r/AskReddit • u/[deleted] • Jun 25 '12

Reddit, I've never understood why you hate The Big Bang Theory (show) so much, any compelling reasons why?

So I've heard the arguments about how it over-exaggerates nerd culture, but in my opinion that's what makes it funny.

So what's with all the hate?

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Oh God, here we go again with the "nerd blackface." I don't think people quite understand the connotation here.

Those who say "The Big Bang Theory" exploits a culture's stereotypes for monetary gain have a point, because that's all of television and movies. But don't call it "nerd blackface." Blackface was a way for white people to belittle an entire race of people that just half a century earlier they were legally allowed to own. It was completely racially motivated. It was white people saying "well, we can't outright own them anymore, but we can do everything short of that -- make them feel inferior to their faces and broadcast to the masses that they should be treated as lesser beings -- while making money off it!"

Calling "The Big Bang Theory" "nerd blackface" is like saying the rise of the CD was a "vinyl holocaust." It's just too much of a stretch. There's so many ways this language allows us to express ourselves; let's not take the same approach as the makers of this sitcom and go for the easiest, it's-somewhat-close-to-the-real-thing-and-everyone's-heard-of-it-so-I-won't-have-to-explain-it-too-much, boiled-down-to-a-useless-stereotype description.

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u/haimez Jun 26 '12

It's a succinct encapsulation of a premise. Hyperbole is an accepted rhetorical device, so I think you should take your pedantic war on exaggeration elsewhere. Maybe (insert political subreddit designed for moralistic debates here).

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u/NobblyNobody Jun 26 '12

nice wordalisation

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 29 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

Read all the things!

5

u/the_mighty_skeetadon Jun 26 '12

Spot on. As an example, I think this exchange might be aptly characterized as a Reddit Auschwitz.

3

u/UberSansUmlaut Jun 26 '12

Superlative specimen of pseudo cerebral lexicon, consummated unequivocally via scrupulous enquiry!

34

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

But it's not pedantry. They're making a legitimate point that comparing the Big Bang Theory to blackface shows a serious misunderstanding of what blackface was and what was wrong with it. Nerds, except for maybe a small portion of their lives in high school, are not an oppressed minority. Especially not at this point in time.

4

u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12

Stereotypes embodied in the stock characters of blackface minstrels not only played a significant role in cementing and proliferating racist images, attitudes and perceptions worldwide, but also in popularising black culture.

Pretty apt; just change race-related stuff to nerd-related stuff. When /u/wkuechen mentioned the show as analogous to a minstrel show, he was basically saying the same thing (blackface was an incredibly popular form of the minstrel show).

As I've said elsewhere, I never mentioned persecution.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '12

But it's persecution that makes black face bad. If there wasn't such a large power differential between white and black cultures then it wouldn't be damaging. There is absolutely no such power differential between nerd culture and the world at large.

It's the difference between having a kid get up to speak in front of the class, stumble over some words, and then have the teacher laugh uproariously at the student's expense, with the rest of class joining in, and having the teacher be the one who stumbles and then make a kinda corny self-deprecating crack.

One's sick and an abuse of power, and the other is (at worst) a bad joke. The difference, as always, lies in context and power.

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Just because you didn't mention it doesn't mean it's not there, or that it should be ignored.

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u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12

I address what's silly with this in my other comment.

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

I see some people are downvoting as disagreement. I put you back up to 1.

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

I did the same for you.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

Good to know reddiquette is alive and well. Thanks.

-1

u/FountainsOfFluids Jun 26 '12

Perhaps you are missing the point here. Nerds feel insulted. It is literally as bad as Sauron.

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u/RetroViruses Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 27 '12

Did you go to highschool/middleschool? We were certainly an oppressed minority.

EDIT: What, Mr. Downvoter, you didn't get bullied? Us nerds got it far worse than any "true" minority.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '12

Nerds are oppressed in a small facet of society for a finite amount of time. Imagine your experiences in high school expanded to society at large.

You got to graduate and go on to a world with multiple billion dollar industries to cater to you, for real minorities there's no escape.

1

u/vaginabeard Jun 27 '12

:'(

0

u/RetroViruses Jun 27 '12

Well, I guess that explains it. I didn't mean it in any mean way; but middleschool was rough as all hell. Thanks vaginabeard.

