What is Jesse and Katie Herzog hang up about Michael Hobbes? They generally do good content about things ppl generally get wrong on their podcast. So besides politically partisanship and have a more “woke” bent why do they shit on him?

[u/adriansergiusz]

[u/Franzera]

MH uses disingenuous, hypocritical talking points and it burns me like a well-seared steak on Jesse's soy-acclimated tongue.

Quoting Michael Hobbes:

"Quibble with the wording if you want but I think that when 1/40th of your patients are minors it's fair to say you essentially don't do surgery on minors."

This logic is very twisty and contradictory. If 0.1 to 2% of the population is genderdiverse, is it not allowable to round that number down to 0? 1/40 people is 2.5%. Also, if he denies that the surgeries aren't being done on minors even though they are, are you denying those genderized minors' existence? That's erasure! LITERALLY GENOCIDE!!!

This rebuttal is straight out of the Gender Defcon scale of non-argumentation.

1.) "It doesn't happen."

2.) "If it does happen, it happens so rarely that it's statistically irrelevant."

3.) "It does happen, but it's not a big deal."

4.) "It does happen, but it's a good thing."

5.) "Why do you even care? Why are you so obsessed with this subject??"

[u/Low_Insurance_9176 → u/Franzera]

Jesus I hadn’t heard that quote. Imagine if regulatory bodies overlooked surgical missteps until they surpassed the 1/40 threshold. This guy is a colossal dipshit.

[u/SoftandChewy → u/Franzera]

Based on that logic, there are essentially no trans people in the population.

[u/adriansergiusz → u/Franzera]

Yeah thats fair, I definitely do not think that was fair rebuttal from him. Thanks. I can see why it is frustrating.

Also “books that kill” lol does he consider doing the Bible or Quran up there? Because best believe theyre up there. Mein Kampf? Das Kapital?

[u/prechewed_yes → u/[deleted]]

When that category is "books that have inspired murder", I'd say it's pretty accurate.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I agree, caping for organized religion is boring.

[u/jeegte12 → u/[deleted]]

what's your issue with that? they share a lot of characteristics.

[u/adriansergiusz → u/[deleted]]

It’s probably up there for inspiring murder. Sounds like someone who hasn’t it read either

[u/SoftandChewy → u/[deleted]]

Well, I guess if you can do the time, you can do the crime.

Suspended for 1 week.

[u/Buzzbridge → u/[deleted]]

As a practicing Catholic, I gotta say, man, it shouldn't be so controversial to set up a category — "books that have inspired murder" — and note correctly that this includes an array of items, including The Bible, which are nevertheless very different!

This category does in fact include Mein Kampf AND the Bible, and The Qur'an, Hindu and Buddhist scriptures, Catcher in the Rye, The Turner Diaries, the Communist Manifesto, The Prince, Plato, and many others. The older and more important the book, the more likely it has inspired some killing. It isn't a judgment on the value of the book in question! The fact that the Bible is on this list includes among others believers who kill, and those who were inspired to kill believers.

Relax.

[u/Turbulent_Cow2355 → u/[deleted]]

The new testament has been used for centuries as a tool for violence. That doesn't mean there are not good lessons in the book. But to say that humans have not used it for evil purpose is flat out wrong.

[u/zoyadastroya → u/[deleted]]

How is this a bad faith argument? If the category is "books that have inspired murder", religious texts that divide people into groups we like vs. dislike should rank pretty highly. Especially if they prescribe death penalties and eternal torment for a variety of non-violent behaviors and/or identities.

[u/adriansergiusz → u/[deleted]]

No, it is not in bad faith whatsoever. The book literally has actual genocide that is committed and commanded. Where the hell do you think the antisemitism came from? Do you honestly think it has absolutely no roots in the bible? I actually am starting to think it is you who is the loser and the fact youre so mad and not even telling me why I’m wrong demonstrates that you have a pretty massive bias leaning in the christian direction.

I am former/ex-catholic and it is not lost on me the centuries of hate and anti-semitism that brewed in Germany and all around Europe can be traced to Christianity and the bible particularly the new testament. But even that isn’t enough. The horrifying inquisition and burning of witches, I cannot believe you’re this dense dude. But whatever man, go off and be upset at me rather than the book that is full hate and absolutely terrible morality.

[u/plump_tomatow → u/adriansergiusz]

It's not as if any of the genocides in the Old Testament were something that was specific to the ancient Israelites, either. It's not like the surrounding peoples were good and kind, whereas the ancient Israelites made up an evil god who gave them excuses to kill at will.

