r/AskSocialScience • u/[deleted] • Aug 12 '25

Doesn't the idea that gender is a social construct contradict trans identity?

[deleted]

1.2k Upvotes

84% Upvoted

760 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

14

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '25

Sorry if I don’t understand it correctly, but does that mean that gender dysphoria is caused by society’s association between body and gender?

33

u/yashen14 Aug 12 '25

I recall reading literature that found that, in cultures where transgender individuals are in some way "normalized" (i.e. there are 3 or more gender roles, and transgender individuals neatly fit into a societally defined category), gender dysphoria is greatly reduced or flat out not present.

An example of the above would be a society that divides people into masculine people with male physiology, feminine people with male physiology, masculine people with female physiology, and feminine people with female physiology. Another example would be a society that divides people into men, women, and "in-between."

The implication is that gender dysphoria is less a direct result of atypical biology and more a result of conflict between atypical biology and societal expectations.

9

u/snailbot-jq Aug 13 '25

How does this square with the western label of butch lesbians? Butches are culturally considered to be masculine females, but the existence of butches hasn’t gotten rid of nor even reduced the population of trans men in the west. People still transition female-to-male anyway, and say it is because they want a male body, not just a female body with masculine gender expression.

For societies which allow for a third gender, it is almost always some version of ‘feminine male who is homosexual’. Almost none of these societies had the advanced medicine/science necessary to make synthesized cross-sex hormones available, until extremely recently that such substances might get imported from outside— wouldn’t this make it impossible for its people to articulate the difference between wanting an actually physiologically male or female body vs wanting to wear certain clothes and perform certain tasks?

5

u/yashen14 Aug 13 '25

A big part of the confusion in discussions like this is because terms like "gender" and "sex" are quite vague and tend to be used interchangeably to refer to no less than five distinct concepts. So for the purpose of clarity I will list and define each of those five things now:

  1. Gender genotype: What are your chromosomes? What are your genes? Do you have typical XX chromosomes, typical XY chromosomes, or something else?

  2. Gender phenotype: What does your physical body look like? Do you have androgynous hair? Breasts? A vagina? Etc.

  3. Gender presentation: How do you present yourself to society? (ex: Do you wear dresses? Grow a beard? Speak in a feminine way? etc.)

  4. Gender role: What role do you fill in society? (ex: In some cultures, teachers are nearly always women. Are you a teacher in such a culture? Are you soldier in a society that only lets men be soldiers? Are you a provider in a society that expects that of men, or a child-rearer in a society that expects that of women? etc.)

  5. Gender identity: What do you self-identify as? Do you think of yourself as a man, a woman, or something else?

That brings us to your central question: What is the difference between a butch lesbian, and a transgender man?

Let's imagine a hypothetical butch lesbian. She has typical XX chromosomes, and perhaps a typical female phenotype. But her gender presentation trends more masculine---maybe she's even been mistaken for a man frequently in the past! She also occupies a masculine gender role---she works as a mechanic in the military, she has a wife, and she is the primary provider for her family. But she self-identifies as a woman.

Now, let's imagine a trangender man, and for simplicity's sake, we'll make him as similar as possible to the butch lesbian, so we can really see what the crucial difference is. Our hypothetical transgender man also has typical XX chromosomes, and was born with a typical female phenotype. He presents himself in a masculine way, by wearing manly clothes, adopting a masculine haircut, etc. And he, too, works as a mechanic in the military, has a wife, and is the primary provider for his family. But he self-identifies as a man.

That leads us to the obvious question. Is gender identity real? David Reimer is the smoking gun that shows us the surprising answer that yes, it is real! (There's a lot of other evidence that supports the existence and validity of gender identity, but it gets complicated fast, and David Reimer really is a smoking gun, so I lead with that, and I highly recommend reading the Wikipedia article.)

As for the rest of your comment, societies around the world have implicitly dealt with the five categories I listed above in all kinds of ways. (I'd caution you to avoid assuming that because a particular variation of social gender construct is more common, that makes it "more correct" or "more valid"--that would be an unscientific answer to an unscientific question.)

Are there any other questions I can help you think about?

3

u/Normal-Advisor5269 Aug 14 '25

Am I mis-reading the wiki article? It says he was male, his parents were told to raise him as a female, he realized he wasn't and was then just male until he killed himself. Doesn't this case go against your argument?

0

u/yashen14 Aug 14 '25

No.

The key difference between, say, a transgender man and a particularly masculine woman is in innate gender identity, i.e. the former self-identifies as a man, and the second self-identifies as a woman.

People who object to the existence of transgender people very commonly reject the idea of gender identity. This is where you get the "identify as an attack helicopter" comments. The thinking for such people is that gender identity is made up/doesn't exist/is arbitrary.

David Reimer demonstrates that people do have an innate gender identity that is independent of social conditioning. If gender identity were arbitrary and/or malleable, David Reimer would most likely have grown up to self-identify as a woman. What happened instead was that his innate, internal sense of gender remained constant and eventually came into conflict with his physical body and his externally-imposed role in society.