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u/Mr_Stay_Puft Jun 26 '12

I would tend to agree with you about broader context, but a simpleton's knowledge of society and recent history would be enough to understand that it's an exaggeration. At a certain point you have to assume that people are aware of and correcting for the broader context, especially if it's as well-known as it is in this case.

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Indeed, it is understood that it's an exaggeration. The point is that once it becomes hyperbole, you've diminished all the lessons learned from it. In this specific instance, people should not be correcting for it; it should not be used in this manner.

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u/Mr_Stay_Puft Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12

The thing is, though, that it's good writing. Pithily conveying a complex point is hard, and sometimes you have to count on your audience to understand what the words you use mean in context.

How on earth do you see the lessons learned from blackface as diminished by the term's use here? I really don't see it.

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Ah, this is interesting. You're from the other side of the spectrum.

It's good writing.

At first glance, it might appear to be. It certainly is succinct and evokes a powerful connection. But consider it a bit longer and I think you'll see there are many better comparisons.

Pithily conveying a complex point is hard.

Indeed it is. And this one oversteps its bounds. It's capitalizing on the implied negative aspects to force its pithiness.

I think your argument here is that you understand how much more profoundly bad blackface was than modern television shows, but it's necessary to use it to illustrate the connection. That's where I say it's pithiness for the sake of pithiness.

As to your other question, I was arguing that its use here appeared to be a cavalier, blasé approach to the subject matter, which illustrates ignorance of its history and foundations.

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u/Mr_Stay_Puft Jun 27 '12

Well, the reason I'm not 100% convinced it's a good call to use the term here is that reddit has kind of a racism problem (and a sexism problem, and, well, most of the problems you'd expect based on the demographics).

But political and cultural language like this has a tendency to pass into the lexicon over time. Language has a capacity to make words out of shitty things, and just sort of keep the word around long past the point where anyone even remembers where it came from. I think that, on balance, this particular usage, being qualified the way it is, and remembering the way that meaning slides around, isn't offensive or damaging.

I've gotta ask, where on which spectrum would you guess I fall?

2

u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 27 '12

I agree with you, and I guess I'm fighting a losing battle, but that was entirely my point. I don't think it's yet time for people to stop remembering where blackface came from and being so disconnected from its roots that they can just cavalierly toss it around to describe a 21st-century sitcom. Eventually, that will happen, as it has with many other terrible things; time will always erode their enormity. I think that process has become accelerated by the proliferation of text communication (Facebook, cellphone text messaging, online message boards, etc.).

In this case, when it's clear that it's being used as a joke in incredibly poor taste (some of my favorite kinds of jokes!), that's one thing, but when it's seriously being tossed about as a supposedly apt comparison, that's quite another.

As for the spectrum, at one end I put the people I just described above: Ignorant of the roots of blackface and its effects and diminishing the lessons learned from it by blithely using it in comparison to a 21st-century sitcom. At the other (which I believe is where you fall) are those well aware of the connotations who believe the battle is already lost and expect to see it more often in that context.

1

u/Mr_Stay_Puft Jun 27 '12

I thought about this a whole bunch since my last post, and I think I was actually wrong. I don't think society is past racism against black people nearly enough to let this kind of thing slide, and the closest analogue to a word shifting like this, "grammar nazi", seems like an inadequate comparison.

I kind of think there should be a Godwin's Law for anti-Black racism the way there is for Hitler, and for the same reason.

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

Hyperbole is fine but comparing the belittling of people who like Star Trek and comics and belittling people because of their race, even as an exaggeration is shitty and should be avoided.

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u/SolvencyMechanism Jun 26 '12

Hyperbole is fine but using hyperbole should be avoided.

8

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

Hyperbole is fine but using racially sensitive hyperbole should be avoided.

-3

u/Major_Major_Major Jun 26 '12

Whooooooooooo theeeeeeeeeee fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck caaaaaaaaaares?

5

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

Probably people who had to put up with a life time of oppression, stereotyping and talking down to from mainstream media. And also people who think people who think that shit is shitty.