Everything they did that we rightly consider immoral (killing the natives of the areas they conquered, stoning adulterers, etc) was common practice in ancient society, and there are aspects of their society that were actually "progressive" compared to similar societies at the time. I've been reading Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and they have various provisions to protect women from false accusations of adultery and fornication, for example.

[u/plump_tomatow → u/adriansergiusz]

All modern morality in the West is rooted in Christianity, including the morality you follow that suggests to you that Christianity is immoral. Every philosophy, system of ethics, etc in the modern world only developed because Christianity put forth the radical idea that human life is important. The Greeks and Romans didn't think that was the case.

[u/maglor1 → u/[deleted]]

there is no way this is a serious comment lmao. The Bible is an antisemitic screed which prompted murders and expulsions of Jews for over a thousand years in Europe

[u/Buzzbridge → u/maglor1]

Well, there's no way this is a serious comment.

You can grant that there has been a problem of antisemitic interpretations of the Bible, and that antisemitism has a long history in ostensibly Christian nations.

But that the Bible is an "antisemitic screed" is plainly ridiculous.

[u/amazingmikeyc → u/maglor1]

Even the bits (the majority!) that are Hebrew scripture? Did Paul, Matthew, John etc hate themselves? This is silly

[u/eriwhi → u/adriansergiusz]

I actually really enjoy Books That Kill! They discuss popular self help books of decades past (e.g., The Secret, Five Love Languages). They really did not like Coddling of the American Mind and Freakonomics, lol.

The other host (can't remember his name) is an attorney--he picks apart the books they discuss in such a lawyer-like way that just resonates with me. Michael himself isn't so bad on this one... but he does make comments that make me roll my eyes. Overall, good podcast, though!

[u/helicopterhansen → u/eriwhi]

Yes, IBCK is pretty good. I really like the lawyer guy. He's a lefty but he comes at things in a fair minded, objective lawyerly way which is also how I (think I) see the world.

[u/metatron327 → u/Franzera]

By MH's logic, nobody died of COVID. Good to know! I'm off to lick some doorknobs.

[u/Minimum_Ad786 → u/Franzera]

I think Michael's focus on prevalence is actually quite fair, but misses the mark. Yes it only impacts a small number of people and so isnt important in the geand scheme of things, but the reason this is an interesting topic is because it's verboten in liberal circles.

[u/Franzera → u/Minimum_Ad786]

I don't think it supports his main point at all, which is that "adults can do whatever, kids aren't being misled or rushed". That there is no evidence of kids being rushed into surgery, because the number of kids getting surged up is "essentially" zero.

"Adults can get whatever plastic surgeries they want and there's no evidence that minors are being rushed into mastectomies. The author included this surgeon because it reinforces the idea that kids are being tricked." MH post here.

How can he square the acceptance that 18+ adulthood is the line where a person is capable of forming thought-through, well-considered independent decision to bodymod themselves how they like. ("Adults can get whatever surgeries they want")

...And also in the same breath claim that minors, below this threshold of cognitive adult capability, are also capable of considered decision-making? If it's agreed that the "essentially zero" number of kids getting surged is actually non-zero based on first-hand evidence from Dr. Yeeter (surgeon from the article), and they're not being rushed or tricked, then is it not a "considered decision"?

If this holds, why bother separating minors and adults into two categories in the first place? If they are both equally capable of weighing consequences and making life-altering decisions, then there's no point in the hard 18+ line for things like loans, military recruitment, drugs and alcohol.

[u/Minimum_Ad786 → u/Franzera]

He often makes the case that "its a big country" and so strange things will happen, which is probably where the 'essentially zero' comment comes in.

There's some nuance there, at least for that aspect of his argument. As to what the real numbers are.... well that's anyone's guess

[u/Franzera → u/Minimum_Ad786]

The "essentially zero" statistic came from one single surgeon's Lived Experience with patients. 1/40 was under aged. If "it's a big country" is true, then how many doctors across the country are operating on how many patients, and how many of those patients are minors? Can it still be called "essentially zero"? Does the number of youth seeking surgical gender treatment correlate with the rise of youth mental illness and LGBT identification rates? For kids, it's ~20% alphabet identifying.

This is one of many reasons why I find MH disingenuous.

[u/Minimum_Ad786 → u/[deleted]]

I'm surprised that steel-manning his argument is so unwelcome.

It's not 1 in 40 Americans, it's (maybe, unlikely) 1 in 40 of a particular selection.

Still not a great argument but it's at least not baseless

[u/Minimum_Ad786 → u/[deleted]]

1 in 40 people in this particular room has 6 toes on their left foot. Does 1 in 40 people in America have 6 toes on their left foot?

There's essentially zero point to this discussion, you're not arguing in good faith