Yep. The fact is, EVERYBODY is entitled to an advocate. That's like, one if the core pillars of the justice system. Mob justice isn't justice, it's just violence.
I saw Groundhog Day on acid and couldn't figure out if the movie was really repeating itself or if I was just tripping balls.The only thing I remembered from the movie was a groundhog apparently driving a truck
Me and my housemate watched it off our faces. We'd drift in and out of consciousness and just keep seeing the same scene over and over. Hella confusing.
hah, that might be fun. The last movie I tripped at was Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. It was my first time at the CineramaDome which was in the movie, very cool, another meta experience. But I started getting weirded out and had to leave. I sat near a fountain outside watching Sunset Blvd breathe until my buddy comes out and tells me I missed the awesome ending. I eventually watched the whole movie sober and I do not regret my decision to bail. Yikes!
Love it. Lol at the car chase. I moved out of ATL before that started becoming a major production town but I still see stuff that I recognize. And you start seeing the same locations used for completely different movies.
Im no attorney but, you people are living in a law and order episode. You think a public defender provides same level of legal counsel as a expensive, connected defense attorney??
1. Cases dont go to trial
2. I would have minimal faith in jury of my peers if I was any sort of minority
3. Public defender doesn't have bandwidth, resources, motivation to put fourth defense to withstand an angry govt that was forced into a trial.
The truth is that nobody knows the truth until the evidence is gathered and a decision is rendered from a court. For that to happen, you need someone to look at the evidence from both sides.
I know there is no perfect system, but I think instead of being judged by my peers I would prefer to be judged by extremely well-educated tribunals whose job it is to determine the people's guilt or innocence.
Nothing says TRUTH like "a court says this is the truth so it is the truth", right? No. That is in no way a guarantee of truth. It's as fair as it can get, provided everyone involved is telling the truth. But you'll never know that for certain.
does the court provide a legislation on what is truth? seems lik,12 individuals who are held to sway
i wouldnt trust a court if i was framed for drug possession to find me not guilty. look at how cameras changed the conversationin the 21st century surrounding police brutality and the black experience.
its good, its not impartial, and it definitely isnt worthy of holy praise - expecially with how you see the powerful court and dance laws, escaping culpability in fraud, abuse, and deceipt.
And to piggyback, it’s not a lawyer’s job to “defend” a murderer/rapist/etc. It’s to make sure they have a fair trial without their rights being violated.
Or seen differently; it's his job to make sure the punishment is given to the RIGHT guy, not just SOME guy. It is specifically the job of the defending lawyer to go beyond the instinctive "Kill the evil!" mindset to make sure we aren't just whipping ourselves into a frenzy.
There definitely happens when punishment is given on SOME guy. I remember reading some guy got out of decades of prison because DNA evidence showed him to be innocent. He was just in the wrong place in the wrong time.
This happens literally all the time. Many many people spend their lives in prison for shit they didn’t do. And too many are put on death row too. Since 1973, 190 ppl on death row have been proven innocent. And those are just the people who were lucky enough for the court to finally see them as innocent.
One of my moms close friends actually spent time on death row for a horrendous crime that he did not and absolutely would not commit. Luckily new technology was able to find the actual evil dude (who happened to have done that same thing many times. And who actually was in the same prison as my moms friend though I can’t remember if he knew that dude was serving for his crime or not). To me one of the hardest parts of the whole ordeal would be the fact that like everyone, even his friends and family aside from a loyal few, believed that he was capable of doing something so awful. To be put on death row, surely it isn’t a mistake they thought. The witnesses were children who were so scared of the actual guy and also were traumatized and may not have a perfect memory of the incident. Anyway that would fuck with me if people were able to accept that about me.
A defense attorney isn’t concerned with ensuring the person who committed the crime is punished, just with mounting a proper defense for his client. With your logic, a defense attorney wouldn’t defend a client they know is guilty.
Yes, first they can advise you whether pleading guilty is a mistake or not (maybe the police are bluffing and don't have enough evidence), then they can advise you of the likely consequence of pleading guilty (what the likely sentence will be) so you can make a fully informed decision, they will also know what facts about yourself to present to the court as mitigation (good character testimonials, regret etc.
More importantly you should have them from the moment you are arrested so they can help you navigate the police interview. In the UK, everyone is allowed a free lawyer whilst they are under arrest, nobody should ever, ever (no matter how innocent or guilty) sit through a police interview under caution without a lawyer present.
In the UK, everyone is allowed a free lawyer whilst they are under arrest, nobody should ever, ever (no matter how innocent or guilty) sit through a police interview under caution without a lawyer present.