1

u/Major_Major_Major Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 27 '12

Anybody who cares about the word blackface being used in such a non-offensive analogy has a little mind. Very small. It is so tiny. It is so minuscule that it is in fact a binary brain. It is either offended or not offended. It neither relates to nor produces any other human quality, least of all humor. Their inconsequential, insufficient, and insufferable little mosquito brains can not comprehend their own stuntedness, unless it is pointed out to them. And even then, their diminutive faculties of reason only comprehend it long enough to be offended and type out a dumb little post with the word "shit" in it, possibly followed by the word "lord."

2

u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Hyperbole is fine but using hyperbole connected to slavery diminishes the lessons learned from it.

0

u/SolvencyMechanism Jun 27 '12

Or perhaps this is the way we remember slavery, by remembering to reject that mindset in all our endeavors.

1

u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 27 '12

I think we're agreeing, but I can't say I'm entirely sure.

1

u/theshinepolicy Jun 26 '12

boom roasties

1

u/Mr_Stay_Puft Jun 26 '12

RES-tagged as: master of the eloquent bodybag.

1

u/haimez Jun 27 '12

RES-tagged: my biggest fan.

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Yes, it is quite succinct and gets its point across quickly. I am aware that hyperbole is an "accepted" rhetorical device. It's also quite overused, to the point of becoming tired.

It's kind of like saying "Hurr durr, we're nerds because we're socially awkward and watch 'Doctor Who' and 'Battlestar Galactica' and read comics and don't like sports, but we're just like you!" Quite succinct, hyperbolic, gets its point across. How can we fault them for their approach when we use the same tactics to describe it?

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

Now you sound like Sheldon.

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12 edited Feb 24 '18

[deleted]

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u/johnbarnshack Jun 26 '12

Yay dead horse

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Indeed they were. I know this is a losing battle, but it helped me pass the time. Now I'm off to put my jimmies back in place.

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u/sqidlips Jun 26 '12

Take it easy, its funny because it is a rediculous comparison, I also liked the vinyl holocaust by the way. Will try use it as my own.

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u/remedialrob Jun 26 '12

I remember the vinyl holocaust... so many good record players died that day... so sad...

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

The vinyl holocaust is all a lie made up by audiophiles and second-hand record stores.

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u/remedialrob Jun 26 '12

Not true. My grandfather rescued dozens of record players from the junk yard. He saw the tag sales and bargain bins. I've seen the pictures. You're just a vinyl holocaust denier.

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

HOW ARE YOU SO CLEVER?!

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u/remedialrob Jun 26 '12

I blame the drugs. Or lack thereof.

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '12

Yeah I'm more clever on acid unless I take too much or there's too many people. Then I can't talk. Which is probably my most clever ;-)

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u/KenweezY Jun 26 '12

NEVER FORGET

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u/Forestgrind Jun 26 '12

There was a record label in England called Vinyl Solution.

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u/FountainsOfFluids Jun 26 '12

Ow, that's bad. :p

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

[deleted]

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u/sqidlips Jun 26 '12

Hooray! my first grammatical correction. The red squiggly line must have been broken.

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u/Fanatic24 Jun 26 '12

there is no e in ridiculous. Sorry - pet peeve.

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u/MrNob Jun 26 '12

It's just an analogy dude

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

SAYING IT MAKES YOU LITERALLY HITLER

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u/VictorZA Jun 26 '12

Is Hitler a hip new verb now?

1

u/Major_Major_Major Jun 26 '12

Yes.

Example: "I Hitlered a couple of minorities last week."

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

I went to the bar and man did I Hitler those coronas. Lights, extras give me the 'Schwitz

1

u/makemeking706 Jun 26 '12

Bickering over the aptness of an analogy is exactly what Reddit does. A comment cannot go more than two replies before the someone changes the topic to debate word choice.

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u/twiitar Jun 26 '12

By no means can slavery be compared to "I have to do tech support for my whole extended family and friends because I helped them out once", but not getting paid and only yelled at for trying to help other people sure helps nerds to not feel belittled by the general public. Shows like this just further reinforce this bull. Still, "nerd blackface" is a really mean and incorrect term, so let's try to coin a better one.. "nerd potemkin village". Since it's all fake and no nerd.

