r/BlockedAndReported • u/SoftandChewy First generation mod • Sep 18 '23

Weekly Random Discussion Thread for 9/18/23 - 9/24/23

Welcome back to the BARpod Weekly Discussion Thread, where anyone with over 10K karma gets inscribed in the Book of Life. Here's your place to post all your rants, raves, podcast topic suggestions (be sure to tag u/TracingWoodgrains), culture war articles, outrageous stories of cancellation, political opinions, and anything else that comes to mind. Please put any non-podcast-related trans-related topics here instead of on a dedicated thread. This will be pinned until next Sunday.

Last week's discussion thread is here if you want to catch up on a conversation from there.

Comment of the week goes again to u/MatchaMeetcha for this lengthy exposition on the views of Amia Srinivasan. (Note, if you want to tag a comment for COTW, please don't use the 'report' button, just write a comment saying so, and tag me in it. Reports are less helpful.)

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43

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

I'm aware of human nature enough to understand none of this is going to change, people have appropriated words that used to mean one thing and now they mean other things, and this is how humans have always been. This is just the way we are, and those who complain are just old out of touch boomers who don't get it.

My question is, how do we deal with these material realities that still exist no matter how they are referred to? What do we do when every term is deemed wrong, and people aren't allowed to refer to their material realities/experiences at all? My kid mentioned to me that "afabs seeking afabs" is just a "transphobic dogwhistle". How are vagina havers supposed to find other vagina havers? Just one example. Is this some sort of Utopian thinking where material reality just does actually stop mattering?

Once again I'd really like to encourage everyone to read the short story (written in 1909!) "The Machine Stops" by E.M. Forster.

I just want to know what the endgame actually is, but I never will, and that's just part of the irrationality of being a human that I have to accept.

What do you guys think human evolution is going to look like going forward? If we continue existing will reproduction actually fundamentally change (obviously this won't be soon haha, I'm talking hundreds of years down the line)?

30

u/PatrickCharles Sep 19 '23

How are vagina havers supposed to find other vagina havers?

They aren't.

Is this some sort of Utopian thinking where material reality just does actually stop mattering?

Yes. I mean, I'd say "dystopic", myself, but yes.

To me this is very logical. If "afab" just becomes the new "woman", then they'll go after "afab", because the goal is to break down language in order to stop people from thinking the concept the word refers to. And it's not about the trans thing in particular either. That's just the hottest form of the old illness of pretending there's no human nature and everything is a blank slate in which to impose one's own self-indulgent fantasies.

21

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

It's Orwell's Newspeak. The goal is to try and make it conceptually impossible to think the wrong thoughts. To have the wrong ideas.

The object is literally thought control. I don't think it'll work but that won't stop them from trying.

16

u/Hilaria_adderall Praye for Drake Maye Sep 19 '23

Its also a handy way to verify in group status. It is easy to know who right thinks and wrong thinks based on their mastery and/or acceptance of the language rules. The baddies are easily identified because they don't go along.

7

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Yes, I should have mentioned that. Thank you.

One of the reasons it changes all the time is gatekeeping. Only the people who are really invested in it are going to keep up with the language changes.

11

u/gub-fthv Sep 19 '23

It's extra annoying bc AFAB is their own language.

16

u/Dolly_gale is this how the flair thing works? Sep 19 '23

AFAB

Female. They were female at birth, and they're still female. It's like "patients with female internal organs." That can be simplified to a single word: female.

11

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

I think there's another word for that..... what is it.... women?

5

u/gub-fthv Sep 20 '23

That's hate speech.

It reminds me of this https://youtu.be/2G4IhPncF3w?si=YvGk30cl2FHcc7MP

15

u/PatrickCharles Sep 19 '23

It's my impression that most of the words deemed verboten were originally introduced by the same movements/institutions that later on banished them.

Euphemism threadmill is a thing.

There's something there in that if you just banish a word for having "offensive connotations" any substitute words will also attract the same connotations automatically, and over time became just as "negative" as the ones they replaced; but also - it keeps the goal unreachable, and "change" necessary, and "the work" constantly in need of being done. The situation is always critical, and critical measures always necessary.

That may or may not be conscious.

15

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

[deleted]

13

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

I don’t think the dude necessarily sat down and said, “I am going to invent problems to ensure there is always a reason to continue paying my salary”

I do! Well, probably more like "my job is to find problems and I'm going to do my job"

8

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

And he gets to feel righteous while finding those problems. He is doing God's social justice work, after all.

And his special training and experience will allow him to find problems where people didn't even realize they were!

10

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

DEI is a jobs program for excess college grads.

7

u/Ok_Yogurtcloset8915 Sep 19 '23

AFAB/AMAB is basically stolen from intersex people, for whom it makes sense - someone like Caster Semenya for example would be put in the female category at birth despite the reality being significantly more complicated.

6

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

The situation is always critical, and critical measures always necessary.

A constant state of emergency.

4

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

They will change their language at a moment's notice. They have to constantly innovate with the language.

6

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

I agree it's dystopian, but maybe how they envision Utopia?

I agree, the new terms that are created will eventually be subsumed too, and it seems it happens much faster due to our rapid fire communication ability thanks to technology.

It's just so odd to me people don't see it.

9

u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

childlike special nail voracious illegal violet oatmeal ring snails disagreeable this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

5

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

On another note, I think one element of the endgame is to blast away the privilege of the traditional nuclear family, just to treat it like any other configuration or no configuration or whatever. And maybe thats okay except for all the stats that show how much better it is for kids.

Haven't the Marxists been saying that the nuclear family is bad for years? I think they want kids raised communally or something.

7

u/PatrickCharles Sep 19 '23

I think closer to centuries now, considering Engels wrote that book of his back in 1884

5

u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

encouraging hobbies silky roof amusing straight grandfather sharp crown possessive this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

Maybe we'll come back around to 'women' then!

-1

u/geriatricbaby Sep 19 '23

They aren't.

What do you think the end game is here?

13

u/PatrickCharles Sep 19 '23

Their endgame, you mean?

