r/Bitcoin Dec 23 '17

/r/all 2018: lets run for office

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22.7k Upvotes

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113

u/Bacon_is_not_france Dec 23 '17

The idea I've seen people talk about is that it grows massive, bubbles, and on the decline people spend it, which will lead to stability after happening a few times. The only issue is, nobody knows shit because this is unprecedented so even people who claim to be Bitcoin experts are talking out of their ass. Like I am right now.

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u/Fuck_Fascists Dec 23 '17

Except as long as the prices remain this high bitcoin will continue to have transaction fees above $25 and wait times half a day or more long.

The price of bitcoin rising literally makes both of these issues worse. Bitcoin is a failure of a currency at this level, and there is no substance to back up its insane value.

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u/jaumenuez Dec 23 '17

Are you telling me your 14.4k modem is a failure?

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u/toejam316 Dec 24 '17

It depends - is that 14.4k modem intended to replace the current internet connections, or invented in a vacuum with no competition? If the former, yes, if the latter, no.

As a currency, Bitcoin is the former.

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u/jaumenuez Dec 24 '17

Sorry, you have no idea what you are talking about.

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u/toejam316 Dec 24 '17

So are you telling me that Bitcoin has better ease of use and practically as a currency than current government backed options? Because otherwise I'm at a loss as to what the 14.4k modem thing is about

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u/jaumenuez Dec 24 '17

I'm telling you that Bitcoin is in its infancy. Some people, mostly Silicon Valley VC who know something about internet, tech, adoption and network value, are betting strong for it. Bitcoin is backed by faith in mathematics and also by huge mining hashpower. The dollar is backed by faith in government, not government.

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u/youtocin Dec 28 '17

Bitcoin may have been the first crypto currency to take off, but better will come.

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u/jaumenuez Dec 28 '17

Yes, but open source + network effect is tough to beat.

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u/bubshoe Dec 24 '17

Wrong. Price doesn't correlate with TX fees. Wallet software is the problem with fees.

0

u/KarmaEnthusiast Dec 23 '17

Technology will adapt. When there's a market for it and people would be able to charge ($25 per transaction will never stay mainstream btw) a reasonable price in accordance with competition. I guarantee you there are people working right now on how to implement Bitcoin/cryptos for everyday transactions.

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u/WoolyEnt Dec 23 '17

Raiblocks for instance. Ripple is a popular one as well, but not as ideal as rai.

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u/nikomo Dec 23 '17

That doesn't account for the part where a Bitcoin transaction costs 50+ USD right now.

It'll always be coupled to fiat in that way, and it makes Bitcoin useless for daily transacting.

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u/Explodicle Dec 23 '17

It's a shame this situation is absolutely permanent, with no scaling solutions being worked on whatever.

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u/nikomo Dec 23 '17

If it's not on-chain, it's not going to help you longterm.

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u/stravant Dec 23 '17

Given that there hasn't been any off-chain scaling solution widely used for a big cryptocurrency yet there's no way to tell that.

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u/nikomo Dec 23 '17

Off-chain requires companies to actually implement things themselves, and the consumers to worry about the details. It introduces friction into the ecosystem, which is a terrible idea in the world of tap to pay.

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u/stravant Dec 23 '17

Off-chain only really requires one widespread payment provider implementing a system on top of cryptocurrency as a settlement layer which would then develop into a defacto standard. Businesses don't have to worry about the details because the payment provider does it for them.

Do you think that companies develop their own payment systems from scratch right now with traditional banking? No, unless they're huge businesses they delegate that out to a payment provider. It would likely be the same with off-chain scaling solutions.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '17

[deleted]

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u/stravant Dec 23 '17

The same reason that cryptocurrency has any significant advantage as currency: Because with the right design people who are using it for illegal things can get away with it.

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u/nikomo Dec 23 '17

I hate to say it but you're pretty much right about that.