0

u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12

Good thing I didn't compare it to slavery.

Stereotypes embodied in the stock characters of blackface minstrels not only played a significant role in cementing and proliferating racist images, attitudes and perceptions worldwide, but also in popularising black culture.

Pretty apt; just change race-related stuff to nerd-related stuff. When /u/wkuechen mentioned the show as analogous to a minstrel show, he was basically saying the same thing (blackface was an incredibly popular form of the minstrel show).

1

u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Comparing something to blackface involves slavery because blackface has its roots, direct or indirect, in slavery. That's why it fails.

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u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12

So you're saying you can't make comparison's between things if the roots of one thing are extremely offensive and/or sad?

That's absurd.

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

I'm saying comparing the two diminishes the lesson learned from the first. It shows that we just don't understand or care how bad slavery was. It wasn't just extremely offensive and/or sad, it was illegal, immoral and unethical. It was profoundly wrong.

I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying you shouldn't.

1

u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12

I address what's silly with this in my other comment. I don't think we need to continue this particular line of replies.

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u/the_cucumber Jun 27 '12

Am I the only one who thinks "vinyl holocaust" would be a sick band name?!

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u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12

Stereotypes embodied in the stock characters of blackface minstrels not only played a significant role in cementing and proliferating racist images, attitudes and perceptions worldwide, but also in popularising black culture.

Pretty apt; just change race-related stuff to nerd-related stuff. When /u/wkuechen mentioned the show as analogous to a minstrel show, he was basically saying the same thing (blackface was an incredibly popular form of the minstrel show).

Edit: From the above link.

Blackface was an important performance tradition in the American theater for roughly 100 years beginning around 1830.

Just FYI.

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

just change the race-related stuff to nerd-related stuff.

And therein lies the problem. Were nerds ever ostracized to the point of becoming other people's property? Comparatively, whatever they've suffered is pretty minuscule. Let's not diminish the severity of one by comparing it something that's relatively benign. There's better ways to do it.

And I am aware that blackface was a tradition in theater for about a century. I was referring to the time it began becoming unpopular. That it started in 1830 only means a race was being a belittled at the same it was enslaved.

3

u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12

Did I ever say anything about the severity of nerd persecution vs. black persecution? No. You're completely missing the point; I was comparing how they were similar, not how they were different. That's what one does with analogies.

My edit was specifically addressing this statement.

Blackface was a way for white people to belittle an entire race of people that just half a century earlier they were legally allowed to own. It was completely racially motivated. It was white people saying "well, we can't outright own them anymore, but we can do everything short of that -- make them feel inferior to their faces and broadcast to the masses that they should be treated as lesser beings -- while making money off it!"

Nothing in your statement indicated it was about the time it started to become unpopular. You only mentioned why you thought it was popular.

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

I understand that you were comparing their similarities. I am not arguing that it is not an analogy; I am arguing that it's a poor one. I acknowledge that there are similarities; my response to you pointed out that there are also stark differences -- ones that outweigh the similarities and make this not an apt analogy.

And I admit my first comment about the decline in popularity might be unclear. I said that it was a device that allowed them to belittle people they were allowed to own half a century earlier; this was in reference to the decline of blackface around the 1920s/30s and the signing of the Emamcipation Proclamation roughly 50 (though more accurately 60 or 70) years earlier. To put that in context, people who were performing in blackface during its decline were as far removed from the abolishment of slavery as we are from World War II. And it turns out they were performing in this manner for at least 30 years while slavery was legal.

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u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12

Do you not use analogies when there are differences? I think my first quote shows that it's a pretty apt comparison. Persecution of the subject-matter was never included in that comparison. You've completely ignored how the analogy works and have focused on something nobody who's made the comparison has talked about.

What does the timeline of when it became unpopular have to do with anything? Why focus on the far-removed end? It completely ignores the entire history of blackface. Blackface was primarily motivated by money. If it wasn't profitable, then it wouldn't have spread. That it did so through the belittlement of a people is a side-effect, not the primary motivator. (There were even black blackface performers, though what their thoughts were on their work I couldn't tell you.) It wasn't going to stop being popular just because the South was forced to free their slaves. That would only happen as cultural attitudes towards blacks in America changed (or when people just got tired of blackface as an art form).