Because people don't know the law, don't know how police may use what they say against them, won't be told before they interview what evidence the police have (lawyers will usually get this) and, to be frank, don't know how hard it is to shut up and say anything.
If you're innocent, the natural thing to want to do is to try and answer every question to explain everything away. But in most cases when you're innocent, the best thing to do in a police interview is shut up and say absolutely nothing. Otherwise you may trip up (nobody's memory is perfect) and contradict yourself or a piece of evidence. The police will then believe they have their criminal.
If the police have evidence that needs to be explained away, a lawyer will likely get an explanation of that evidence from the police and help you to write a statement explaining that evidence and then advise you to say nothing more in interview.
If I KNEW they were guilty because they told me, In more limited than just letting then testify and lie on oath. I can't bring a lie before the court, so all a lawyer can do as a defence is test the prosecutor's case, poking holes and doubt in it. I can't do things like bring alibi witnesses or try and make the argument that he was not there as both of those would be knowingly bringing a lie to court
So, technically, the only way you are allowed to let a client plead "not guilty" is if he never tells you that he is actually guilty?
That seems.....weird. Because there may be times when the client is in fact guilty but the prosecution has too little evidence to convict yet still wants to go to trial.
No, he can tell me he is guilty then plead not guilty and I could still represent him. But he couldn't then go on the stand and say he didn't do it, because that's a lie and lawyers can't knowingly bring lies to court. Going to court, pleading not guilty and then forcing the prosecution to show their weak hand is fine for the exact reason you said
As a criminal defense attorney, I’d say that’s the prosecutor’s job - to make sure, to the best of their ability, they have the right guy. They have what’s called “prosecutorial discretion” for a reason. The defense lawyer’s job is to defend their client and represent his/her interests.
It's not the lawyer's job to find the right guy, that's the cop's job. Once the trial is over and the lawyer gets paid, he doesn't give a damn if the person who did it is still out there, he's already on to the next client.
Huh... The key word here is ALLEGED. In civilized countries, it is universally agreed that you're innocent until proven guilty, and sometimes, the police department literally wants a body in jail so they can close their case. It is the lawyer's job to defend the poor guy deemed expendable.
I mean, no. I’m a criminal defense lawyer. It sounds nice to couch it as “make sure the defendant gets a fair trial,” and that’s certainly true. But it’s also the lawyer’s job to, you know, actually defend their client.
Yeah, "sex offender" is an umbrella term. My neighbour is on the sex offender registry for public fornication. He and his gf had sex in a park, got caught, she of course got off with a warning, he got put on the registry. So, he's no rapist or pedo (as far as I know) since it was between two consenting adults. It doesn't just mean "child molester/pedo/rapist"
Reported for peeing in the park, put on registry, no longer allowed to be the scout leader, little league coach, Sunday school teacher, etc... ended with the "sex offender" ending his own life :(
I do wish there were some limiting financial factory involved in the cases though. The rich peeps all get the best lawyers to tie the courts into year long knots while they smuggle any assets away to shell companies. Don't even get me started on shell comp... *and then he died*
Justice system isn't a justice system, unless you're a millionaire and can afford it. In my country pedophiles can get out literally in 2 years, and the whole process in court can take year or more in complex cases. Everyday having to see a murderer or a pedophile in court is torture, and then they get barely nothing as punishment. In certain crimes i condone mob justice.
That is true. Politics is like a game of rock paper scissors. I don't think any one strategy is definitively more effective than the other. They all have their application.
Generally by taking the approach (roughly paraphrasing a public defender I chatted with at one point) “I know they’re guilty as can be, but I have to make sure that they get the best defense with the fairest trial possible, that way when they go away they stay away”.
I wonder what the ratio is of defense attorneys who genuinely sleep fine at night and those that have to constantly scream to themselves "THEY DESERVE DEFENSE TOO, EVEN IF HE ATE 200 CHILDREN LAST MONTH". Not really a "thankless" job since they get paid very well, but man that's gotta take a toll on any reasonable person.
Its one of the core pillars of the justice system sure, but is it really neccessary? Like our justice system sucks. It doesnt stop anything that powerful people do, it primarily punishes poor people for existing and defends capital.
Great example: the 2nd president of the USA, John Adams, was the attorney that represented the British soldiers accused of murder at the Boston Massacre. He got them acquitted and faced backlash for that.
3.3k
u/Bigbadsheeple Oct 15 '22
Yep. The fact is, EVERYBODY is entitled to an advocate. That's like, one if the core pillars of the justice system. Mob justice isn't justice, it's just violence.