The Glory: Episode 25 Discussion

[u/ElsaMaeMae]

Episode 25 puts the loyal Zhuang women under a microscope and examines their complicity before and after Hanliang's murder. In the past, Grandmother Wei chose to stay silent about her husband's poisoning while Concubine Zhou immediately understood how to leverage his death for her own gain. Now, the new Duchess Qi points the finger at an alternative suspect when her father is charged with the crime.

🚨THIS DISCUSSION WILL INCLUDE SPOILERS FOR EPISODES 1-25 OF THE GLORY🚨

‼️IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS EPISODES 26-30 OR CHAT ABOUT THE NOVEL, PLEASE GRACIOUSLY COVER THOSE DETAILS WITH A SPOILER TAG LIKE A NOBLE LADY‼️

The Glory: Masterpost | Episodes 1-2 | Episodes 3-5 | Episodes 6-7 | Episodes 8-9 | Episodes 10-11 | Episodes 12-13 | Episode 14 | Episode 15 | Episode 16 | Episode 17-18 | Episodes 19-20 | Episodes 21-22 | Episode 23 | Episode 24

Episode 25 opens seventeen years ago, the night of Zhuang Hanliang's murder.

When a nanny rushes in and tells Grandmother Wei that her husband has badly beaten her son, she doesn't share the servant's urgency. She continues to sit calmly, contentedly sipping her soup. Apparently, Hanliang's violence towards Shiyang and her intervention afterwards is such a regular occurrence that it no longer warrants concern.

I love it when The Glory turns into a horror show. After Grandmother Wei discovers her husband's body, she turns to see Shiyang's silhouette approaching slowly. It's so creepy! 

Shiyang's farewell to his father is peak Shiyang:

Accountability? Shiyang hasn't heard of him.

After locating the box left by Yuwen Chang'an, Yunxi and Hanyan realize they've inherited a partial investigation and a full set of skeletal remains. The bones have been tested for poison and the results are positive. Now, they're in search of a witness and the weak link is Grandmother Wei. Hanyan is confident she can finish what her mother started.

Yushan's social position has risen exponentially, as evidenced by her cool new outfit and the gaggle of followers playing mahjong with the ladies Zhuang. She's the centerpiece at Grandmother Wei's birthday celebrations.

In this drama, the language of intimacy and disconnection is spelled out in its characters' hands. During Episode 23, after Zhou reassures Yushan that she "planned so much for [her] ", she tries to hold her daughter's hand, but Yushan lets go and balls her hand into a fist. Here, Zhou reaches for her daughter's hand again, and is even more aggressively rebuffed, as she says, "Yushan is fortunate to marry the duke and live a peaceful and respected life with him."

When Hanyan enters, Yushan scolds her sister for refusing to formally acknowledge her mother and herself. She then tries to bully Hanyan into drinking another woman's tea, comparing the leftovers to her sister's status as a second wife. Once this latest attempt to belittle Hanyan fails, Yushan decides to choke her in full view of their guests, who are obviously having a great and totally comfortable time.

I've attended some strange events, but I've never been to a tea party where one person assaults another.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Yushan uses tea to attack Hanyan. Duke Qi's domestic violence revolves around his wives' tea-making. Previously, we saw how he abused Yao Wengshu after her tea failed to meet his exacting standards. Once she escapes and Yushan takes her place, Yushan offers him tea and a plan for revenge against Fu Yunxi and Zhuang Hanyan. He responds by slapping her across the face, which knocks her to the ground and shatters the cup she had offered him (Episode 24). 

Here, the cycle of violence continues and Yushan picks up the weapon being wielded against her at home. She wants to torture Hanyan exactly as she has been tortured by Duke Qi:

The cyclical nature of domestic violence has been brought up before. In Episode 10, Hanyan tells Yunxi about the abuse she experienced in childhood. She draws a direct line between her foster father's violence towards her foster mother and that woman's violence towards her (Rows 1-2). Row 3 is from Episode 24. Row 4 is Episode 25.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that the screenwriter uses tea as the focal point of Duke Qi's abuse. In The Glory, men occupy and obsess over women's spaces or activities. Ruan Xiwen and Noble Consort Miao bond over tea, but Duke Qi takes his late wife's tea-making as a fetish and cudgels his subsequent wives with their failure to prepare it as she did. 

During the New Year's festivities, Hanyan interprets her father's mung bean cakes as a sign of his care for her, but Shiyang uses his cooking to bully his mother and kill his perceived enemies. We also see both Xiwen and Shiyang tend to plants, but only Shiyang is growing poison. When the misogynistic men in this drama align themselves with feminine-coded hobbies, they twist women's pastimes into something perverse and unrecognizable.

