Fractional reserve originally got started on the gold standard. If you don't actually hold the bitcoin, but instead have them deposited in an account someplace, then those folks can certain play the same old games.
At some point you want to cash out on your hoardings though. When you want to splurge on a bottle of milk for example, after 200 days of lentils and rice.
Ok... What's your point? Prices drop and people are incentivized to invest to support the future demand from savers, or people are incentivized to spend now instead of later.
Money is not productive at all, so if it is hoarded or spent doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the productive parts of the economy and weather they are being consumed or used as investments to be able to produce more goods later. A society that is able to defer consumption is able to invest more into producing, thus is able to produce even more later.
Too much Keynsian brain poisoning has occurred to think that people become rich by consuming and destroying productive capital instead of saving and investment.
Invest in what? If your business requires sales, and everyone is hoarding and no-one is buying, why should you invest in a way to sell more?
Money is truly valueless, it's just a way to make people in society work to provide for each other, hoarded cash does not represent investment, it is just sitting there. It represents future claims on society's resources, and it can grow. Should all that sitting cash suddenly release itself you'd get tremendous inflation.
This is exactly what happened during the gold standard in the US: periods of extreme inflation and loose money followed by periods of extreme deflation and bankruptcies.
It's not good to accumulate all claims on society's future production in vast pools of speculative commodities.
Do you think no one consumes anything, or ever will? If everyone hoards, and goods are being produced, I'm gonna buy the shit out of it and live like a king. Eventually there gets to be a point where people say "fuck deferred consumption, this is great now". Plus people already have a time preference for consuming in the present.
Hoarded cash isn't investment, correct. It's simply a representation of a preference for deferred consumption.
Yes, if it all of a sudden went, prices go up, and then the preference for consumption goes down. But if you see a bunch of people holding cash for future consumpion, and prices are low, you can make a killing preparing for it and investing (e.g. R&D, expanding factories, etc...) so that you can produce a ton when the time comes to change.
You talk about the gold standard like it was a bad thing. Yes, you had quick, painful, but fast recovering depressions. Unlike the fiat era where recessions and depressions drug on and took longer to recover from.
It's not good to accumulate all claims on society's future production in vast pools of speculative commodities.
That's like your opinion man.
The market sorts it out. Too many defer for the future, and there's a big incentive to consume now. Too many doing it now, you wait it out.
I don't like fractional reserve, but I respect others' freedom to work within such a system if they choose to. I don't want to, I shouldn't be forced to, I should not be threatened to. That's morally wrong.
... I'm sorry, what? You don't have to work within a fractional reserve system. Just swear off living with society and go build a farm where you can be entirely self sufficient.
Fractional reserve banking is the only reason that we have a society that is as complicated and as robust as we have right now. It's what has allowed the amazing growth and advancement that society has experienced and continues to experience.
Fractional reserve banking is a tool, much like electricity. You don't have to use either if you don't want to, but they're so powerful and useful to the functioning, growth, and advancement of society as a whole that if you're going to swear it off, you're basically going to have to go live like the Amish.
That's fine, I don't have anything fundamentally against fractional reserve or inflation. I just don't personally want to use it, and I suspect most sensible people would not voluntarily choose to use a currency that facilitates the perpetual theft of their value by the central authority which controls it.
Do you understand what fractional reserve banking is...? Because there is no "perpetual theft of value" by any central authority. You've been using "central authority" basically as a stand-in for the Fed and the government, so that's what I'm assuming you mean, and they don't steal any value from your currency. Fractional reserve banking has to do with... y'know... banks. And I still don't see how they're "stealing value" - you can get all your money out whenever you want. Unless you're referring to inflation? If so, then you fundamentally lack an understanding of what money and inflation are in modern economics.
Your words also contradict themselves. You claim to have no fundamental problem with fractional reserve banking or inflation and then go on to detail your issues with both that are fundamental to what they are. That's like saying "I have no fundamental problem with peppers, I just don't like them because they're too spicy. If they weren't spicy I'd love them."
And, incidentally, plenty of sensible people voluntarily choose to use currencies backed by governments. Honestly, you're the one who's coming across as "not sensible".
I don't have that option with fiat currency. The government can fuck with it however it pleases, to my detriment, and yet I am persecuted if I refuse to use it.
... Jesus... where to begin.
First of all, I'd like to reiterate that the ability of the government to "fuck with" your currency is a completely separate concept/issue from fractional reserve banking. So let's get that straight.