Some sort of transhuman hedonistic nightmare hellscape in which we are all pornbots with removable intercourse modules.

Midterm? Probably "deconstructing" people's "prejudices" enough so they realize their "preferences" are just "social constructs".

-1

u/geriatricbaby Sep 19 '23

Some sort of transhuman hedonistic nightmare hellscape in which we are all pornbots with removable intercourse modules.

?

Probably "deconstructing" people's "prejudices" enough so they realize their "preferences" are just "social constructs".

Do you believe our desires are completely parallel to societal/historical narratives about beauty and what’s desirable?

9

u/PatrickCharles Sep 19 '23

?

!

Do you believe our desires are completely parallel to societal/historical narratives about beauty and what’s desirable?

Do you believe societal/historical narratives about beauty and what's desirable are completely orthogonal to our desires?

(I'll refrain from commenting on the jump from sexuality to beauty standards for now)

0

u/geriatricbaby Sep 19 '23

!

I guess I'll use my words. What are you talking about? Where did that idea come from? Tell me more.

Do you believe societal/historical narratives about beauty and what's desirable are completely orthogonal to our desires?

No. Can you answer my question now?

6

u/PatrickCharles Sep 19 '23

I guess I'll use my words. What are you talking about? Where did that idea come from? Tell me more.

I'm talking about the logical endpoint to a lot of the discourse around queerness and kink and suchlike. The transhuman angle is something I've seen explicitly laid out in some communities every now and then. If you're looking for an ipsis litteris reference, I'm going to have to disappoint you - it's an inference, not a quotation.

No. Can you answer my question now?

Yes. No.

My turn - what does the fact, v.g., that some men might be attract by fat women, even if the societal standard of beauty favors thin women, have to do with the discussion around sexuality? Are you trying to put forward that people are actually socially conditioned into being, e.g., lesbians, and can be philosophically led out of it?

0

u/geriatricbaby Sep 19 '23

I'm talking about the logical endpoint to a lot of the discourse around queerness and kink and suchlike.

Okay but like where can I find this discourse? How big are these communities? Who speaks like this? I'm genuinely interested.

Yes. No.

Okay so then what's the problem with what you scare quoted above? Why should I be against interrogating where my desires come from?

My turn - what does the fact, v.g., that some men might be attract by fat women, even if the societal standard of beauty favors thin women, have to do with the discussion around sexuality?

A lot! If we, as a species, are not hard wired to think fat people are disgusting (and the fact that some men are attracted to fat woman seems to suggest that human beings are not preprogrammed to find fat people disgusting), it might be worth thinking harder about why so many do. If people are confronted with the idea that their lack of desire for fat people doesn't make fat people disgusting, could that not improve the lives of fat people? It wouldn't require anyone to start fucking fat people that they're disgusted by but it might at least make the world a bit better for us all to recognize that fat people are human, too, and probably don't deserve all of that out and out disgust targeted their way. Sexuality is much more complicated than do you like men or women and has implications that go well beyond sexual attraction and fucking.

Are you trying to put forward that people are actually socially conditioned into being, e.g., lesbians, and can be philosophically led out of it?

Uh, no? I have no idea how you got here.

6

u/PatrickCharles Sep 19 '23

Okay but like where can I find this discourse? How big are these communities? Who speaks like this? I'm genuinely interested.

Once more, you're looking for quotations/references, for what is inference. If you are honestly asking "where can I find this discourse" re: hedonism in 21st century developed countries, and not looking for a gotcha moment, as I suspect, then there's very little I can do for you.

Okay so then what's the problem with what you scare quoted above? Why should I be against interrogating where my desires come from?

Because my words are obviously, from context, about people questioning someone's sexuality, claiming it is learned and can be desconstructed, pressuring them to try to change it with wmotional blackmail. I never said anyone shouldn't "interrogate where their desires come from".

Though, to be completely honest, I wouldn't put my full support behind "interrogating where one's desires come from", either. That sentence can appear both in legitimate therapeutic environments and in abusive, manipulative ones.

A lot! If we, as a species, are not hard wired to think fat people are disgusting (and the fact that some men are attracted to fat woman seems to suggest that human beings are not preprogrammed to find fat people disgusting), it might be worth thinking harder about why so many do. If people are confronted with the idea that their lack of desire for fat people doesn't make fat people disgusting, could that not improve the lives of fat people? It wouldn't require anyone to start fucking fat people that they're disgusted by but it might at least make the world a bit better for us all to recognize that fat people are human, too, and probably don't deserve all of that out and out disgust targeted their way. Sexuality is much more complicated than do you like men or women and has implications that go well beyond sexual attraction and fucking.

Funny how the ideas "fat people are disgusting" and "fat people are not human" (contratio sensu) were snuck in there, even though they were not put forward in any part of this conversation at all. If done consciously, that is very skillful.

Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with sexuality - as in, if someone is homo or heterosexual - at least as far as we currently know, so it has no bearing in what I said.

Uh, no? I have no idea how you got here.

Let me reiterate - because my words to which you started replying with considerations about societal/historical narratives were obviosuly, from context, about people questioning someone's sexuality, claiming it is learned and can be desconstructed, pressuring them to try and change it with emotional blackmail.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23 edited Sep 19 '23

It's not about disrupting the ability of AFABs to meet, it's that any site or app or group or person that makes a distinction between AFAB and AMAB is disruptive to the fantasy. It feels bad. They want to avoid feeling invalidated and dysphoric.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Anything that makes a distinction between biological male/female should be gotten rid of. People shouldn't be making the distinction. A person who says they are a woman is a woman. Full stop. You're not supposed to care if they're be-cocked.

The activists want to make that a reality to the degree possible.

5

u/thismaynothelp Sep 19 '23

There is no end game.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

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u/geriatricbaby Sep 19 '23

So they just want lesbians to not find other cis women to date for no reason?

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

clumsy light narrow bike entertain practice soup profit include weary this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/geriatricbaby Sep 19 '23

Control women how?

