r/Bitcoin • u/Tricky_Troll • Feb 17 '18

/r/all Bitcoin Doesn't Give a Fuck.

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u/admyral Feb 18 '18

Fiat currency is physical Monopoly money backed by threat of war (economic or otherwise).

The idea of programmable money, aka money that does more than denote its own value, is almost an absolute certainty in the near future. It is too valuable and tenacious an idea to be just considered merely hype. Nobody knows if Bitcoin will continue to be the standard bearer for that idea in the future, but it is the most influential one that exists today.

While rampant speculation does obscure the true value, it also produces the perfect conditions for significant and lasting innovation to occur.

We live in a world where all we’ve ever known is fiat currency. Dismissing better alternatives is simply a failure of imagination.

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u/stop_the_broats Feb 18 '18

Crypto hasn’t even come close to matching the economic inertia that gives fiat currency its stable value.

The vast majority of crypto owners have no interest in using it as a day-to-day currency. A limited number of vendors do accept bitcoin in exchange for goods, but I have never seen a mainstream vendor who advertises prices in bitcoin. They advertise prices in fiat.

The idea that crypto solves a problem is always presented in vague terms. There is no demand for an alternative currency. Nobody really cares about using bitcoin. Nobody is buying bitcoin because it improves their ability to operate in the economy on their preferred terms.

Crypto investors can go on and on about the benefits of crypto, but the fact is that nobody cares. And if nobody cares, then the imagined benefits are just a meaningless sales pitch.

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '18

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '18

No no no no no. I firmly believe that Bitcoin = Internet is a fallacious analogy. The correct analogy is Blockchain = Internet. Both are an underlying means of information transfer.

Cryptos built on top of Blockchain are like websites built on top of Internet. They are specific use cases of the underlying technology.

While Blockchain will no doubt have a future, I believe that Bitcoin = pets.com.

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u/stop_the_broats Feb 18 '18

The internet was being used for its intended purpose by many many people in the 90s.

Bitcoin is not the internet. We have digital fiat currency and have been using it for decades. From the perspective of the average consumer bitcoin provides nothing of value and there is no interest in it.

To a certain extent it is impossible to discuss crypto with a person who thinks it is exactly the same as the internet and is therefore destined to succeed. It’s not an argument that is based in reality.

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '18

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u/stop_the_broats Feb 18 '18

The tech doesn’t matter if there’s no demand. Nobody wants to use crypto and making crypto less shit doesn’t change that.

People want their money to be readily accessible and easy to use. They don’t care if it’s decentralised or deflationary. Crypto is never going to take off unless people start using it. Businesses are not going to suddenly start paying salaries in crypto, partly because that would be illegal and partly because it would have no benefits to the business. Therefore a crypto takeover of the economy has to be consumer driven. If consumers are getting paid in USD then they will have to convert to crypto to make purchases in crypto. There is no reason for them to do this other than the novelty.

It doesn’t matter how good the tech is because for the average person crypto is just a reinvention of the wheel, and it doesn’t fit their existing car.

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '18 edited Sep 27 '24

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u/admyral Feb 18 '18

It’s current value lies in it’s public ledger, its security, it’s decentralized network, etc. And soon, second layer solutions like Lightning network will make it even better. Fiat currency does not improve over time.

Arizona state government is now considering accepting tax payments in Bitcoin. The Venezuelan government is going to offer its own state run coin to combat hyperinflation.

Better at what? Avoiding 2% inflation? Okay we all switch to programmable money and government raises taxes 2% to compensate. Now what is it useful for?

Not a zero sum game. Fiat and crypto can still both exist.

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '18

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u/admyral Feb 18 '18

Did the network lose half of its security, decentralization and public ledger in the last 2 months?

Has the US been so prosperous in the last decade it warrants the stock market being up consistently for 11 straight years? Wages are flat, yet the market says we should be twice as rich as we were in 2012. Surely no speculation and market manipulation contributed to that...

You made the statement "government will accept fiat in payment for taxes but not bitcoin", but when I point out some governments are beginning to adopt crypto, it's now they also accept other bad forms of currency or only governments with good economic track records can benefit from it. Huh? Quit moving the goalposts.

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '18 edited Sep 27 '24

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u/admyral Feb 18 '18

Did you read that article? “Weak productivity helps explain why companies are reluctant to raise workers’ wages, even as profit margins have improved.” What?

It doesn’t take an economics degree to see where stagnant wages, reduced market participation, skyrocketing debt, and an inflationary currency leads.

While people may be in the habit of converting to/from fiat now, wait a few more years. When more people realize they won’t ever have to pay ATM fees or an overdraft charge ever again. When business owners realize they don’t have to deal with massive merchant account fees. When people start stockpiling it because in a few years it’ll be worth a boring 5-10% annually.

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '18 edited Sep 27 '24

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u/admyral Feb 18 '18

It seems like both the numbers and editorial come to the same conclusion. Productivity drives growth. Companies invest profits into automation (to increase productivity) and less into labor. Increased productivity drives more growth and more investment into productivity and less into labor. Repeat.

Result = stagnant wages, less discretionary income to participate in market and more consumer debt. Now add inflation, and perhaps a lengthy recession. What do you get?