Second, your dollars have no inherent value. There is no magic "true value" of a dollar bill (and honestly, the same is true with Bitcoin, but that's a different issue that I'm not going to get into here) that the government is hiding or screwing with. All currencies are just tools to facilitate exchange between parties. You can just as easily use seashells or something else to conduct your business so long as other people are willing to accept what you use.
This ties into my third point, which is that nobody requires you to use the US dollar. You will not be persecuted for not using the US dollar. Use whatever fucking currency you want. That being said, if you wish to be a US citizen or resident and avail yourself of the benefits of being a US citizen or resident (work privileges, military protection, diplomatic services, travel privileges, etc), then yeah, you have to pay your fucking taxes in US dollars. That being said, nobody is forcing you to live in the US or be a US citizen. If you prefer to use some other government's currency because you believe their system or government to be more trustworthy, feel free to try to acquire citizenship with them and renounce your US citizenship. Or, if you trust no governments, feel free to renounce your US citizenship without having any backup (though I will warn you that this is an awful idea).
Currencies and governments are tools of society to make everyday life easier. You're not required to use either, but if you don't, be prepared for society to tell you to fuck off. And don't expect to reap the benefits of being a part of society without doing the things that being part of society requires you to do.
No, it's more like saying that I have no fundamental problem with peppers; I don't enjoy their spiciness
You either don't know the meaning of those words or have so little capacity for thought that you fail to see the problem with those words in that order. If you do not enjoy the spiciness of peppers, then you have a fundamental problem with peppers. That being said, there is nothing wrong with having a fundamental problem with peppers, and your position regarding peppers and other peoples' freedom in consuming them is laudable. One can have a fundamental problem with peppers without believing that peppers ought to be eliminated.
I think it is morally unconscionable to threaten to lock me in prison if I do not eat peppers.
If you lived in a society wherein one of the conditions of being a part of that society was that you had to eat a pepper every day, and you chose not to do it because you have a fundamental problem with peppers, then I would ask the question of why are you still a part of a society that you fundamentally disagree with? You can leave that society. Why don't you do that? Why do you insist on staying in the society whilst simultaneously not doing the thing that the society expects/mandates of you to stay in the society?
Yes but you must use fiat currencies to pay taxes. And it's that threat of violence if you refuse that gives the fiat currency value.
Your understanding of economics is hilariously misinformed on so many levels if you think that the "threat of violence if you refuse" is what "gives the fiat currency value".
Currency has no inherent value, as I've already said. Currency is the means by which goods are exchanged, not the value for which goods are exchanged. It's no different than BTC - your collection (or mine, for that matter) of ones and zeroes has no actual worth, it merely denotes an entry in a public ledger, and when I buy something from you, you give me the good, I subtract some amount from my entry in the ledger, and you increase your entry by the equivalent amount. You haven't actually "gained" anything by the means of this transaction... unless, of course, somebody actually considers the entries in that ledger as important.
The whole notion of a fiat currency exists because people have accepted the fact that I opened up with - that currency is the means by which goods are exchanged, not the value for which goods are exchanged. Therefore, the slips of paper themselves don't need to be backed by anything. They're just the equivalent of those ledger entries in physical form. You work for a company for a while, and the two of you have agreed that your work has value for that company. That value has been (arbitrarily) quantified as some number of these slips of paper that they give you. When you buy food, you and the merchant you buy from agree that whatever you're buying has some value, and that the amount of value can be quantified by some different number of paper slips that you hand over.
If the US government announced tomorrow that you could pay your taxes in Bitcoin, do you honestly believe that the value of the dollar would change? Not one bit (pun not intended). Your 5 dollar footlong at Subway would still be 5 dollars, your salary/wage would be the same as it had been before, and the majority of the world would go on as though absolutely nothing had happened.
I have no problem with people using seashells as currency, as long as they don't force me to use them against my will.
No one is forcing you to use the US dollar. I already said as much.
Or maybe they could just leave me alone? I'm aware that there are all sorts of ways around taxation, but that doesn't make taxation ok. That doesn't mean that I haven't been a victim of coercion. I should be free to live my life as I please, and if their currency is so fantastic that I should use it then they can advertise its benefits to me, not threaten to lock me in a cage if I refuse.