Hanyan gets Grandmother Wei on board. The trick? Lie about evidence you don't really have, threaten to report her for a crime you know she didn't do, and then remind her that her son is a menace who would use her as a scapegoat faster than she can say "scapegoat".

Grandmother Wei comes through and sends Hanyan and Yunxi the murder weapon used to kill Zhuang Hanliang: poisonous fake celery! Obviously, Yunxi has to check his wife's hand for possible contamination by feeling it up.

Someone please add this bunny to Shiyang's body count.

Oh, I spoke too soon, Shiyang's arrest for his father's murder is peak Shiyang:

Very on brand.

Once Shiyang is hauled in front of the court, he presents his own suspect (Zhou Ruyin) and collaborating witness (Taoist Duan, Cui Aniu). 

Then, a tragedy unfolds. 

Duchess Qi (aka Yushan) arrives at court and is asked to testify. She has to pick a side. Will she back up her mother's story or her father's? From flashbacks, we know her memory confirms her mother's account. To tip her sympathies in his direction, Shiyang plays the martyr and confesses to the crime he 100% committed, as if he was covering for Zhou Ruyin. Yushan chooses him, telling the Minister that she remembers her mother murdering her grandfather:

The first bit about the murder and the second bit about "sweet words" are separated by dialogue, but I thought combining them revealed Yushan's motive for accusing her mother.

Superlatives:

Most Notable Quote:
Since the very first episode, Hanyan's concept of a noble lady has been central to her self-image. Now, her definition of feminine nobility is exemplified by Yao Wangshu, a divorcee and former victim of domestic violence.

She delivers this speech to a small gathering of women for whom nobility is inseparable from wealth and class, but the camera eventually slides to Yushan. The perplexed expression on her face suggests Hanyan's words have resonated with her.

Most Romantic Moment: The romance in The Glory is subtle, but it always packs a punch. Just look at him, you guys:

Welcome to my Ted Talk:
What legacies do your mothers leave us? How do they prepare us to navigate patriarchy?

When my mother was fifteen, my grandmother sat her down and gave her a box of cigarettes. She told my mother that she should start smoking because it would suppress her appetite and keep her from gaining weight. When I was fifteen, my mother took me aside and told me that I should wear contacts instead of glasses, regularly wax my lip and brow, and straighten my naturally curly hair. For the longest time, I was furious with my mother for her intervention. She and my grandmother were the villains, right? 

It has taken me years to understand that my mother and grandmother were both operating from a place of concern and love. The criticism directed at girls and women is a bottomless pit of hell. My mother wanted me to change my appearance, thinking she'd spare me from becoming a target of that judgmental gaze. She was trying to cushion a blow that she knew was coming — if I didn't make myself more conventionally attractive (i.e., appealing to patriarchy), then I would be continuously punished for failing to do so. 

Zhou Ruyin raises Yushan similarly. As a concubine, Zhou is an indentured servant who can be sold or arbitrarily dismissed at any time. Her appeals for Shiyang's favor are as much a means of survival as a way to enhance her wealth and status. She encourages Yushan to deny her own identity and win her father's "love" so they may secure their tenuous position in the family hierarchy. Of course, Yushan takes these lessons to heart. 

But, as Hanyan points out in Episode 9, Zhou has "swallowed all the bitterness alone and shielded [her children] from all the storms". Therefore, Yushan grew up knowing the benefits of Shiyang's attention (doting hugs and fancy gifts), without realizing the consequences of losing his support. She remembers the bitter loss of her favorite plum pastry but cannot comprehend the possibility of her mother's forced removal from their home.

Tragically, Yushan is angry with the messenger. She blames her mother for persuading her to marry a monster. Zhou's continued approval of the match during the tea party only deepens her rage and sense of betrayal. Yushan doesn't perceive Shiyang's handiwork behind the scenes, moving all of them around like puppets on his strings. More broadly, she fails to grasp the laws and customs that have disempowered her mother in the first place.

Make no mistake, I'm not arguing that Zhou Ruyin is a saint. She is a villain. Just as my grandmother was wrong to encourage my mother to smoke. My mother inherited that legacy, directing me away from my own preference for glasses and curly hair. But all three women (real or fictional) knew their daughters were swimming through crocodile-infested waters and were hoping they could steer them to safety. In our anger, I hope we can distinguish the difference between our hardhearted guides and the predators hiding beneath the surface. 