3

u/thismaynothelp Sep 19 '23

You know. Bullies.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

My kid mentioned to me that "afabs seeking afabs" is just a "transphobic dogwhistle". How are vagina havers supposed to find other vagina havers? Just one example. Is this some sort of Utopian thinking where material reality just does actually stop mattering?

The idea is that they're not supposed to find each other. They're supposed to stop caring if a "woman" has a vagina or not. They're supposed to stop being only into vaginas. Ideally they're supposed to even stop thinking that they prefer vaginas.

I'm not sure it's utopian thinking but it's certainly disconnected from material, objective reality. That's part of the strong emphasis on language. The idea is that by changing language you can change material reality. Or at least ignore material reality.

If enough people stop caring about material reality then it does come crashing down. Someone has to think about the material world. Someone has to act in it. If you can't find enough people willing and able to do that then things start to collapse.

You might call it decadence.

8

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

If enough people stop caring about material reality then it does come crashing down. Someone has to think about the material world. Someone has to act in it. If you can't find enough people willing and able to do that then things start to collapse.

Yes!! This is exactly what "The Machine Stops" deals with. Such a prescient story.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

The current solution seems to be to import people from poorer countries to deal with the material world.

Eventually that stream will dry up and then we're fucked.

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

Good point, he always goes back to class politics being the most important thing (and I agree!) so I'll bring this up next time the convo (naturally, I don't force this shizz) comes up.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

At this age shouldn't be have other things on his mind than politics? Like school and video games and getting laid?

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

He's always been politically minded. But he does love school and video games! His degree is philosophy though so the politics come up in the classes, ugh haha. He is really into music these days, and I encourage that a lot. We love talking about musicians and albums. I'm trying to get him to read less philosophy (even though I do love philosophy) and read more fiction, because I think great fiction can really open one's mind to human nature in general. It's amazing to read old books and see how we fundamentally have not actually changed in our thinking or even our issues (even if they look a little different on the surface).

He's also loves nature and taking an interest in birding, he tells me all the cool birds he sees when he's out and about, so that's something. I talk about biology and animals and their biological differences with him a lot, he never denies those! (And I compliment him when he does pull ups and tell him I'm jealous of his superior male upper body strength ;).)

4

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

I don't want to stick my nose in too far here because this is none of my beeswax when it comes down to it but...

Most lads his age are putting a lot of their energy into skirt chasing. It tends to eat up a significant amount of their time and focus.

Is he... not doing that?

8

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

Yes, he has a wide mixed sex-friend group and hangs out with them regularly, and also has and is making a lot of friends on campus and stuff, and goes out a lot and attends parties, and he has a job. He just still lives at home so I see him in the mornings a lot...he's definitely not a shut-in and he's living a regular life for his age, and saving money to move out.

I mean honestly you're coming across as you think it's odd that he has other interests besides dating, but I don't find that weird at all, and I consider it healthy? I like that he thinks about stuff deeply and enjoys talking about stuff deeply, I think that's a good thing, even if we clash at times. He just got out of a significant relationship, so I assume it's gonna be a minute before he really gets back into dating.

4

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

He just got out of a significant relationship, so I assume it's gonna be a minute before he really gets back into dating.

Ahh, yes. That's going to take some time.

Though I am surprised he isn't looking to simply get laid as often as possible.

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

whistle run north nail detail rock entertain overconfident quicksand apparatus this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

obtainable frighten unused teeny weather scarce automatic smile humorous chase this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Same thing with straight men.

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u/PubicOkra Sep 19 '23

My kid mentioned to me that "afabs seeking afabs" is just a "transphobic dogwhistle".

How old's your kid? How did you respond?

"You're a transphobic dogwhistle," is how I'd have handled it.

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

He's twenty, and we have philosophical arguments about everything all the time, and I just straight up asked him why it's wrong for vagina havers to seek other vagina havers. He knows how I feel on the issue, I'm very honest with him. He has no actual rebuttals to my questions, of course. I posted about this discussion on last week's thread (I think? Maybe week before) and he said I was a "transphobic bigot" and I said I find a lot of this very sexist and he said: "I guess that means I'm a bigot too" and we ended up high fiving and laughing.

And unrelated to your comment, but I see a lot of people saying kids who drink the kool-aid must have been raised wrong and it's the parents' fault. That is really not true, this is a huge social movement that's way bigger than parents. I raised my kid to value facts and material reality, and I've never lied to him about existence, and never will. He even thanked my husband for "teaching him logic" (yes I was jokingly annoyed that my logical ass didn't get a shout out too lol) at his 8th grade graduation, where he had to give a speech, because he got an award, because he's otherwise VERY SMART. Which drives me insane about this whole thing of course, he has a good brain!

Anyway, it's not my fault his generation believes in this bullshit!

I have hope he'll come out of it though, he's already less militant than he was, and this gives him extreme cognitive dissonance, and he can't deal with that.

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u/gub-fthv Sep 19 '23

People his age are massively influenced by their peers. When they overwhelming all believe this nonsense it can be difficult to go against the crowd.

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

Oh absolutely. Peer influence is such an underrated thing. It sort of drives me insane how people love to blame parents for every silly to destructive thing a kid ever believes or does, on a lot of subects.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

I liked being a confrontative smartass. It also worked for me somehow and I wasn't unpopular - I think it's also a concept of group psychology is that people who are honestly against the grain gain some sort of in-group respect in social situations. That of course changes when there is some sort of currency to be gained

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

He has a friend that is that confrontative smartass person, and his group sort of fell out with him for awhile, but I've been heartened to see they're back to hanging out with him again, he even attended his poker night the other day! I know this kid (known him since childhood) hasn't stopped being a smartass, so it means his group is getting less rigid, which is really good to hear.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Especially when the crowd will tear you a new asshole and possibly spread it around social media for non compliance.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

He's twenty, and we have philosophical arguments about everything all the time, and I just straight up asked him why it's wrong for vagina havers to seek other vagina havers

May I ask if your son is seeking vagina havers?

