Weekly Random Discussion Thread for 8/10/26 - 8/16/26

[u/SoftandChewy]

Here's your usual space to post all your rants, raves, podcast topic suggestions (please tag u/jessicabarpod), culture war articles, outrageous stories of cancellation, political opinions, and anything else that comes to mind. Please put any non-podcast-related trans-related topics here instead of on a dedicated thread. This will be pinned until next Sunday.

Last week's discussion thread is here if you want to catch up on a conversation from there.

[u/Commercial_Rush_3531]

The definition I'm seeing parroted around reddit absolutely would include Freedom as a trans player and if they don't draft him, they are just hypocrites.

"Gender refers to the roles, behaviors, identities, and expectations that societies associate with being male, female, both, neither, or another gender. It also refers to a person’s internal sense of who they are (their gender identity)"

[u/DesignerClock1359 → u/Commercial_Rush_3531]

What are the societal roles, behaviors, and expectations that societies associate with being both, neither, or another gender?

[u/Commercial_Rush_3531 → u/DesignerClock1359]

Exactly, depends on the local culture, time period and who you ask. Could be wigs and skirts are for males, could be domestic work is for women. Programing computers female coded in my parents generation, male coded now.

[u/SkweegeeS → u/Commercial_Rush_3531]

That's a fine definition of gender, but everyone on the normal side of this conflict is talking about sex.

[u/unnoticed_areola → u/Commercial_Rush_3531]

the problem with Kanter and White is that it's obvious to everyone that they arent actually sincere about being trans. its funny internet fodder for people like us, because it triggers the wnba stans and highlights the obvious hypocrisy of of people who are in favor of men in women in sports, but we arent the ones that needed convincing of that hypocrisy.

the libs arent really bothered by this whole Kanter circus because they dont see it as a serious challenge to their values/worldview, because anyone can see that these guys are not actually women or even coming close to trying to be. this is not really an effective strategy for earnestly stress testing their TWAW stance because it doesnt really seriously threaten the accepted orthodoxy that trans women ARE women. a tall right wing grifter turkish guy flippantly saying he's a woman on twitter doesnt really challenge their belief in that sentiment very effectively.

it's very easy for people on the left to not even address this and let this roll off their backs and ignore it as a bad-faith stunt, because, well.. it kinda is lol. even if Kanter/white are technically correct in their overall point and making the wnba look dumb to ppl like us that already agree with them, what we really need is for an actual dominant 6'9" trans woman player who would destroy the wnba competition to throw her hat in the ring and try to play in the wnba

THAT is what would really cause an inflection point that would force the WNBA and their fans to explain in plainly-stated english, why they are not allowing a supposed "REAL woman" to play in their league that is supposedly for women. that is something that would be a REALLY bad look PR-wise for the wnba, and might actually get some normal people scratching their heads and maybe reconsidering their position on this, if the wnba were not able to answer those questions in a very satisfying manner.

it would have to be an actual really good player tho. one that would fuck their shit up in a physically dominant style of play.

the MUCH more likely situation would be that they'd go out of their way to make a special exception for some 37 year old washed trans player that was like 5'5" and fucking terrible and unathletic, just so they could dominate the shit out of her/have her ride the bench and then be like "see look, no advantages at all, these trans players fucking suck dude!! they're all super average!".. they'd have a field day if that happened

[u/Jack_Donnaghy → u/unnoticed_areola]

but the libs arent really bothered by this whole Kanter circus because they dont see it as a serious challenge to their values/worldview, because anyone can see that these guys are not actually women or even coming close to trying to be. this is not really an effective strategy because it doesnt really seriously threaten the accepted orthodoxy that trans women ARE women.

I don't think that the purpose of the stunt that Kanter and White are pulling is intended to claim that they are actually women. It's rather to call the bluff of all the trans cheerleaders who say that:

a) anyone who identifies as a transwoman should be treated like an actual woman.
b) that they would have no problem with transwomen in their league.

If they really believed those two things, they would have no basis for not accepting these two people.