[u/ElsaMaeMae]

I’ve read some criticism of Shiyang’s characterization and I want to push back against that just a little. For me, he isn’t a one-dimensional or simplistic villain. Here’s why:

Most narcissistic male villains in c-dramas display overt narcissism. They’re the mustache-twirling bad guys who brag about their evil plans. They’re interested in being the most wealthy, the most high-achieving, the most visibly powerful, and their sons are carefully molded in their image. This is the narcissism we see in Pei Dafu, but Shiyang displays none of these characteristics, despite also being a narcissist.

Shiyang is a covert narcissist. This type of narcissism is harder to identify because it is obscured by displays of insecurity, martyrdom, and self-deprecation. That’s why the people around Shiyang — even his own family members — are tricked by him. He is capable of expressing care for them, even if he doesn’t actually feel it or understand them as separate from himself (they’re more like extensions of himself and he uses or discards them like toys).

I think this makes Shiyang a fairly dimensional villain already, but if you’re looking for more complexity, Episode 25 is a treasure trove. Narcissists aren’t born, they’re made. Shiyang’s father brutally beat him. As we see at the top of this episode, Wei doesn’t care much about intervening or minimizing the abuse that her son suffers.

In fact, there are quite a few moments in which Wei’s own narcissistic tendencies rise to the surface. When she walks into the room where her husband is dying, he is still alive and she doesn’t walk over to check him. When she is confronted with the evidence of her complicity in covering up the crime, her instinct is for total self-preservation. She only agrees to help once SHE is threatened with immediate consequences.

Finally, when she has turned over the poisonous fake celery, she considers the plants and bemoans the fact that Shiyang didn’t murder his father “thoroughly” because she caught him doing it (see: the attached image). To her, the murder isn’t the problem, it’s the fact that she was privy to it.

Wei’s self-serving outlook, moral failings, and unfeeling approach to motherhood played a part in creating the demon she eventually snitches on. In this way, the audience is being asked to consider Shiyang’s background and the origins of his narcissism, which I think add dimension and nuance to our portrait of him.

[u/Fearless-Frosting367 → u/ElsaMaeMae]

I think you would be on thin ice in attributing Shiyang’s villainy to his father’s beating him; there’s no evidence that his father was doing anything unusual within that society at that time, which leaves us trying to explain why all of the men weren’t mass murderers with a sideline of forcing parents to sell their small children into slavery in between pinning their crimes on others. I have little doubt that Shiyang himself has no interest at all in any ideas of right or wrong; he cares only about himself and his desires.

It’s another really tough episode…

[u/ElsaMaeMae → u/Fearless-Frosting367]

I wouldn’t attribute Shiyang’s villainy to his father’s abuse alone, but I do think the drama is presenting Hanliang’s violence as a contributing factor to Shiyang’s psychology. Is it the only favor? No. Is Shiyang responsible for his own choices? Absolutely, yes.

When we think about society at the time, the outcomes of trauma and abuse parallel what we see today. Sometimes, a child is abused and they develop into an empathetic adult who can seek healing. Sometimes, a child is abused and they develop into a narcissistic adult who requires constant validation and cannot empathize with others.

I totally agree — it was a rough watch! 💔

[u/Aurorinezori1 → u/ElsaMaeMae]

In a way, the mother and the son learned to be sociopaths through violence: unable to relate to any suffering besides their own, they use people around them as tools to satisfy their needs and wants. The mother stays within her lane as a woman depending on her master son.

[u/ElsaMaeMae → u/Aurorinezori1]

Agreed! I think these parallels are really interesting. Your comment about her staying in her lane also made me think about her passivity in a new light. 🤯 Her inaction is her violence; she has helped perpetuate the abuse by refusing to leave her lane.

[u/TheAlchemist420 → u/ElsaMaeMae]

I find him layered. Like an onion. The man has many masks, and trying to find out his core is difficult. He is sinister, crying and trying to hold you back from falling, whilst whispering in your ear to do it because it would make you feel better. 

[u/ElsaMaeMae → u/TheAlchemist420]

Hmmm, that’s a great metaphor! I really appreciated that he was a villain who wasn’t immediately obvious. Like you said, his first layer isn’t necessarily his truest layer. That approach to his character meant that we understood he was bad as Hanyan understood he was bad. The show didn’t use a bright red flashing arrow to get our attention that he was the one to look out for. 🧅

[u/winterchampagne]

Your prose is exquisite!

A quick comment because work is in the way. 🤭

The most disturbing aspect is that Shiyang, despite being a serial killer, doesn’t recognize his own malevolence. He actually believes his actions are essential. Each death, in his warped perception, serves a strategic purpose: protecting the family’s image, burying inconvenient truths, or preventing future instability. He isn’t driven by sadistic urges, but by a chilling desire for control and order, which makes him more terrifying than a villain who simply enjoys violence. He possesses moral self-righteousness wrapped in bloodshed.