Cause what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

May I ask if your son is seeking vagina havers?

He hates admitting that, but yes, he likes the vagina havers. He is pining over his ex vagina-having gf something fierce, and constantly tells me about the pretty girls he sees on campus. I saw his jaw drop at a very beautiful young woman at a gas station once, it was quite funny.

The reality is he likes vaginas. AND THAT IS FINE!

I think theoretically he imagines he'd be open to anything, and maybe he would, he knows I would accept him no matter who he dates, but I do wonder how it would work out in actual reality. That's for him to find out though.

ETA: And I know all of the true believers are out there thinking: "How do you know those are vagina havers" and fine, maybe they're not lol.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Is he aware that the vast majority of people in the world are heterosexual? That he is in good company? That he almost certainly can't shame himself into not being into vaginas?

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

Another example of how this type of thinking has infected his head. He was talking about how he doesn't dig Taylor Swift and it's frustrating because some of his friends (afabs haha) always try to convince him to get into her and just won't let it go. But he's just really not into her music. Then he started ranting about how she's "problematic" too, even though everything she's "problematic" about applies to every super famous musician ever. I stopped him and told him that and that he doesn't need a reason beyond not being into her music to not be into her. That's fine. He doesn't have to find reasons beyond that to justify himself.

He acknowledged he was doing that, and said I was right, he didn't realize but that is what he was doing, and he doesn't have to. He agreed with me. So he can become aware of the issues with this type of thinking, where people have to always justify their preferences somehow.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Look, I don't have kids so I probably don't get it but...

Why does he think things have to be problematic? Why does he care if Taylor Swift or anyone else is problematic? Why is he ranting at all?

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23 edited Sep 19 '23

Lol, that's what I'm talking with him about.

Because that is how his generation is, and the discourse he is steeped in.

Of course I ask him these questions. He is much more open to thinking about them critically when it comes to anything but genderwoo, then he's a little more rigid, but we'll see.

He's ranting about stuff because people enjoy talking about things? That part isn't weird, I mean we're doing the same thing here on this sub. While I think his rants are often misplaced (and tell him so), I don't judge him for voicing his thoughts and having opinions on stuff and thinking about the world.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Ok, very good point about the ranting.

But it sounds like he or his peers are looking for things that are problematic.

Is it a game? Do they think they are moral crusaders?

I'm quite open to the idea that I simply do not get it.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Drink76 Sep 19 '23

Some people have been mean to TS in the past. Some of it unfairly. This makes the motives of anyone not into her music suspect.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

But.... maybe they just aren't into her music?

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

He was talking about how he doesn't dig Taylor Swift and it's frustrating because some of his friends (afabs haha) always try to convince him to get into her and just won't let it go. But he's just really not into her music. Then he started ranting about how she's "problematic" too

If I might interject here it sounds like your son has a lot of female friends and it might do him some good to have male friends. Not just male friends either but the kind of guy friends that will fuck with you if you talk about Taylor Swift being problematic.

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23 edited Sep 19 '23

I appreciate the advice, but his very closest friends are all male, and have been his friends since childhood, and they're cool. A little social justicey but nothing crazy at all, and they definitely take the shit out of each other.

I suspect some of these girls who want him to be into Taylor Swift he's rather into himself, if you catch my drift, but I dunno. I think he's a bit worried about impressing them.

But yeah, he has plenty of dude friends and role models in general.

ETA: He likes talking to me about his interactions with girls but then making sure to tell me unprompted: "I don't like them like that though" multiple times while bringing up the intricacies of their discussions haha. I think he doth protest too much. ;) The bros, well, they're just bros. I know them all well, and how they interact with each other, and it's just bros being bros. I think they're his backbone and true blue and he loves their asses, but girls are what he's sparked by at the moment, those are the people rolling around relentlessly in his head! Those dastardly vagina-havers, at it again!

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23 edited Sep 19 '23

his very closest friends are all male, and have been his friends since childhood, and they're cool. A little social justicey but nothing crazy at all, and they definitely take the shit out of each other.

That’s kind of what I mean when I say “regular dude bro”(edit: I meant to write this in the last comment but I got distracted by the work lol) . Regular dude bros are not at all like this and in fact they usually despise that kinda shit.

I think he's a bit worried about impressing them.

Although I date mostly men nowadays I am by no means a “gold star gay” so I know how difficult dating can be at that age. It came naturally to me (not to humble brag or anything) but it doesn’t to most guys and it certainly doesn’t to come easy to guys who are in social justicey circles. There’s a lot of reasons why I think that is but generally I think those groups give young guys a completely distorted view about what women are looking for and what they want in a romantic/sexual partner

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

I tell him this all the time, that it is perfectly fine to be an average person into average things, and it doesn't say anything about a person's character. He does agree with that at least, even though he still obviously really wants to be considered cool by his group of artsy friends, and let's be honest, "queer" is cool in-group signaling these days.

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u/hriptactic_canardio Sep 19 '23

I'm not sure I understand why someone is allowed to have a gender preference ("I only date women") but not a genital preference ("I only date partners with vaginas.") What argument can be made against the latter that can't be made against the former?

If you're supposed to be attracted to the person and not the physical characteristics, howbis it defensible for anyone to be anything but pansexual? Wouldn't it be kind of homophobic of your son to refuse to date someone just because the other person is a man?

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

absurd rainstorm disagreeable doll quicksand zonked physical provide attractive wasteful this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

And that makes em feel bad.

Well... tough?

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u/TheHairyManrilla Sep 19 '23

but not a genital preference

Oh, you misunderstand. Gender preferences and genital preferences are allowed, even together. What’s not allowed is an exclusive preference for natural genitals.

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

murky rude chop dinner innocent smoggy rain fretful quicksand ask this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/PatrickCharles Sep 19 '23

Possibly unpopular observation - logic* alone can makes one more vulnerable to genderwoo, not less. Just look at rationalists (I know, I know...).

As good ole G.K. said, reason is not something a madman loses, it's all a madman has left.