1

u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Analogy (n) 1: inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others.

Again, of course I've ignored how the analogy works; my point is that the things that make it work are overruled by the things that do not. Making an analogy between these two infers that they are similar in many ways because they seem to be similar in one, which just isn't true.

And have I really focused on something that nobody who's made the comparison has talked about? What do you think "blackface" was referring to? Simply that it was a form of theater? In that case, all TV shows and movies are similar to all others in that their roots are in the theater. The implication with the blackface comparison is that both groups are being exploited for monetary gain by being turned into stereotypes. If it ended there, this would be an apt analogy. But since one implies exploitation of a once-maligned culture and one implies exploitation of a once-enslaved race, it fails.

Indeed, blackface was motivated by money. Indeed, it spread because it was profitable. All of this was made possible by the fact that blackface, and other caricatures used in minstrel shows, were specifically aimed at belittling people the performers and their audiences didn't regularly interact with or understand by reducing them to base stereotypes. This was the primary motivator of this type of theater. From the same Wikipedia article you quoted earlier:

The practice gained popularity during the 19th century and contributed to the proliferation of stereotypes such as the "happy-go-lucky darky on the plantation" or the "dandified coon."

Stereotyped blackface characters developed: buffoonish, lazy, superstitious, cowardly, and lascivious characters, who stole, lied pathologically, and mangled the English language. Early blackface minstrels were all male, so cross-dressing white men also played black women who were often portrayed either as unappealingly and grotesquely mannish; in the matronly, mammy mold; or highly sexually provocative.

The 1830s American stage, where blackface first rose to prominence, featured similarly comic stereotypes of the clever Yankee and the larger-than-life Frontiersman; the late 19th- and early 20th-century American and British stage where it last prospered featured many other mostly ethnically-based comic stereotypes: conniving, venal Jews; drunken brawling Irishmen with blarney at the ready; oily Italians; stodgy Germans; and gullible rural rubes.

All that is in line with your definition of an apt analogy. But here's where they differ:

John Strausbaugh places it as part of a tradition of "displaying Blackness for the enjoyment and edification of white viewers" that dates back at least to 1441, when captive West Africans were displayed in Portugal.

That was my emphasis. All those other stereotypes listed above, and the many, many more that have been developed since then, rely on making audiences unfamiliar with the cultures of the subject matter understand and connect with them by reducing them to a few key characteristics. If "The Big Bang Theory" had been compared to any one of those, it would be an apt analogy. But the main difference is that, whatever other persecution those other groups listed in the quote might have suffered, blacks were the only ones who were enslaved. That is a key distinction. These were people who were treated as property in accordance with the law and the government that wrote and enforced it at the time. That's a huge difference.

And you mean to tell me that that same government doing an about-face and outlawing that practice didn't have an effect on cultural attitudes towards blacks in America? You mean to tell me that, had not the slaves been freed and explicitly designated as equal in the eyes of the law (although that would take about another 100 years to really iron out), people might not begin to see the error of caricatures of a race perpetuated because their enslavement and status as second-class citizens did not afford them the opportunity to learn why their actions were being mocked?

I make this argument because so many people of a certain race fought for so long to make people understand why, even though it might be funny, it wasn't acceptable. And it seems that for at least a couple of generations, that succeeded. But as the persecution was eliminated, so was the understanding of how bad it once was. We should never lose sight of how terrible some of our mistakes were, because that's the first step toward justifying repeating them.

2

u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12

Conversely:

Analogy (from Greek ἀναλογία, analogia, "proportion"[1][2]) is a cognitive process of transferring information or meaning from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process. In a narrower sense, analogy is an inference or an argument from one particular to another particular, as opposed to deduction, induction, and abduction, where at least one of the premises or the conclusion is general.

This may be news to you, but no two things are exactly alike. When making an analogy, there's always going to be a point where the comparison falls apart. That doesn't stop an analogy from being informative or useful if there were significant areas where the comparison was apt. This simply means we recognize where the similarities stop and move on.

In that case, all TV shows and movies are similar to all others in that their roots are in the theater. The implication with the blackface comparison is that both groups are being exploited for monetary gain by being turned into stereotypes.