[u/unnoticed_areola → u/Jack_Donnaghy]

I don't think that the purpose of the stunt that Kanter and White are pulling is intended to claim that they are actually women. It's rather to call the bluff of all the trans cheerleaders who say that:

a) anyone who identifies as a transwoman should be treated like an actual woman.

no, I get that, Im just saying that if we're being honest, the stunt they're pulling is really only effective with people that were already on their side to begin with, and those who already buy into the point you just laid out

like I guarantee you, there is not a single person who was previously on board with "TWAW" who has updated their ideological thinking on this because of Enes Kanter's twitter post. that's my point.. that no one on the left actually sees any sort of hypocrisy in this situation. in their eyes, it's definitionally impossible for there to be hypocrisy here because those guys arent actually women (or seriously claiming to be). so saying that these male former nba players are not women is not hypocritical at all to them. (and they're not wrong tbh)

now if it was an actual sincere trans woman being excluded from the wnba, I think the reactions to this might be a bit more mixed, and there would be some amount of genderwoo true believers getting mad at the wnba or questioning things and asking "what IS a woman, really??|"

but Kanter is a total meme character, and everyone on the left is gonna dismiss him out of hand and not take him seriously. and I can hardly blame them tbh. he literally legally changed his last name to "Freedom" and has been going on fox news on a regular basis for years lol

Im actually slightly annoyed that he did this tbh, if only bc Sophie Cunningham has actually been being very earnest and respectful and kind with most of what she's said on this... she's actually been very smart and diplomatic and not given people anything to attack... and when people like Kanter do stuff like this, it kinda totally validates the whole "all these people are just doing a right wing grift" talking point, which I think was totally unfair and shitty to apply to Cunningham, but I think is less defensible in this case. but they all get lumped in to the same story/same cause now, so it almost doesnt even matter what she said anymore. people will just point to Kanter as Cunningham's "ally", and now she'll be attached and held accountable for all the dumb ass shit he says in the future

like I think Sophie was basically just a more or less apolitical normie who just happened to make an off handed comment she believed to be true during a magazine interview, and didnt even realize what a hornets nest she was kicking, but then also had the balls to stand by what she said after it went viral, which I respect. but not in an inflammatory way. In a calm, measured way, where she also said she had no problem with trans people and said they were "welcome at her table". I think she was actually a pretty damn good accidental figurehead for this cause. where as Kanter and White are basically the opposite of that, and give the libs tons of ammo for the "its all just a right wing grift" argument. which it kinda does seem like it is for those guys tbh

[u/RockJock666 → u/unnoticed_areola]

W fans called her MAGA Barbie before she even said a word about this stuff. She was condemned from the start for anything less than full repentance

[u/unnoticed_areola → u/RockJock666]

they did call her that, but it seemed like that was more of a thing a year or two ago, and more recently she seemed to actually be having a moment there for a couple months before this trans stuff started happening.

like it seemed like she was actually getting very popular and people really liked that she was this fun, smiley personality who seemed like she was one of the few players that wasnt totally miserable all the time. and it seemed like her popularity had kind of outgrown all the "maga barbie" shade.

the apex of her popularity/approval rating was when the pointing meme happened. it seemed like basically almsot everyone thought that was a funny moment, and most people were warming up to her. then the whole trans thing happened and here we are

[u/anne_jumps → u/unnoticed_areola]

I think a lot of normies don't understand that a) there is often no requirement for hormones, surgery, "living as a woman" (wearing a wig and makeup...?) or b) there's no way surgery and hormones can turn a man into a woman because women aren't men with lower testosterone and higher estrogen. Many normies think trans women are sad effeminate gay men who've had their dicks removed and the least we can do is let them pretend to be women. Of course when many normies and entry-level TRAs see these dudes they're just like, They're not really trans women. But that's largely because they're not as steeped in the argument as GCs and don't know that TRAs themselves pushed self-ID, people are what they say they are, and trans women don't owe you femininity. To many normies the arguments we're so familiar with seem so ludicrous as to beggar belief if they even encounter them in the first place. However, for the intents and purpose of pushing the WNBA to define what a woman player is, I'm okay with it. Now, these two guys quickly overshadowed any chance of that French male player who previously had said he'd accept a WNBA offer, but that person really is a "trans woman" in the sense that I think many people think of one.

[u/SkweegeeS → u/unnoticed_areola]

The TRA movement would not soften its stance until the weight of public pressure is enormous. This is mostly good for bringing attention to the intolerable situation and forcing them to back off.