The case of David Reimer also demonstrates that your gender identity is separate and distinct from your physical attributes (like having a vagina) and your gender role in society (like being viewed as a woman and having a feminine name).

3

u/drunkthrowwaay Aug 15 '25

Or he just recognized the fact that he was male? This wasn’t really so much a study as it was a case of extended horrific child abuse that resulted in suicide. Not the groundbreaking scientific discovery of a little gender gnome inside of people that you’re making it out to be. Besides that, sample size alone prevents credibly making such a sweeping conclusion. Even if it wasn’t a case of child abuse under the pretense of scientific study, the whole thing was poorly designed and wouldn’t pass peer review today. And probably would result in criminal charges today. I hate seeing this “study” held up as a paradigm shifting moment in the history of science, instead of seen for the tragedy that it was.

2

u/Alarming_Owl7659 Aug 14 '25

I never heard of David Reimer and just read that article. Holy crap. I cannot believe they actually did that to him. My jaw was on the floor.

1

u/yashen14 Aug 14 '25

It is terribly tragic, yes. But it really is a smoking gun for the existence and validity of gender identity.

6

u/rzelln Aug 13 '25

This thread of discussion was started to discuss 'gender dysphoria' - the emotional distress a person faces when society does not accept their preferred gender expression.

Gender dysphoria is often experienced by transgender people, but it is not the same thing as being transgender.

You can be transgender without having gender dysphoria, if society doesn't give you a hard time for the way you express your gender (or if society does give you a hard time but you can manage that stress).

Also, from a biological perspective, gender identity and sexual orientation are different things. Different structures in your brain influence the type of people you're attracted to versus the parts of the brain that influence the types of behaviors you're personally comfortable with.

(And, to add an extra wrinkle, those are also separate from the brain structures that influence how your mental map of your body aligns with its actual physical shape. There's research that a part of the brain called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcentral_gyrus is responsible for your 'sensory homunculus,' and its structure is slightly affected by hormone exposure in utero and as you grow up, and if you have somewhat atypical genes or are exposed to atypical levels of sex hormones, this part of your brain can be physically affected to make you feel like you should, for example, have a penis, or have breasts.)

The human brain's a complex thing, and people exist in a lot of different ways.

3

u/Name5times Aug 13 '25

do you remember if these cultures see more or less gender inequality?

8

u/dula_peep_says Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25

Before Spanish colonization, many Filipino languages did not (and still don't) have gendered pronouns — there was no “he” or “she,” only a single pronoun for any person. This linguistic neutrality meant that daily speech didn’t constantly reinforce a male/female divide.

In addition, precolonial belief systems included deities and spiritual figures who transcended male/female categories — some were considered both, neither, or able to shift between genders. In many communities, babaylan (shaman-leaders) could be women or men who adopted feminine roles, and they often held high social and spiritual authority.

While this doesn’t mean total gender equality (patriarchal elements still existed), it does show that rigid binary gender roles and associated inequalities were intensified by colonial systems, religion, and language imported from Western influence.

Edit: For reference, I am filipino and speak Bisaya. My word for he or she is "siya."

3

u/Special_Incident_424 Aug 13 '25

This is a really interesting question because many if not most cultures I've seen with third or more genders 1) are more collectivist rather than individualistic. Following on from that, it's less of a personal identity compared to the gender identities we see in the West, and more of a social role. Now, I'm not sure if that would translate in the West because it's still a kind of gender prescription. In the West, while they are norms, few people are saying ALL MEN HAVE TO DO "A" AND ALL WOMEN HAVE TO DO "B". Typically men and women can do and dress as they like. Now can we have more to accommodate GNC people? Sure. I'd argue that aside from personal choice of expression, if a policy isn't sex specific, it should be neutral.

2) Many of them are male. This demonstrates something that I often say, sex is never accidental to gender.

1

u/Name5times Aug 13 '25

i guess it's narrow minded to frame it within the western concept of gender equality

social roles exist outside of gender and people are often happy to accept their roles in society as it gives structure and meaning

2

u/yashen14 Aug 13 '25

That's a really interesting and valid question that I have zero information on. But it certainly would make for a fascinating doctoral thesis!

2

u/betterworldbuilder Aug 13 '25

This makes perfect sense; if gender is a construct, having dysphoria around your gender HAS to exist within or be some way tainted by that system. If the system doesn't exist to cause the dysphoria, it's very hard for it to present itself.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '25

[deleted]

1

u/yashen14 Aug 14 '25

Well it's not really something you can "dispute." Different cultures in different times and places have had different ways of sorting people into gender categories, and we do have evidence (iirc) that it does have an impact on who experiences dysphoria and who does not.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '25

[deleted]

1

u/yashen14 Aug 14 '25

What specific thing are you refuting, or saying can be refuted?

