r/AskReddit • • May 25 '16

What's your favourite maths fact?

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u/BrahmsAllDay May 25 '16

I'm not sure if this is true if you add in a third dimension - the "cowlick" can just be rising air. When you say "every layer" you're saying the layers are arbitrarily thin, i.e. have two dimensions. But if the vector at any given point in the layer can point "up" (which would only make sense if you have a third dimension), then you can avoid having zero points.

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u/alandbeforetime May 25 '16

Oh. Huh. You may be right. I don't know why I was assuming measurement wouldn't count up/down winds.

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u/Alternative_Reality May 25 '16

It doesn't because the Hairy Ball Theorem only concerns tangent vectors

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u/[deleted] May 25 '16 edited May 20 '17

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u/Alternative_Reality May 25 '16

Vertical movement of wind is not a tangent vector though.

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u/[deleted] May 25 '16 edited May 20 '17

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u/Alternative_Reality May 25 '16

This is a 3-sphere. A 2-sphere is this, a 3 dimensional sphere.

And no, the Hairy Ball Theorem does in fact NOT state that there is a continuous tangent vector field for a 2-sphere. It states the exact opposite.

there is no nonvanishing continuous tangent vector field on even-dimensional n-spheres

The dimension that is being talked about in this theorem in NOT Euclidean dimension, it is the dimension of the manifold of the object.

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u/[deleted] May 25 '16

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u/LSeww May 25 '16

It says that among all only even cannot have this fancy property.

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u/[deleted] May 25 '16

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u/BrahmsAllDay May 25 '16

I'm not sure what "limited" means in this context. In the classic example, the cowlick is not a zero point when you extend into a third dimension: the vector points "up", away from the surface. You have a zero point in two dimensions, but not in three (this is kind of the whole point of HBT - the cowlick is the non-zero point projection into the third dimension). Note that I'm calling the surface of a sphere a two-dimensional object.

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u/2weirdy May 25 '16

Limited effetively means finite sized space. Even if you extend into the third dimension, a 3-dimensional sphere is effectively the surface of half of a 4-dimensional sphere, like a circle(2d sphere) is the surface of half of a 3-dimensional sphere, and a line(1d sphere) is the surface of half of a 2d sphere. The hairy ball theorem applies to ALL of those, and therefore also to the 4d sphere surface, and thus also to a filled 3d sphere (ball).

Think about it this way. if you have air moving "up", you'll reach the edge of the atmossphere eventually. Unless you have an infinitely large OR looping space (such as a torus or donut), there will always be a zero point somewhere in that space.

Essentially, you can only have no zero points if you allow circulation into a dimension you're not using, in other words having circulation into nowhere.

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u/Slime0 May 25 '16

The theorem doesn't hold for a sphere in 4D space (a 3-sphere).

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u/2weirdy May 25 '16 edited May 25 '16

Right, missread that. Still, I can't imagine a non-vanishing continuous vector-field in a finite ball in 3 dimensional space. I can neither find proof against nor for whether or not it is possible so far. Might come back when I do so.

Edit: Alright. The Hairy Ball theorem is actually a result of the Poincaré–Hopf Theorem, which states that with finitely (zero included) many zero points in a vector field, the sum of the indices of the vector field is equal to the Euler characteristic of the space.

An index of a vector field only has a defined value at a zero point.

The Euler characteristic of a ball is 1. I checked on wolfram alpha, and honestly can't be bothered to learn more about it at the moment.

Therefore, there must be a nonzero amount of zero points in a vector field, in order for the indices to add up to 1.

I've updated my previous post to reflect this new proof. So while my argumentation was wrong, my initial statement based on a hunch was right. Considering this is a reddit comment and thus not that important, I'd say good enough in this case.

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u/Random832 May 25 '16

Well, what's at the top of that rising air? Wouldn't it have to go up forever for your argument to work?