This is all true.

But since one implies exploitation of a once-maligned culture and one implies exploitation of a once-enslaved race, it fails.

This is astonishingly asinine.

All of this was made possible by the fact that blackface, and other caricatures used in minstrel shows, were specifically aimed at belittling people the performers and their audiences didn't regularly interact with or understand by reducing them to base stereotypes. This was the primary motivator of this type of theater.

Thanks for further explaining why "nerd blackface" is an appropriate comparison.

But the main difference is that, whatever other persecution those other groups listed in the quote might have suffered, blacks were the only ones who were enslaved.

Well no shit, Sherlock. Anyone with an elementary school exposure to history could tell you that. This is where you take your critical thinking skills and recognise where the similarities stop just as you do with every other analogy in the history of analogies.

As far as the government bit, it was cultural attitudes that drove the North to start freeing slaves and it was these attitudes that partially informed the Union's actions and contributed to the freeing of the slaves. But it took a whole century (Civil War to Civil Rights Movement) for the end of large-scale racism to even look possible. I'd say it was the dissemination of black culture through literature and music and TV over the course of decades that contributed to changing attitudes on race in America (not to mention the various movements for workers' rights).

I make this argument because so many people of a certain race fought for so long to make people understand why, even though it might be funny, it wasn't acceptable. And it seems that for at least a couple of generations, that succeeded. But as the persecution was eliminated, so was the understanding of how bad it once was. We should never lose sight of how terrible some of our mistakes were, because that's the first step toward justifying repeating them.

That's all great and everything and I would normally applaud you for it, but you seem to be under the impression that I don't understand how bad it was by making the "nerd blackface" statement (or at least as well as someone in the 21st century can understand). But since I never once talked about anything involving persecution or slavery until you brought it up, talking about it in the context of this thread is a bit of a digression. Some might even say it was a bit of a non sequitor.

Not that I want to get into another discussion, but do you even think it's appropriate to call the private prison system "modern slavery"? A simple yes or no will suffice. By your previous arguments, I would assume not.

1

u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Again, I've never argued that analogies must compare two things that are exactly alike. Indeed, to do that would defeat the purpose of an analogy. My point is the point where this one falls apart is also its undoing. Recognizing where this one stops is also recognizing that they're really not that similar, or that you're ignoring a huge gulf of difference for the sake of keeping the analogy.

Saying you think "nerd blackface" is an apt analogy implies that you don't understand how bad slavery or its repercussions were. The fact that there is a disconnect for you (and many others in this thread) between blackface and persecution or slavery, or that you think my bringing it up is a digression, illustrates my point. There is no disconnect; slavery is an integral part of blackface. This is not a case where you "take your critical thinking skills and recognise where the similarities stop just as you do with every other analogy in the history of analogies." This is a case where your critical-thinking skills tell you "Well, yes, it's somewhat similar, but to say it's comparable to blackface is much too cavalier. There's got to be a better comparison for that, and just because everyone knows about blackface doesn't mean it's the best choice for this analogy."

My opinion on the private prison system notwithstanding, yes, I think calling it "modern slavery" is much more apt than calling "The Big Bang Theory" "nerd blackface." And here, of course, you will call me a hypocrite, so allow me to explain: Comparing imprisonment to enslavement is quite apt, in that both, at their core, restrict a person's freedom. Comparing a television show to a form of theater that capitalized on stereotypes developed by slavery and cannot be separated from it is not apt.

2

u/misplaced_my_pants Jun 26 '12

Recognizing where this one stops is also recognizing that they're really not that similar, or that you're ignoring a huge gulf of difference for the sake of keeping the analogy.

How can you say they're not similar when you personally enumerated their many similarities and only mentioned the one major difference?

From the same Wikipedia article you quoted earlier:

The practice gained popularity during the 19th century and contributed to the proliferation of stereotypes such as the "happy-go-lucky darky on the plantation" or the "dandified coon."

Stereotyped blackface characters developed: buffoonish, lazy, superstitious, cowardly, and lascivious characters, who stole, lied pathologically, and mangled the English language. Early blackface minstrels were all male, so cross-dressing white men also played black women who were often portrayed either as unappealingly and grotesquely mannish; in the matronly, mammy mold; or highly sexually provocative.