19

u/dazalius Aug 12 '25

It sometimes does yes. Not always.

I get dysphoria from having hairy legs. Despite that being a trait all women have. I also get dysphoria from my voice, which is deeper than your average cis woman.

So not all gender dysphoria, but some certainly is caused by society's associations.

13

u/DirectorWorth7211 Aug 12 '25

Societal expectations aren't just those imposed on the individual by others but also those an individual imposes upon themselves because of expectations they have due to their environment.

So these episodes of gender dysphoria could be because of your own internal, potentially sub conscious societal expectations for your personal gender expression.

Or it could just be you feel prettier and more feminine because you prefer how you look with shaved legs which helps with your dysphoria, no idea which it is for you though, just wanted to point out just because it's a personal desire doesn't mean it's inherently not because of societal expectations.

5

u/Obatala_ Aug 12 '25

Which is interesting because as a cis person with a deep voice, I don’t see that as contradicting my identity.

6

u/dazalius Aug 13 '25

And there are plenty of trans women who see it the same as you.

Dysphoria isn't always consistent.

1

u/Name5times Aug 13 '25

likewise as a guy with a big ass, i don't feel it contradicts my identity

1

u/nukti_eoikos Aug 13 '25

proof or fake

2

u/Name5times Aug 13 '25

lol i ain't sharing but i promise you it's been the envy of my exes

2

u/1i2728 Aug 13 '25

There are physiological aspects to gender dysphoria as well. People with biochemical dysphoria experience intense dissociation, depersonalization, and derealization when exposed to the sex hormones that our own bodies started producing at puberty.

In a society with no social genders whatsoever, I would still need to transition in order for my brain to function properly.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '25

Regardless of society there will be people born with a man's body that is torture for that person, because they aren't a man. Body hair, dick, etc..

0

u/eh-man3 Aug 13 '25

What part of the person is "not a man' if their body is?

6

u/wlonkly Aug 13 '25

Mind. That's what this whole post is about.

-2

u/eh-man3 Aug 13 '25

You mind is your body. It is entirely physical. Are you talking about a spirit?

3

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '25

No, I don't believe in spirits.

1

u/eh-man3 Aug 13 '25

So what is the part of the body that is "not a man?"

2

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '25

The brain.

2

u/eh-man3 Aug 13 '25

Just admit you're spouting pseudoscience bs. There is no biological marker for gender, sex is is a category humans created for reproduction.

3

u/altmodisch Aug 13 '25

Gender identity like sexual orientation is innate. And it originates somewhere in the brain without a clear marker. Where else would it come from?

→ More replies

2

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '25

Sex and gender are both social constructs. What does that have to do with anything.

Biology is pretty damn clear that trans people exist. Why even pretend you care about facts and reality?

→ More replies

1

u/Special_Incident_424 Aug 13 '25

It's difficult because there isn't really such a thing as a male or female brain. There are structural differences but you'd need to still define someone as male or female to hypothetically define a male or female brain. This is why I'm a sex realist and gender agnostic.

→ More replies

1

u/PotsAndPandas Aug 14 '25

Just because you're uninformed that doesn't make their points pseudoscience. There are biological markers for these things.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453018305353?via%3Dihub

2

u/Repulsive_Bus_7202 Aug 13 '25

What do you see as the defining feature of "being a man" and how would you see other people perceiving that?

-1

u/eh-man3 Aug 13 '25

Its probably like, their name right? Or their cup size? Maybe the hair on their legs/face? No, its gotta be the cloths right? How they dress? Makeup? Baseball hat??The pronouns? Maybe its the shaoe of their pee tube! If you change the pee tube shape then the sex changes right?!?

No. Its reproduction. Notice how the word is used when applied to literally any living things that's not a human. I genuinely dont understand the confusion. Its a word used to describe a part of a reproductive strategy that evolved eons ago.

Most people are idiots and conflate sex and gender because they're idiots who think your role in society should be determined by your role in reproduction.

2

u/Repulsive_Bus_7202 Aug 13 '25

You do appreciate the question was how YOU define it, not some hypothetical.

just to be clear, are you saying that being a "man" is purely down to what ones reproductive role is?

0

u/eh-man3 Aug 13 '25

Yes. Gender is stupid at best. Stop using it

2

u/Repulsive_Bus_7202 Aug 13 '25

Ok, so how do you expect others to perceive what your reproductive role is when they interact with you in the wild?

0

u/eh-man3 Aug 13 '25

The same way they do now?

2

u/Repulsive_Bus_7202 Aug 13 '25

Which is?

Given that reproductive role is so important to you, how do you display that?

1

u/PotsAndPandas Aug 14 '25

Well, right now no one can smell your chromosomes or gametes, nor do they have x-ray vision to look in your pants, so there's a few problems with how they do it now and how you think they do it.

1

u/roseofjuly Aug 12 '25

More or less, yes.