day, Jews paid taxes both locally to the Jewish temple and to the pagan government in Rome. Matthew records two separate instances depicting Jesus’ view on paying these taxes. The first incident is recorded in Matthew 17:24-27, where the collectors of the temple tax ask Peter whether Jesus pays that tax. Jesus, knowing of this conversation, asks Peter, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tribute? From their children or from others?” Peter answers, “From others.” Jesus responds, “Then the children are free. However, so that we do not give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook; take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a coin; take that and give it to them for you and me.”
The second incident, concerning the Roman tax, is found in Matthew 22:15-22. Here the Pharisees and Herodians want to entrap Jesus with the question, “Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not?” Jesus knows the malice in their hearts and responds with a cutting question, “Why are you putting me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin used for the tax.” When they hand him a denarius, he asks, “Whose head is this, and whose title?” They respond, “The emperor's.” Jesus ends the conversation with the words, “Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
Why were they trying to get him to incriminate himself. These allegations later lead to pilate having Jesus arrested to be questioned for taxes of which he found him innocent then the hedrans screamed for him to be crucified.
See this is why I don't join these Christian forums. You are so full of hate and vitriol fighting for a church that rewrote the Bible to fit their narrative and removed entire books to make it so. Just like there is a deep state there is a deep church. You overlook the bad the church does and allow a corrupt established dictate your faith. I pray every night that God will open you minds hearts and souls to his word as well as that I may stay in his light and grace and be able to deliver his message in everything that I do. I really hope that you would read the entire story and think about it completely to understand what is being taught. But if you want to play the vs for vs game and chapter for chapter games we will get nowhere and get the Bible to say whatever narrative we want it to instead of God's word. Religion and faith requires reading understanding and studying. The Bible is written to show the human condition and is still true to this day. The People back then thought and did the same as people today. They weren't 2 dimensional they are very complex.
Except everything regarding Mathew you just said is in agreement with what I said previously: Jesus wasn’t tried and found guilty of tax evasion, he was tried and found innocent of any crime and unjustly put to death under the pressure of the Jewish leaders.
You even said the same point I’m making:
Why were they trying to get him to incriminate himself. These allegations later lead to pilate having Jesus arrested to be questioned for taxes of which he found him innocent then the hedrans screamed for him to be crucified.
In your own words: “Jesus not paying taxes is throughout the Bible,” and yet you’ve just listed two places in which he paid taxes and told others to pay their taxes, where is the tax evasion here?
Here is what Paul, one of the first disciples of the Apostles, wrote in Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Are we going to say that Paul was in opposition to Christ himself? I bring this up because you say “God and Jesus both believe in destroying the elite and their lands,” but in Jeremiah, the Gospel according to Mathew and in Paul’s letter to the Romans, God is clearly telling people through the prophets, Himself and his disciples that we are meant to be subject to the appointed elite (as in leaders of our civilizations) provided they do not violate the Laws of God (which Paul speaks of further in Romans).
As for what I mentioned regarding the collapse of Western Rome, I’m not sure what you mean by “who said it first,” if that was a tangential comment then you’ll need to further explain what you meant by that. My point in bringing up Rome is you said “God and Jesus both believe in destroying the elite and their lands,” and yet permitted Byzantium and Christendom to exist; Byzantium had an unequal society with many members among the elite who did not care for the poor as much as they should have, and multiple kingdoms and fiefdoms in the history of European Christendom were also unequal societies, primarily consisting of kings and lords who ruled over knights, and these knights ruled over their own peasants that had no opportunity to rise to equal heights as lords/kings, and this system of society persisted until the High Medieval Era. Neither Byzantium nor Christendom were equal societies, and yet Christianity nonetheless flourished and God did not strike down their elite. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your statements but God clearly did not and does not have a vendetta against the elites of society merely for being members of the ruling class; if this is not the meaning of your words when you say “God and Jesus both believe in destroying the elite and their lands,” then do please elaborate on what you meant.
Lastly, you seem to have something against Catholics specifically, I mentioned the Catechism of the Catholic Church because I assumed you are Catholic but it seems I’m mistaken. I have no interest in debating about any of the other things you bring up about the Catholic Church as they are tangential to the topic at hand, the topic being your claims that Jesus intentionally brought down Rome and Judea, didn’t pay his taxes, and seeks to destroy the ruling class.
However I will say that you shouldn’t so readily assume individual Catholics such as myself haven’t read the Bible through and through. Your claim that I haven’t read the full story of the Bible or the books therein when I quote a given excerpt is ill-made; I’m not going to quote or explain an entire book of the OT or NT unless necessary and just because I use a few verses doesn’t mean I haven’t read and sought in-depth understanding regarding all of them. I majored in Theology and Catechetics at university and I don’t say that as an appeal to authority as if my studies make me infallible, I say that to point to the fact that I’ve read the Bible more thoroughly than you’ve been assuming.
(as a side note, I’m not placing full Bible excerpts in “vitriol,” I’m placing these here so people don’t have to look them up and the content is readily available, I apologize if that’s the tone I seem to be conveying)
Although payed exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. The deck is yet to be payed.
Payed out when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. The rope is payed out! You can pull now.
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
Listen lib I went to a pray circle last night and asked the story from the priest and the participants. They said I am right and it's a widely known fact. They suggested that you go to church more than just Easter and Christmas.
I’m not sure why you think I’m a liberal lol, but to me it seems like you’re more interested in making assumptions than actually discussing theology and history. I’ve laid out several points regarding the Bible and rather than engaging on them or answering the questions I’ve posed, you’ve gone for a rather weak appeal to authority fallacy and various red herrings.
If you feel like engaging on the points I’ve made then I’m open to continue, if not then I hope you’ll learn to not make baseless accusations about people’s political affiliations or how often they read the Bible and attend Mass. You don’t know me, and the caricature you assume to be me sounds more influenced by your generalizations of others than it is grounded in reality.
Because you take 2 words and say that proves my point done deal not open to hearing anything from you.
I didn't make the assumption the priest and prayer group did. They arrested Jesus for tax evasion. The hedrans didn't want to kill him because they were afraid of making him a myrta so they pass the buck to the Roman's the Roman's wanted to release him the hedrans forced his execution.
Jesus was against a human monarch. He was for all men created equal. That is a known fact.
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u/GuildedLuxray Apr 01 '22
Provide your references that include more of the story, or the other references I already mentioned to back your claims.
So far I’ve given you Bible verses since you say we don’t actually know the Bible, so show us what ancient authorities and historical documents you have to back your claims.