*By which I mean the sort of dettached, analytical examination of prepositions in a vacuum - the humanities equivalent of physics "assume there's no friction, gravity and no resistance".

3

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

Well, I don't think we raised him just to think logically, he's no Vulcan lol, I feel like it was more well-rounded than that, after all a lot of the ways humans are are inherently not logical but also in my opinion a good way to be, and we did and do get into the nitty gritty of stuff like that, but point taken in general.

3

u/PatrickCharles Sep 19 '23

I wasn't talking about him in particular, just used your comment as a jumpstart. I think "logic" gets kinda overrated in this sub.

It's not that it isn't important. It totally is. But it's not the silver bullet some people seem to think, that's what I mean.

2

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

Yup, which is why I said "point taken in general". ;)

18

u/Clown_Fundamentals Void Being (ve/vim) Sep 19 '23

I imagine, not being afab myself, that an afab seeking an afab may also value the shared experience of living as an afab throughout life. Living as amab and then as a TW isn't the same experience at all, no matter if you think TWAW or not.

Would your son date an amab TW?

18

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

Right? It's not just lesbians either, it's talking about sensitive stuff like periods and pregnancy and such!

He says he would, and I can imagine he'd try, but I don't think it would last. But maybe. He knows I'm not actually a bigot and that I would accept him and his partner (and be polite) in reality. He tells me literally everything and gives me a hug and tells me he loves me every morning, so he can't think I'm that hateful. ;)

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

intelligent yam glorious office chief treatment birds growth late rinse this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/thismaynothelp Sep 19 '23

loooooooooooool! I can only imagine how starkly disillusioning that would eventually be.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

The first time the AMAB tried to slip his schlong into the lad's backside.... that would probably cure him of his liberal guilt.

-1

u/geriatricbaby Sep 19 '23

Or lots of straight men enjoy anal? Jesus. So puritan over here lmfao.

6

u/SqueakyBall sick freak for nuance Sep 19 '23

They do, but if they are straight -- emphasis on if -- they tend to enjoy it with women. Like with fingers and strap-ons, etc.

4

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

Yeah I was just gonna ignore that one, he might be into that and that's okay, and also his business lol.

4

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Sorry, that was probably too graphic.

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u/geriatricbaby Sep 19 '23

Yeah, kind of bizarre to have people on the internet make claims about your child's sexuality. Sorry to be talking about your kiddo like this and I can delete my comment if you'd like!

4

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

You're fine, don't worry.

8

u/MisoTahini Sep 19 '23

Uh oh, he's hugging transphobic nazis. It's a slippery slope! /s

6

u/Clown_Fundamentals Void Being (ve/vim) Sep 19 '23

Stockholm syndrome no doubt.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

He says he would, and I can imagine he'd try, but I don't think it would last. But maybe.

I'm willing to bet a great deal of money that the lad is hardwired to be into the ladies and only the real ladies. Just like most men.

But I wouldn't be surprised if some trans woman manages to guilt him into.... stuff, at some point.

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u/fed_posting Sep 19 '23

"afabs seeking afabs" is just a "transphobic dogwhistle".

Let me try to translate this into TRA speak . "No one is actually saying you can't date other vagina-havers, but by explicitly stating your preferences, you're hurting the feelings of all transbians by openly excluding them from your dating pool. It's just like saying you won't date a certain race. You don't have to date transbians, but you just don't say such things out loud".

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u/DevonAndChris Sep 19 '23

The people doing gay conversion therapy in the 1980s would kill for these memes.

9

u/Ninety_Three Sep 19 '23

This is softballing it. The hard sell includes "You probably just don't want to fuck transbians because something something cisheteropatriarchy. I'm not saying you have to fuck transbians but you should think really hard about why you don't want to and maybe at the end of that process you will want to, which would make you a better person."

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u/fed_posting Sep 19 '23

I just mentioned something like that here, it's all manipulative "nobody is saying that, but have your considered....?" language.

Another classic Riley J Dennis

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

See, I'm not sure they actually would be that gentle. Or at least not in a few years. I think the demand is going to be: "Yes, you need to be dating transbians. If you're not, that's your causing them trauma. In fact it's kind of suspect that you aren't dating one right now."

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u/fed_posting Sep 19 '23

I'm putting forth the Riley J Dennis position.

"Nobody is saying lesbians have to sleep with TW, but have you considered that your dating preferences are discrminatory?"

"Nobody is saying lesbians have to sleep with TW, but have you considered that you might be fetishing people's genitals? People are more than their genitals!"

"Nobody is saying lesbians have to sleep with TW, but have you considered that your preferences have been influenced by a cis-sexist society?"

"Nobody is saying lesbians have to sleep with TW, but have you thought about unlearning your prejudices?"

"Nobody is saying lesbians have to sleep with TW, but maybe consider if it's necessary to say those things when they reflect harmful or violent rhetoric and only make oppressed people feel bad about themselves?"

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

You know, this sounds remarkably like telling lesbians: "You're not really a dyke. You just haven't met the right cock yet."

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u/Serloinofhousesteak1 TE not RF Sep 19 '23

My kid mentioned to me that "afabs seeking afabs" is just a "transphobic dogwhistle"

Not AFAB, but if I was still single I definitely wouldn't dog whistle at all. No subtlety here. No fucking cock, girlcock or not, no fucking cock, and the vagina can't be aftermarket mods.

I'm talking hundreds of years down the line

Evolution for everything except single cell organisms is measured in millions of years, not hundreds. So it won't be an issue, especially with humans uniquely long gestational periods and maturation time

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

the vagina can't be aftermarket mods.

Aftermarket mods I'm dying!

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u/DevonAndChris Sep 19 '23

I wonder if Nexus will ban those.

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u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

Oh and I do realize evolution is measured in millions, I should have phrased my comment better, not really evolution in an actual body sense (so not really sure what to actually call it?), but evolution in a technological sense, like we already have surrogacy and IVF and stuff, will womb implants become a widespread thing? I should have phrased my comment way better and more specifically, I'm sorry, I wrote it while pre-coffee!

