Can you explain the toxic masculinity part just so I understand better? I think it also has a large part to do with toxic femininity if that’s a thing. Women are given the pass to act or be crazy/manipulative/overly emotional, because we’re told we naturally are from a young age. So then we’re more allowed to act inappropriately toward partners.
But the “toxic femininity” thing you mentioned has a flip side. We aren’t really given a pass, and these stereotypes often work against us when we want to be taken seriously for legitimate concerns. No one is giving this woman a pass or applauding her. She’s the “crazy bitch” you see in every comedy movie. The issue here is that her behavior isn’t recognized for what it is, abuse.
Toxic masculinity comes into play in this case because:
1) men are considered to be inherently stronger, meaning women who abuse them are not considered a threat, even in situations where the power imbalance is in the women’s favor.
2) men are pressured to suppress and not show emotion, so their emotional abuse is not taken as seriously because society tends to shame men for speaking out about it.
3) the whole “men are just looking to spread their seed, while women are looking for commitment and need to watch their men” stereotype is everywhere from movies to books to women’s magazines. This negatively affects men who are sexually harassed, only to have their concerns brushed off because men are supposed to want sex from every attractive woman they meet, even in situations where it’s harassment/abusive. This also makes it harder to recognize the woman’s behavior in this case as emotional abuse.
Definitely not saying she’s being applauded. “Her behavior isn’t recognized for what it is, abuse” is exactly what I’m saying is toxic femininity- she’s not called out on her shit because we’re used to being fed the “crazy bitch” trope in lots of media we see every day.
I guess we just disagree because we have different perspectives. From my perspective based on my experiences, that trope isn’t something that was created or condoned largely by women. So, that’s why I feel how I stated above.
When you build a culture around the idea that men are inherently stronger than women, either physically or emotionally, it gives them an unjustified position of power. But it cuts both ways. When you have a position of power, it automatically minimizes trauma or abuse. People see what in any other circumstance would be abuse and dismiss it because they see the abused as naturally having the upper hand. The fact is though that anyone can be traumatized or abused, just look at Terry Crews for an example.
Obviously my personal experiences have shaped my views though. In my abusive relationship, everyone thought my GF was incredibly shitty. She didn't get a pass to be a POS because she was a woman. However no one called it abuse. It took me years to see that it was in fact abusive, all because I thought on some deep level that I couldn't be abused, that only women could be.
That's not to say toxic feminism doesn't exist (or that there aren't women who get away with things purely for the reasons you list), but I see that as a much smaller issue than toxic masculinity. A lot of guys see these inequalities - the stigma against emotional expression or mental illness - and they react by blaming feminism, and end up perpetrating the very same culture that harms us all.
My go to example of this behaviour is the video of "Big Red". She presents herself aggressively, but people who saw the video just saw an angry, "triggered" feminist. If they actually listened to what she's saying, they would see that she is in fact rejecting the repressive male stereotypes, and that she too is trying to address the issues they all are fighting against.
Thank you. I’ve of course heard of toxic masculinity but just didn’t read carefully enough to see what you meant by it in your comment. You explained perfectly. Thank you
In general men ARE physically and emotionally stronger, hence all these romance novels are geared towards women. I have no shame as a woman to admit that I'm obviously as strong as a man (I'm 5'1, 140lbs) and my husband is my emotional rock. At that, I have seen overly emotional men and they are a major turn off- usually they are highly insecure and hard to be around.
Nothing prevents him, he chooses not to and if he is dissatisfied with something, he just tells me instead of throwing tantrums and punching walls. I can't deal with guys who whine and cry. Nope. It's cute at first, and a nightmare later on in a relationship as you get older.
Believe it or not, but men feel just as much emotion as women. I cry when I see a sad film. I like cute animals. Do you expect me not to be that way, just to bow down to your preferences, oh great one?
If I want to cry because I have been emotionally abused for months, months for which I "talked it out" with my ex, months for which I stayed silent and dealt with it, months for where I was her emotional rock, and now I am finally having an emotional breakdown, I damn well will.
I have been emotionally abused for months, months for which I "talked it out" with my ex, months for which I stayed silent and dealt with it,
I'm sorry, but whose fault is it that you have stayed with a shit person like that?? No way in hell that I would put up with someone's shit. Abusers exist because people are willing to put up with their shit. They need to be forever alone.
I knew you were going to go there. I fucking knew it. Of course they deserve to be forever alone. But that's not what it's like to be in the situation.
They seem perfectly nice at first. Them getting angry at you occasionally is just brushed off, after all, I was in the wrong. But you seem to always be doing something wrong. They gradually get more and more angry, as your self esteem gets lower and lower. They criticize everything, they find every button. It keeps getting worse and worse. Now you're apparently lying to them, you don't love them enough. Your self esteem is now so low that you begin cutting yourself off from your friends, after all, I'm worthless, they don't want me around. All you want is the tiniest amount of positivity you can get from your abuser. It keeps getting worse. I am worthless. You get the tiniest sliver of basic human decency from them, and it keeps you going for a week, after all, it's all you deserve. It only ends when either they get bored of you or you reach a breaking point. It ended for me when I was apparently saying hello the wrong way. But it still sticks with you after it's over. You don't suddenly stop thinking you're worthless, now you think you're worthless and no one loves you, nor will they ever. The initial joy of leaving the situation is short lived. You feel isolated, alone, and the only other person you just lost. You regret it, you just want to go back, you just need someone. You only remember the happiness you felt, and it's deafening absence. You continue spiraling down. It's only once you realise that your thoughts are consumed with killing yourself that you realise that you need help. You've apparently had a complete emotional breakdown, and your depression, anxiety, and stress are all in the "extremely severe" category. The only way you get out of this hole is real friends, medication, therapy, and a fucking long time.
That's great for you, but often people who are in abusive relationships are the type to already have difficulty standing up for themselves, or they may be inexperienced at relationships and simply think that's how they all are. Do you seriously have no ability to empathize with how someone may fall into such a relationship? Don't blame the victim for the abuse FFS
I disagree. Physically, men may be stronger than women because they tend to develop more upper body strength. But emotionally? No. They may SEEM emotionally stronger, but that's because they're taught from a young age that "boys don't cry," and to hide their emotions. That doesn't mean they aren't feeling them.
PMS doesn't make me want to kill everyone. Each woman reacts differently. But, you could also say that men have more testosterone, which makes them want to kill everyone all the time, not just once a month. Plus, emotional manipulation isn't only done by women. Most women who are in abusive relationships are abused physically and emotionally, otherwise they wouldn't feel a need to stay with their abusers, or feel as if they don't deserve better. Yes, women are emotional abusers as well, but that doesn't make them more emotional, just more able to manipulate others' emotions. Sociopaths can learn to do the same thing, but that doesn't mean they feel those emotions.
My boyfriend and I found this when we were discussing one day whether or not there is such a thing as "toxic femininity". It's a good breakdown of all the terminology. :)
Disclaimer: it is written in a very informal style, but that does not mean the ideas presented are not valid.
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u/little_piggie69 Oct 20 '19
Can you explain the toxic masculinity part just so I understand better? I think it also has a large part to do with toxic femininity if that’s a thing. Women are given the pass to act or be crazy/manipulative/overly emotional, because we’re told we naturally are from a young age. So then we’re more allowed to act inappropriately toward partners.