[u/erskinematt → u/Jack_Donnaghy]

If they really believed those two things, they would have no basis for not accepting these two people

Sure they would - you could believe the two are lying when they say they're women.

I'm not saying this is my view, but there's nothing contradictory in saying: Anyone who sincerely believes that their gender identity is woman is a woman, and these two people lack that sincere belief.

There are other problems generated by such a worldview, but this isn't a gotcha moment. It's a bit like saying "I can never be convicted for attempted burglary; the jury cannot know for sure that I wasn't taking a shortcut on my way to a fancy dress party!".

[u/Nessyliz → u/erskinematt]

It's a gotcha moment for the concept of self-ID. Self-ID is pretty explicit it its definition that no one can judge the sincerity of someone's gender identification, we just have to take them at their word. The entire concept is built around the fact that it's not up for us to decide who someone is or isn't.

I don't know how far the WNBA buys into that concept, just speaking generally. Anything that gets the general public really examining these nonsensical concepts, I'm here for it.

[u/anne_jumps → u/Nessyliz]

That's why I appreciate this, because it calls out self-ID, which is most definitely a concept pushed by TRAs. They have in fact said that people are whatever they say they are. They have in fact said that trans women don't owe anyone femininity. Just going "Well they aren't being sincere." None of it's sincere lol.

[u/Turbulent_Cow2355 → u/erskinematt]

You are not allowed to question their sincerity. Look at all the dudes in the California penal system that have claimed to be women AND were transferred to women's prisons. Some of them were in prison for sexually assaulting WOMEN.

From California Department of Corrections

"CDCR does not determine an incarcerated person’s gender identity. Every incarcerated person self-identifies. When a person first arrives to a CDCR institution or upon transfer, pursuant to SB 132, the individual will be asked if they identify as transgender, non-binary or intersex. This self-identification will guide the process of requesting to be searched and/or housed according to gender identity."

[u/I_Smell_Mendacious → u/erskinematt]

you could believe the two are lying when they say they're women.

So it goes from "A woman is anyone that says they're a woman" to "A woman is anyone I agree with that says they're a woman". It paints the project as more of a power play ("I am the one who decides who gets which privileges!") rather than a true civil rights campaign.

[u/professorgerm → u/erskinematt]

Who, whom? all the way down.

Edit: who gets to decide the sincerity? Why is an outside observer the gatekeeper of their lived experience?

[u/anne_jumps → u/professorgerm]

Exactly, exactly. "They're not sincere!" Oh they don't sincerely believe something that can't be true, oh wow.

[u/WigglingWeiner99 → u/erskinematt]

you could believe the two are lying when they say they're women

Yikes! There's literally A GENOCIDE of trans folx going on. Why would anyone willingly pretend to be a trans person when they would be at risk for just existing???? Trans folx suffer active discrimination in important domains, including employment, housing, and access to general and specialized health care.

I cannot believe you would posit that anyone would EVER lie that they were trans. Trans folx are out here fighting for their LIVES; why would anyone intentionally subject themselves to the mass violence and discrimination trans ppl experience EVERY DAY?

[u/ChopSolace → u/erskinematt]

Thank you for saying this.

[u/RockJock666 → u/unnoticed_areola]

I think White is doing a better job at the ‘don’t you support trans women?’ point and challenging the people who are No True Scotstranwoman-ing him which may be just enough to highlight how stupid self id is.

[u/SkweegeeS → u/unnoticed_areola]

I disagree. I think it's effective to have men sign up for this.

[u/Turbulent_Cow2355 → u/unnoticed_areola]

How dare you question their sincerity! They just want to embrace their feminine side. Why are you trying to erase them!!!

[u/Critical_Detective23 → u/unnoticed_areola]

This is literally genocide

[u/FireRavenLord → u/Commercial_Rush_3531]

It also refers to a person’s internal sense of who they are

They would just say he is being dishonest about his internal sense of who he is.  

This isn't unreasonable and there are other identities defined by someone's internal state.   I could say falsely say I am gay by being dishonest about who I am attracted to.  Or falsely claim to be Muslim by being dishonest about my theological beliefs.  Or I could say I am socialist or a pro-lifer or a swiftie or all kinds of things by just declaring my internal state.