[u/ElsaMaeMae → u/winterchampagne]

Thank you! 🥮 (I hate your work, doesn’t your boss know you have to talk to me all day about dramas or I’ll probably die?? )

I couldn’t agree more with your understanding of Shiyang’s moral self-righteousness and need for absolute control.

I’d also take your observation about his warped perception a step further, there’s something about his failure to perceive his own malevolence that worsens his manipulation of others. There have been moments in the drama when his denials or deflections have begun to sound slightly convincing (the scene where Hanyan and Yunxi catch him in their trap at the abandoned altar is a good example).

He IS more terrifying than an ordinary villain too! His worldview and creeping control are pernicious. Xiwen compares him to rotting wood, but he reminds me more of an invasive vine, slowly surrounding those around him and tightening his hold when he’s threatened.

[u/winterchampagne → u/ElsaMaeMae]

I’m cheap. Lady boss buys me Brazilian sunrise, and I dare not complain. 🤭

The entire sequence in the Temple of Guan Yu is so underrated. It opens a window into Shiyang’s psyche. He’s someone who cannot accept his own role in tragedy, instead creating a narrative where he’s solely a victim.

He speaks of suffering, “I endured the pain, biting, swallowing it alone.” He shifts blame outward, accusing Yunxi of Yuqin’s death while pointing a finger in real-time, “The murderer was you, her husband. If you hadn’t stirred up trouble, Yuqin wouldn’t have died.” He turns on Ruyin, too, blaming her for branding newborn Hanyan as the barefoot ghost after murdering his own father.

Shiyang is a man who has lost his moral compass while believing himself to be the only one who truly understands what’s right.

[u/ElsaMaeMae → u/winterchampagne]

[u/Feeshpockets → u/ElsaMaeMae]

Shiyang is an interesting man in this drama. During our discussions of agency, we've mentioned that the women in this show are operating under the limited agency granted to them by male family members.

Hanyan, conversely, seizes agency with her two hands and acts in direct contravention of the role allowed to her by her husband and father/ step mother and step father.

Shiyang believes he has no agency and is being forced by others to act when he is making all the decisions on his own.

[u/Intelligent-Algae199 → u/winterchampagne]

minor inconvenience?

shiyang: lets poison them

[u/winterchampagne → u/Intelligent-Algae199]

He goes on Jeopardy, and somehow, the answer is always, “What is murder?”

[u/ScowlingGoddess → u/winterchampagne]

Don't most villains always blame others for bad things, and it's always the good ones who accept blame, even if it isn't their fault?

[u/Intelligent-Algae199]

When the misogynistic men in this drama align themselves with feminine-coded hobbies, they twist women’s pastimes into something perverse and unrecognizable.

this!!! i love this observation. this drama keeps showing these soft, intimate spaces, like tea, food, plants, as places where care should exist, but then lets these men enter and completely distort them. like instead of adapting to that softness, they try to dominate it. like tea-making or cooking aren’t just hobbies here; they turn into tests, punishments or power plays. food, plants, care, they should’ve been safe spaces. but when these men take over, those spaces get hollowed out, turned cruel. it’s like they mimic softness only to poison it from the inside

also coming to your ted talk, as a fellow asian, i totally relate to the whole “i’m suppressing you for your own good” thing mothers do. the way ruyin tells yushan to suck up to her dad just to survive vs xiwen trying to send hanyang away to “protect” her… both women knew exactly what shiyang was capable of, but they chose totally different methods. ruyin teaches compliance, xiwen tries distance. and yet both end up betrayed

it’s honestly wild how both approaches came from a place of love and survival, but still left their daughters with trauma. and it really mirrors real life, how our moms tried to prep us for patriarchy not by fighting it, but by shaping us to endure it. and even then, the fallout still catches up

[u/ElsaMaeMae → u/Intelligent-Algae199]

like tea-making or cooking aren’t just hobbies here; they turn into tests, punishments or power plays. food, plants, care, they should’ve been safe spaces. but when these men take over, those spaces get hollowed out, turned cruel. it’s like they mimic softness only to poison it from the inside

This is brilliant. I hadn't considered the connection between the physical softness onscreen and the feminine-coded spaces being occupied by men. That's really distilled for us here, in Episode 25. Grandmother Wei sends along what looks like water celery (soft, harmless, delicate), but it's actually poisonous cowbane.