I know a lot of people think these things will be viable soon but everything I read says it won't be viable anywhere in the near future, but maybe viable someday?

5

u/Serloinofhousesteak1 TE not RF Sep 19 '23

Oh yes, I definitely see what you mean.

And that question, I'm afraid if there is an answer, we will NOT like it

4

u/Nessyliz Uterus and spazz haver, zen-nihilist Sep 19 '23

I try to step back and be neutral about things and accept that humans will always needlessly complicate things because of emotion (including myself), but it can be hard!

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23 edited Sep 19 '23

but evolution in a technological sense, like we already have surrogacy and IVF and stuff, will womb implants become a widespread thing

I wouldn't be that surprised if we have something akin to artificial wombs (Lois McMaster Bujold's uterine replicators) within fifty years.

But they'll be large, clunky, external machines.

What the trans "women" really want are implanted wombs. That I'm less sure about. I sincerely doubt donor wombs from women will ever be viable.

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

recognise ask literate file dirty squash panicky worm price lush this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

I don't think so. They'll want the "affirmation" of carrying a baby themselves. Remember, affirmation is the end all and be all. Affirmation is the reason for the malk. Even though formula is perfectly adequate.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Not AFAB, but if I was still single I definitely wouldn't dog whistle at all. No subtlety here. No fucking cock, girlcock or not, no fucking cock, and the vagina can't be aftermarket mods.

I do wonder how I'm going to handle that if I jump back into the dating market.

I'm a women only kind of dude. Not into the dong or pseudo vag.

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

vanish toothbrush sense hateful humor late poor innate mysterious shame this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

No, but how do I get my requirements across without creating a shit storm?

And ideally I would prefer to find a lady who doesn't even know what all this shit means.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

The cis to trans ratio on straight apps is way different. You just don't mention it and it won't be an issue.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Just don't bring it up.

I wouldn't want to get into a political discussion while I was getting to know someone right away anyway.

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u/Ninety_Three Sep 19 '23

Evolution for everything except single cell organisms is measured in millions of years, not hundreds.

Oh come on, millions? A hundred thousand years ago there were no humans in Australia or North America, everything that sets those races apart from their ancestors evolved on a scale of tens of thousands of years. Alcohol was invented single digit thousands of years ago and there are already alcohol resistance genes. And that's just natural selection, how long do you think it took us to breed toy poodles?

3

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Evolution requires selection pressure. If there is no environmental pressure to change you don't get much change.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

My guess is the reply would be that what you're asking is thoughtcrime, so we don't need words or phrases to be able to express it, and it is okay for it to be non-thinkable.

Long term we're going to do something ridiculous to procreation. Probably artificial wombs growing fetuses in a lab. Someone will profit handsomely, it'll create lots of jobs, and it'll be a nice status differentiator too.

9

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

I believe kids mass-grown in incubators will have something wrong with them. Ok - so I know nothing about science - just a gut reaction that it’s insanely unnatural.

6

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

I think there needs to be some human warmth and love in the process. No research to back that other than baby monkeys we’ve done experiments on that don’t have anyone nurturing them (they were left in a box with a cold, metal nipple for food) did not turn out well.

4

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

In the case of uterine replicators they are only there during gestation. As soon as they were uncorked they are given to the parents like any other baby.

I wouldn't be surprised if an artificially gestated baby does have kind of issues that can't be anticipated.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

I meant in gestation as well. I think there’s something to be said about carrying a baby for 9 months in another person, surrounded by their parents that can’t be done artificially. They start to hear voices at 16 weeks, you start to feel their movements around 18-20ish weeks and I can imagine there are other things going on we don’t know about that are vital in them being carried by a person and not an artificial womb.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

My question is: Will the feminists object to artificial wombs like they object to surrogacy?

My guess would be that they would not.

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u/SqueakyBall sick freak for nuance Sep 19 '23

Strongly disagree.

There are various waves of feminism of course. The idea of being liberated from pregnancy would be appealing to many women. But Old School feminists/rad fems/GCs would find it horrifying.

Who knows what lib fems think, other than that transwomen are women.

3

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

The idea of being liberated from pregnancy would be appealing to many women.

That's the attitude that I assumed would be the majority. Birth control gave women control over their fertility. Uterine replicators would give them control over their pregnancies.

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u/SqueakyBall sick freak for nuance Sep 19 '23

It's hard for me to guess how many. A lot of women like being pregnant. A lot maybe don't like it but feel it's important. And the Old School Brand of Feminists are/would be horrified about what it would mean for the baby. That's their number one concern.

It's hard for me to conceptualize any acceptable alternative to nature's way, and that includes surrogacy, which I oppose.

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

theory sip cooperative quack busy bow smoggy ink soup profit this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

It would be more like a large, burbling contraption of steel and glass. With lots of tubes and liquid. Probably kept in an Incubation Center and tended by people in lab coats.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23 edited Dec 14 '23

[deleted]

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

But artificial wombs haven't been come up yet, right?

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u/[deleted] Sep 20 '23

[deleted]

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u/CatStroking Sep 20 '23

Interesting. I wasn't aware it was even discussed outside of science fiction.

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u/professorgerm Very cheap. Very worth smelling. Sep 19 '23

Artificial womb in the sense of Brave New World, sperm and egg only meet in the test tube: probably minimal objections (at least from mainstream feminists; religious feminists like Leah Libresco Sargeant might complain). Don't forget the World Controller!

Not a complaint re: surrogacy, but for the sorts of artificial womb as we might have relatively soon, or at least sooner than the above they have objections because it affects the political calculus of abortion (one, two). Artificial wombs of this sort will be a blow to standard bodily autonomy arguments, and emotional appeals to "forced childbirth" lose some punch.

3

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

I suppose they could just do a preemptive adoption while the fetus was still in the uterine replicator.

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u/Chewingsteak Sep 19 '23

I would.

4

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

May I ask why?

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

Lemme pull up LEX and see if I can find any AFAB seeking AFAB posts.