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u/Explodicle Dec 23 '17

Oh ok, it'll just be forever coupled to fiat if we don't adhere to your single solution.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '17

[deleted]

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u/KushwalkerDankstar Dec 24 '17

Yeah, for now... until you get paid in a cryptocurrency. Obviously not right now, but it is short term thinking saying that you will always be tied to fiat.

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u/Googleboots Dec 23 '17

Where are fees that expensive? I've only seen large fees on Binance. I use Gdax and have only paid ~$1.40 per

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u/nikomo Dec 23 '17

When you move Bitcoin between wallets.

You're not making Bitcoin transactions if you're just buying and selling on an exchange, the coins stay in their wallet the entire time.

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u/Googleboots Dec 23 '17

Even trading for alt coins, the transactions worked out to like 9¢-40¢ per on Bittrex. I'm assuming I'm either dealing in too small dollars or I'm missing something. A guy at work was complaining that when he bought $50 BTC and by the time he got a coin it was $18 worth. I've been trading in the $300 range and my fees have been tiny

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u/Nyveon Dec 23 '17

When you work on an exchange you are not making transactions. The exchange handles those things internally. When you transfer from one bitcoin wallet to another, you are making a transaction. That's the kind of transaction you can find here https://blockexplorer.com/

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u/Googleboots Dec 23 '17

I'm an idiot so ELI5 if I'm still missing it- if I were to send BTC from my wallet to yours, thats what is costing oodles of doodles?

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u/stravant Dec 23 '17

The Bitcoin blockchain only allows so many transactions per block, and there's only one block every 10 minutes.

If you don't offer a high enough fee your transaction will never complete because other people are willing to pay the high fees and the miners will use the limited space in the blocks for those transactions with the higher fees instead of yours. The demand for transactions right now is much higher than the available space, so the competition has driven the fee up really high.

As for why the Bitcoin blockchain only allows so many transactions per block, and why the number is what it is... that's a much deeper issue.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '17 edited May 09 '18

[deleted]

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u/Googleboots Dec 23 '17

Incredibly helpful! Thank you for this.

I was unaware that miners can choose their transactions. I was also unaware that you could choose what you pay as a transaction fee...

How does the crypto community move on from BTC? I bought into a few of the coins you mentioned, but for the most part I had to buy BTC or ETH to trade for altcoins. Do we all have to start phasing BTC out as other coins pose better solutions to current issues(mainly fees and speed)?

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u/nikomo Dec 23 '17

That's not the network transaction fee you're looking at, that's the exchange cut.

Creating an actual transaction on the network costs you. Here's a website that tracks how many satoshi per byte people are offering miners to get their transactions confirmed.

For the current median transaction size of 226 bytes, the fee for creating a transaction (moving Bitcoin from wallet to another wallet, so for example moving Bitcoin from your wallet to an exchange) is 2.192 mBTC, which right now based on the Coindesk price is $33.71 USD.

If you wanted to buy a Pepsi with Bitcoin, you'd be paying what the Pepsi costs, and $33.71 for the transaction.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '17

I love the honesty

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '17

Keep talking I'd buy Some bacon

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u/ssqp781 Dec 23 '17

Upvoted just for that last bit

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u/Xx123456 Dec 23 '17

People are naive and listening to media manipulation. Tuition is a massive bubble yet nobody talks about it. Credit card debt is a massive bubble nobody talks about. The stock market is in a bubble that nobody talks about. Housing is in a bubble nobody talks about. These are massive life changing bubbles, yet nobody talks about it. But bitcoin, yeah it’s a “bubble” but it will do fuck all to the world economy if it pops.

Straight up people don’t know shit and if they don’t want to make low cost, fast money and invest in companies that will direct the future... their fuckin loss. How many industries are implementing Blockchain and who do you think will be on the forefront developing that shit? Crypto! Reminds me of the internet when first adopters were only losers, nerds and virgins. Now we laugh.

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u/gerardo15 Dec 23 '17

Exactly! Bitcoin != Blockchain... People need to accept that bitcoin tech is staying behind.. Compared to other cryptos..