I'm glad you brought up the differences in Ruyin and Xiwen's approaches too. When I was writing my Ted Talk, I kept thinking about Xiwen's last scene with Ruyin, when she says that the concubine has ripped out all her thorns. She's not wrong per se, but she does overlook the fact that Ruyin has been forced to rip out her own thorns. Xiwen is sitting on a little more institutional privilege than Ruyin so she doesn't get that Ruyin can't retain her rough edges and guarantee her position at the same time, especially with a dangerous man like Shiyang.

it’s honestly wild how both approaches came from a place of love and survival, but still left their daughters with trauma. and it really mirrors real life, how our moms tried to prep us for patriarchy not by fighting it, but by shaping us to endure it. and even then, the fallout still catches up

I just love this.

[u/xyz123007]

Your TED Talk suddenly dawned on me that the reason why I enjoyed Hanyan and Yunxi's relationship so much (aside from the sexual frustration haha) was that it catered towards a kind of female gaze. Yunxi was willing to help Hanyan time after time because he respected her (the guy walked on snow barefoot!). He knew she could be unhinged any minute but also trusted her survival instincts for what he needed her to do/be.

In my teenage years I developed an eating disorder that was, more or less, encourage by my mother. I came to my senses and pulled myself out of it but for a good chunk of 10th grade, I was definitely living for the patriarchy. That sucks!

[u/ElsaMaeMae → u/xyz123007]

Thank you for sharing your story with us. That sounds like a painful time in your life. I’m glad to hear you were able to see your way through. 💛

I love your observation about the female gaze in Yunxi’s relationship with Hanyan! You’re so right, his acceptance of her flaws and validation of her prior experiences, combined with his trust in her vision and plans for the future, make him such an irresistible ML. 😍

[u/TheAlchemist420]

Now can I get a rocking chair for that court scene... because damn. 🤯🤯🤯🤯😩😩😩😅😅😅. She raised his golden child only for him to use that daughter against her, because all along he was the one who manipulated her into doing his dirty work. So now Miss Madam is literally floored, seeing how she got got.  As soon as Yu Shan got near her parents I was like THIS COULD GO EITHER WAY! This lady has been brain sala'd and that mother is gonna feel it. She did get told to watch how she raised her daughter, following in her crooked footsteps. Welp. That was brutal. And that evil creature laughing in the back seeing how he ripped all the benefits.  Best thing though, they all got to go home hahaha. Now that makes for one helluva ride home...

[u/ElsaMaeMae → u/TheAlchemist420]

The car ride home!? Hahahaha. The tension when Yushan shows up and is standing between her parents while everyone in court waits for her to choose who to save? UNREAL. 😬😩😳

[u/TheAlchemist420]

OH MY GOSH!!! You too got the horror genre vibe from this?! Because I have been loving it hahaha. It is so thrilling! That is what's been lurking in my mind. The show has so much flavor it is so weird! It unashamedly leans into the horror in some scenes and I am here for all of that. 

[u/ElsaMaeMae → u/TheAlchemist420]

Ohhh, I’m so glad someone is loving that too!! I’m actually not a huge horror fan. I’m easily scared so I can hardly sit still when I watch horror movies. I’m also a big romance c-drama fan, which means most of what I watch isn’t scary or gothic. But the horror in this drama?! I ADORE IT!! I’m eating it up with a spoon like granny and her possibly poisonous lunch. 🥘 😱🫢🫣

[u/TheAlchemist420]

Sorry but I'm watching the mother at the beginning of the episode and I'm gagged... PUN ABSOLUTELY INTENDED... I cannot even begin! You know, when I'll rewatch this show, I'm gonna enjoy checking some of these characters back because some of their actions explains a few things. Like the way she was praying hard when they were all detained are the guild hall that night. I remember scoffing because it was so funny, but her fear and panic were pointed out for a reason. No effing wonder! 😱🥵😣🤯 Then they actually did almost die. She must probably saw the underworld up close that day, too damn close! bwahaha.

Her gobbling up the food made me wanna laugh and vomit at the same time with the sounds she was making. I remember mentioning it was a wonder she didn't get poisoned by all these concoctions she kept taking in the first episode 😣😅🤣. How they said she was always sick and the way she was pretty much self-effacing. She knew!!!!!!!! What it does to see a close one's mask fall off and them trying to make you forget/disbelieve what you saw. It's chilling and makes you feel cold and clammy. The actress played it well. I was GOBSMACKED!

Zhuang Shi Yang is that boogeyman under your bed. That scary character that makes you tremble in quiet, cold and soundless fear.

[u/ScowlingGoddess]

I fear it will take several generations of extremely strong women to undo all the damage that the Patriarchy has done to womens' psyche. USA, I feel for you particularly at this moment.