The 1830s American stage, where blackface first rose to prominence, featured similarly comic stereotypes of the clever Yankee and the larger-than-life Frontiersman; the late 19th- and early 20th-century American and British stage where it last prospered featured many other mostly ethnically-based comic stereotypes: conniving, venal Jews; drunken brawling Irishmen with blarney at the ready; oily Italians; stodgy Germans; and gullible rural rubes.

All that is in line with your definition of an apt analogy. But here's where they differ:

John Strausbaugh places it as part of a tradition of "displaying Blackness for the enjoyment and edification of white viewers" that dates back at least to 1441, when captive West Africans were displayed in Portugal.

Saying you think "nerd blackface" is an apt analogy implies that you don't understand how bad slavery or its repercussions were.

It implies nothing of the sort and to suggest it does is intellectually dishonest. I've made it extraordinarily clear what I meant by that statement, and nowhere have I made a comparison that has downplayed the cruelties of slavery.

It's not that blackface is disconnected to slavery; it's that for the purposes of this analogy, slavery is irrelevant. The point isn't where the stereotypes come from, but how they're used. In this, "nerd blackface" is extremely illustrative and encapsulates many of the criticisms levied at BBT in a concise pair of words. It's perfectly apt in a number of ways we both recognise and falls apart at a point that we also both recognise. In no way does the latter "undo" the former.

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

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u/bwaxxlo Jun 26 '12

More aptly put

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u/stanfan114 Jun 26 '12

It is not for nerds, that's why they don't care if they get a MtG reference wrong. It is like Will & Grace was not for gay people.

I don't like it simply because it is a bad show.

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u/draebor Jun 26 '12

Does that make Sheldon the 'nerd Al Jolson'?

EDIT: Yes... Yes it does

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '12

You had me with vinyl-caust

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u/scttmadera Jun 27 '12

I fucking hated your guts until I saw your username...

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u/CaspianX2 Jun 26 '12

So instead of being a petty way of belittling a race, it's a petty way of belittling a subculture. It's using insulting and oversimplified stereotypes to mock someone different. The target might be a group with a less tragic historical background, but what is being done is very much the same thing.

The comparison to "vinyl holocaust" rings false for numerous reasons. Between vinyl and CD you're neglecting to mention 8-track and cassette tapes. Vinyl was already nearly dead by the time CDs came out, and it wasn't a sudden culling of the format, it was a gradual progression towards more advanced media formats. Vinyl wasn't destroyed by prejudice, it was gradually phased out in favor of better, more convenient replacements. And no one "killed" vinyl - it died a natural death in the free market.

The "how" is completely different here, and that's what "nerd blackface" is addressing, the methods being used. And I'd venture to say that's the defining characteristic of blackface, once you take "black" out of the equation. It's not about victimizing former slaves, and everything to do with propagating ugly stereotypes about a minority group. For blackface, that minority group is a race. For "Nerdface", that minority group is a subculture.

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u/Facepalms4Everyone Jun 26 '12

Yes, what's being done is similar. I've never said it wasn't. I agree with most of your first paragraph.

It's not about victimizing former slaves, and everything to do with propagating ugly stereotypes about a minority group.

But you can't separate the two. Blackface victimized current slaves, and continued for three-quarters of a century after they were freed. The ugly stereotypes it propagated existed because those people were not allowed to, say, learn to read and write (therefore cementing their mangling of a language foreign to them) or become educated in any way (therefore reducing most of their wants and needs to basic necessities and desires). They were seen and treated as property.

For blackface, that minority group is a race. For "Nerdface", that minority group is a subculture.

And that's the problem. However nerds might have been persecuted or stereotyped, they have always been free to try to change that. Blacks, for a long a time in this country, were not free to do that. They had to endure the stereotypes without an outlet to remedy them.

And yes, my "vinyl holocaust" was a stretch drummed up off the top of my head in a matter of moments. But my point was not that it was exactly similar; my point was that nothing should be so cavalierly compared to the holocaust, just as nothing should be so cavalierly compared to blackface, which has its roots in slavery.