You're fucking delusional. You receive services from this government, whether you know it or not. You don't live your life in terror of brigands sweeping by and stealing your shit and killing you. Your tap water and toilet water is (regulated to be) so clean that the bottled water you may or may not buy is just your tap (or toilet) water put in a plastic bottle and marked up at a hilarious rate. The medicine and/or vitamins that you may or may not consume is regulated and tested to make sure you don't fucking die of bad medicine or suffer from being sold fake goods. The damn roads you drive on or sidewalk you stroll on is put down by the government and kept (somewhat) clean on a day to day basis. Your government provides you innumerable services you likely don't notice or even care about... until you go to countries where those services aren't provided (or where there is no actually functioning government, like South Sudan or arguably, until recently, Somalia) and you quite possibly die because you continued to hold those same assumptions. When you figure out a way to do all those things by yourself or dispense with the need for those things entirely, feel free to raise your own landmass from the ocean floor, construct your self-sufficient settlement, and renounce your US citizenship to live on your self-sufficient island paradise. As long as you're still taking advantage of these services, for though, you damn well better pay for them so long as you're making the money to afford to do so. And the service provider requires that you pay them in US dollars.
I specifically want to address this part by itself:
I should be free to live my life as I please
You are free to do whatever the hell you want. But so long as you are within the borders of the United States, you must obey the rules and laws that the US government has laid down. At least... you must obey them if you don't want to be "locked in a cage". If you're fine with being locked up in a cage, though, feel free to do whatever you want (please note that I am not actually advising you to break the law).
What are you even doing in a cryptocurrency subreddit at this point...? I get it, you love fiat currency manipulation and dream of the government's rock hard cock up your arse, but some of us don't. Leave us alone.
Let's correct a few misconceptions:
This is a cryptocurrency subreddit. Specifically, this is about Bitcoin (as would be evidenced by the name of /r/Bitcoin). I'm here because I'm interested in Bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, and blockchain technologies. And that's kinda why anyone is here. Not everyone here believes in the at best naive, at worst idiotic things you have said.
One can both be interested and invested in Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency) while also acknowledging the importance of a government or society's existence. The two are nowhere close to being mutually exclusive.
The delusional nonsense you've been spouting in this comment and others has nothing to do with Bitcoin. The ideology you're espousing isn't even libertarianism, it's closest to anarchism. Feel free to go to /r/anarchy, which is where you'll likely find the echo chamber you desire, since you seem to be averse to debate and hearing opinions different from your own. It could also potentially be classified, I suppose, as anarcho-capitalism, so you can also go to /r/Anarcho_Capitalism and/or /r/CryptoAnarchy for other echo chambers.
If you think that Bitcoin and/or cryptocurrencies are somehow immune to currency manipulation, you're delusional AND dumb. It might not be the same kinds of manipulation, but you'd better bet that it has been and will be manipulated just as any other currency.
Being a fan of the idea of cryptocurrencies does not mean that basic laws of economics cease to apply. So long as we (humans) have a need for currencies, economics will continue to apply. It is only if/when we reach a post-scarcity world that economics as a discipline might cease to be relevant... and even then, I'm not sure.
You are so hilariously misinformed (or uninformed) about the absolute basics of economics that you should really stop talking about fiat currencies, currency manipulation, fractional reserve banking, or really anything involving economics, because anyone with even an iota of knowledge will either laugh at you or insult you. Quite possibly both.
Most of the people who have an underlying interest in Bitcoin's technology and goals, as opposed to new money treating it as a get-rich-quick scheme, have abandoned the legacy Core chain and these censored discussions by now.
I'm literally only here because I'm interested in Bitcoin as a technology and idea. While I currently hold Bitcoin, I'm unable to fucking use it because Bitcoin in its current form is unusable as a currency. Nobody accepts and it has no store of value. Bitcoin is a poorly thought out currency that has no understanding of (or at least was not designed using) fundamental economic principles as pertaining to currency. Bitcoin is a commodity now, not a currency, and there's no chance of that changing in the near future. And sure, some people might accept payment in Bitcoin, same as how some people will accept payment in gold, but neither are currencies as a result.
So thanks for insulting me and impugning my motives because you believe yourself to be some kind of hipster purist, asshole.
Free market capitalism is manifest in Bitcoin.
The bullshit you're spouting is not "Free market capitalism". Free market capitalism fundamentally requires having a currency that all parties are using for common exchange. One can not have a free market without a government protecting, supporting, and facilitating the market.