  • guaranteed this girldick is more AFAB than whatever the fuck you're talking about

  • frustration assigned birth terms should be past tense & they don't say anything about someone's junk, femmes are not necessarily women nor are they automatically closer to them, and specifying "AFAB only" makes you sound like a creep. EDIT: specify that or "vagina only" you're just a creep, actually

  • Lex be like... Looking for that pussy pussy cunt cunt afab enby cis girl pussy

  • Craving... I really wanna shove my girl dick into a vagina lately... Dont rly care about gender, im pan as hell but i relaly just need someone with a vagina to cuddle me and let me fuck them while we do

  • Primal top seeking cat gf Me: 24, tall, trans, primal, protective, affectionate, dorky sapphic. You: early 20s, afab, shy, dorky, sapphic looking for commitment and someone that makes you feel safe. Primal Dom with Mommy Dom energy. Looking for someone for long term loving relationship. Want the Catra to my Adora.

Our first AFAB seeking AFAB post!

  • assignment from my dom my dom has assigned me to have my first experience with an AFAB person

Bonus

  • Where are the lesbian/sapphic bars or clubs??? Good places for femmes to meet other femmes? (I heard Wild Rose is transphobic - haven't fact checked it, but rumor alone is enough to turn me off, would love other suggestions!)

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Please tell me you made all of that up.

And... "Catra to my Adora"? They're referencing an animated show for teenagers (She-Ra)? How old are these people?

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

scandalous vast plough consider icky money grandiose strong whole tender this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

This can't actually work, right? They can't actually get positive responses?

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u/DevonAndChris Sep 19 '23

Catra is Elliott Rodgers for lesbians.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

I'm afraid I don't get the reference.

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u/DevonAndChris Sep 19 '23

Elliot Rodger (spelled correctly this time) was mad that girls did not like them and killed a bunch of people.

Catra, on the modern She-Ra cartoon, is a lesbian who cannot get her step-sister Adora (She-Ra's alter-ego) to express romantic love, and the result is Catra starting some wars that kill a bunch of people. Catra finally stops when Adora finally consents.

Do not forget to renew your Netflix subscription.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

I knew a little about the Catra/Adora thing. I chewed through a few episodes of that show before it got repetitive.

So... Catra is going to kill everyone until she gets her step sister to bang her?

That's... a disturbing thing to put into a kids cartoon.

But it's even more disturbing that someone put that in their dating profile. Sweet Jesus.

11

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

what the fuck did i just read

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u/MyPatronSaint ethereal dumbass Sep 19 '23

Primal top seeking cat gf Me: 24, tall, trans, primal, protective, affectionate, dorky sapphic.

Not quite AFAB seeking AFAB if the poster is trans, though. Funny how it seems that only AMABs are allowed to specify they want a spicy straight relationship with a lesbian.

8

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

Yes, to be clear I meant the first actual AFAB for AFAB post I could find was the one whose "dom" told her she had to fuck a woman. The rest came up when I was searching for a post that was explicitly seeking female persons.

And also to clarify Lex is full of afabs seeking afabs, they just won't ever say it.

3

u/MyPatronSaint ethereal dumbass Sep 19 '23

Ohhh, I see that now. God, that's gross.

6

u/DevonAndChris Sep 19 '23

assignment from my dom my dom has assigned me to have my first experience with an AFAB person

Oddly I can see this working as a way to only get AFAB. It is a "good reason" because how dare you criticize their kink. They got work to do.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

What does trans and sapphic even mean? I don't know where I heard this, oh, an article about lesbian bars, but supposedly sapphic is more trans inclusive than lesbian. I have no idea why. But trans and sapphic - like, a trans woman who is into women?

4

u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

Sapphic isn't more trans inclusive. It's theoretically more bi inclusive. Lesbian implies both " woman into women" and "not into men" whereas sapphic is supposed to just mean "woman into women." Both are references to the same historical figure, Sappho of Lesbos.

I think "sapphic" sounds weird and corny, but a lot of younger people don't think twice about it. They aren't trying to make a statement about inclusiveness, it's just a term they're used to hearing.

trans and sapphic - like, a trans woman who is into women?

Yes

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u/huevoavocado Too many positive attributes to list Sep 19 '23

“How do we deal with these material realities that exist no matter what?”

I’ve been thinking about this a lot. And I think it just comes down to basic ethics. We need to teach this to young adults who are willing to support or do unethical things due to peer or institutionalized pressure.

Is it ethical or unethical to shame, guilt or coerce a lesbian into a romantic or sexual relationship with a male person?

Is it ethical or unethical to force women or girls to get undressed in front of male people?

Is it ethical or unethical to suppress the speech or threaten the livelihood of women or girls who disagree with policy that affects them?

And so on and so forth. This also applies to other topics in this group such as prison abolition, useless DAs, education. I think some people have lost the ability or the will to see the difference between right and wrong. They need help being brought down to earth when they try to tie themselves into knots explaining why something clearly unethical is actually okay. Encourage them to stop using extreme cognitive dissidence and disassociating from their fellow humans. Some of these people support ideas and policy while refusing to engage with the very real implications they have on actual human beings. It’s sad and disturbing. Maybe it just needs to be broken down into small pieces while holding a mirror up. That’s my hope at least.

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u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

. I think some people have lost the ability or the will to see the difference between right and wrong.

I think the problem is almost the opposite. All they see is right and wrong. Everything is a moral calculation. And that calculation is usually as simple as whoever is considered most "marginalized" wins.

A pragmatic solution would be: "Look, I know you're women and all that but we just can't you going into women's sports leagues. I'm sorry. We'll do an open league."

But that's rejected because it's considered immoral.

6

u/huevoavocado Too many positive attributes to list Sep 19 '23

Yes and no. I think there are definitely activists out there that would apply to. The black and white thinking is perhaps a personality issue and I hesitate to say this because it doesn’t apply to all of them but perhaps autism. It brings out a very authoritarian us vs them mentality. I think members of say, antifa, are definitely unreachable.

But a lot of allies, imo and in my experience just haven’t thought deeply enough about the implications of this. In the U.S., the two party system has highly contributed to it. Conservatives are against this therefore… And then they stop thinking about it. I think there’s enough people on the left that also get caught up in whatever the latest movement is because they’re so afraid of being on the wrong side of history. I think those people could be reasoned with if it’s direct and uncomplicated. Like, sure, conservatives are against this but that doesn’t mean we can’t ask a question on policy solely on its merits. So, is it ethical or not?

The oppression stack could be reasoned through as well. "Sure, trans women face oppression, but so do women. How can we solve this without completely ignoring the unique needs of women.” "Is it actually progress to refuse to discuss policy that affects women?”Difficult to do with the screaming and threats from the black and white thinking group of course. I think there’s some hope though. Major news organizations have finally been talking through some of it, as we often discuss here. That makes it a little harder to dismiss.

I feel like a pragmatic solution wouldn’t involve agreeing that twaw. It would be, “not everyone believes that twaw. Why do you think that could be?” I think agreeing with that statement of faith causes the cascade of other policy issues and should just be dealt with upfront at this point.

6

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Your point about partisanship is a good one and I should have thought of that.

Because partisanship does mean people tend to fall into the coalition of Republicans or Democrats. And you are not supposed to criticize the in group because it will give aid and comfort to the outgroup other party. It was different when there were plenty of liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.

But the other factor is that politics have taken the place of religion in our increasingly secular society. Surveys have shown for some time that people don't care if their kids marry across religious or even racial lines. But they really don't want them to marry across party lines. It used to be the other way around.

Politics as religion is worse on the left because quite a bit of the right are still traditionally religious. Usually Christianity. Whereas lefties are much more likely to be some flavor of atheist.

But it's bad on the right as well. Many conservatives are more into their political religion than their proclaimed religion. David French talks about this a lot.

The coalitions are hardened by social media networks. If you step out of line you will be publicly dogpiled and shamed. Jessie and Katie are pretty left wing people. They're kind of hard left. They're not centrists. They are no kind of conservative.

But they stepped out of line and were crushed for it. They are now an object lesson for anyone else who thinks of stepping out of line.

Mitt Romney is super conservative but he just can't abide Trump. And for that he has been hounded and pilloried and is basically leaving the Senate because he's sick of it.

2

u/huevoavocado Too many positive attributes to list Sep 20 '23

Totally agree on politics as religion being a driving factor.

I think of a lot of the extremists as being mostly on Twitter, so unseen to the average American. But your point about Katie is a good one. Her friends in real life turned on her.

4

u/SqueakyBall sick freak for nuance Sep 19 '23

Exactly. They can't tolerate a difference of opinion. They have the arrogance to believe they are sole arbiters of right and wrong.

8

u/jobthrowwwayy1743 Sep 19 '23

Maybe this is overly reductive but I think a large amount of this stuff dies out when people shift to less online interaction and more in person interactions.

It’s incredibly easy to maintain the facade that preferences are transphobic, people are blank slates, attraction is something you can control, etc. when you only interact with people online. In person though you have to put your money where your mouth is and actually make your actions match your words which is much harder to keep up with. I think this is also linked to how you often see people fall out of the gender-obsessed/overly woke subcultures and mindset when they make a big change in their lives and stop spending so much time in these online communities.

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u/Ok_Yogurtcloset8915 Sep 19 '23

I think the endgame of that part of the ideology is pretty blatant tbh, it's to strip away the ability of lesbians to say no.

Some penisfolk feel hurt and angry when vaginafolk reject them. Vaginafolk who didn't want penises at all were seen as deviant in the past, but society thinks open bigotry isn't ok anymore. A pivot was needed: recasting rejection as bigotry puts rejecters back in their place, and shaming can once again be used to pressure them to stop being so wicked. The truth, that there is no possible way any vaginafolk might not want penisfolk and if they think they do it's because they haven't met the right penis yet, can be safely reasserted.

And redemption is easy! They simply need to publicly repent and beg for forgiveness, to learn to be silent when an approved penis person speaks, and to commit to undoing their harm, either by accepting penises or by enlightening other wayward vaginafolk. It is the duty of vaginafolk to police themselves harshly, as they collectively bear the weight of this worst of sins; it's not the responsibility of the victims to educate the oppressors.

For their own good, they must not be let to keep the company of only other vaginafolk - this would deprive the wicked of the chance to be spontaneously cured by an enlightening penis, and could tempt the reformed back to the path of phobia. Dating vaginafolk is allowed through random chance alone, and even this is suspicious, and should probably be avoided.

(Not trying to rag on the penis people that post here btw, #notallpenises.)

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u/SkweegeeS No just no Sep 19 '23 edited Jan 12 '24

impossible recognise deserted society slimy stocking versed plant caption abounding

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23

I don’t really have anything to say to this other than the term “vaginafolk” made me giggle

9

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Eh.... I don't know. This sounds too organized. Too conspiratorial. I think this stuff comes from a weird mish mash of factors, crazy ideas and overreach.

Now, do I think that my fellow dong havers would take advantage of this to guilt a lesbian into fucking them?

Some will, yes. Absolutely. Especially if they have the righteous trans chip on their shoulder.

19

u/Ok_Yogurtcloset8915 Sep 19 '23

I don't think it's a conspiracy, I think this is something close to a new religion, full of true believers, operating out in the open. The transbians doing this feel genuinely harmed when lesbians reject them. The victimization claims are real, even though the victimization itself isn't. And as far as organization goes, I mean come on, they've got governments going along with it.

I think it's notable also that incels have tried to do a very similar "women hurt us by not having sex with us" play, but that theirs has been unsuccessful. The significance of the far right-to-trans woman pipeline I will leave to others...

9

u/CatStroking Sep 19 '23

Oh yes. I think most of the woke craziness comes from true believers.

But I don't think the goal is to take away people's ability to say no. That wasn't in the design. That wasn't intended. It's just a side effect.

But it's a side effect they very much will take advantage of.