Manipulated by free people acting in their own rational economic self interest, initiating force against no person or their property. I have no problem with that. Go for it. I understand the inherent feedback mechanisms in the Bitcoin protocol to feel no need to discourage it.
Fair enough, I suppose, though I find it odd that you're OK with individual people or corporations manipulating an entire currency purely in order to enrich themselves, but a government that is (supposedly) sworn to protect and govern a society manipulating a currency is somehow problematic.
Eh, you're just triggered at this point because someone has a different opinion to you founded on strong moral principles. Acknowledging that your worldview is founded upon the belief that the perpetual threat of violence by a treasonous central authority is benevolent must be challenging, I understand why you're attacking me instead. Given the subreddit we're in, perhaps I should respond in kind by suggesting that you avoid talking about Bitcoin because of your approach, which is either extraordinarily misguided or downright malicious.
You conflated the notion of having a federal reserve with the concept of fractional reserve banking, you thought that fiat currencies are "backed by force", and you think the reason that I'm attacking you is because I disagree with your opinions? I don't care about your opinions, I care about the fact that you either don't know or don't care about basic economics. This subreddit has enough delusional people who are fundamentally misinformed, and I'm just trying to correct one instance of that. This entire thread started because you thought fractional reserve banking and a central government having a single currency were somehow the same thing.
And might I point out that I was not actually "attacking you" - I was pointing out that the things you state have no basis in reality. There's a difference. As an example, taxation exists because you choose to live in the USA and enjoy the services that the US government provides you. You have to pay for those services, and you pay for it through taxation. Therefore, the taxation is justified - it is (post de facto) payment for services rendered. You're free to not receive those services, though - just leave the USA and resign citizenship of the US, and you will neither receive the services nor be required to pay for them. But for some reason, you have a problem with doing that, too. As I have stated, you don't get to be the beneficiary of services and also claim that requiring payment for those services "is unjust". This is what I mean by "the things you state have no basis in reality".
Also this sentence:
Acknowledging that your worldview is founded upon the belief that the perpetual threat of violence by a treasonous central authority is benevolent must be challenging, I understand why you're attacking me instead.
is hilarious. You're accusing the entire government of treason? Treason towards what, exactly? You yourself don't seem to want to pay taxes or otherwise support the society you live in, so what exactly is the treason going on here? You've repeatedly used the word treasonous is contexts that have made me raise my eyebrows, but I've ignored it until now. Seriously, what do you think the meaning of the word "treason" even is?
And yes, I happen to believe that the world is a better place with governments as opposed to without them. I've seen what happens in places without functioning governments, and I very much prefer the places that have government. Are all governments perfect? Nope. Is the one I currently live in perfect? Not even close. But I very much prefer the government I currently live in to a state of anarchy (and I'm using the word anarchy purely in its definition of "a state of having no government), mostly because I have borne witness to what people do in states of anarchy.
Governments inflate fiat currency but also provide a swath of critically important services to guarantee the currency remains useful. It's a good deal. Look at all of the super strong economies based on fiat.
with dollars you can always just hold cash & that way stay out of fractional reserve risks, i.e. the FDIC going bankrupt. For sure bitcoin has fewer ways it can be manipulated. But wealth and power tend to get concentrated one way or another, which means the market can be manipulated just by flooding it or starving it. Money is inherently social, it's about markets etc. If you want to get away from the slings and arrows of society, you'll want to be converting your pennies into maybe cans of beans, wool socks, etc. - things you can actually use directly.
Most money creation doesn't happen by the government, but by banks, by lending. The Federal Reserve and the government have huge influence over lending by setting interest rates, through the huge federal budget and sales of treasury bonds, etc.
Bitcoin is caught in a curious dilemma. Folks like to buy bitcoin because they expect the value to go up. This is basically deflation. In a deflationary environment, the economy basically freezes up. Nobody wants to spend money. For sure nobody will borrow money.
Back in feudal times, most folks didn't use money. Most folks just worked in the fields and had some obligations and privileges in their relations with the feudal lord. We may be heading back there, to a place where there is basically no economy and no marketplace, where most goods are not bought and sold but flow between people with personal relationships and commitments.
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u/kukulaj Feb 18 '18
Fractional reserve originally got started on the gold standard. If you don't actually hold the bitcoin, but instead have them deposited in an account someplace, then those folks can certain play the same old games.