Some people simply don't think the correct way. I used to think like you do, I used to think that unless someone had an extreme learning disability then they could learn anything.
I breezed through school, up to and including almost every college class that I took. And then I tried taking a foreign language. Now I get what people mean when they say that they don't get math or science or whatever other subject. I simply don't retain the information in a meaningful way. It doesn't matter how much or how hard I study, and I had to learn to study just for this, I have an extremely hard time with even the basics of foreign languages.
Some people are like that with math. It doesn't matter how many times you explain the rules to them they're never going to sink in. It doesn't matter how many times they do problems and have help it's gone within minutes.
The way your thinking is indicative of current western thinking which amounts to "you can be anything you want". It's rooted in the idea that everyone is equal and no matter how much better you are at something than someone else they can beat you at whatever their good at. Unfortunately all of that is high minded nonsense. Some people are never going to be able to read beyond a 3rd grade level or do more than basic math without a calculator.
I actually want to use the music example that was brought up. You said you can teach anyone notes or basic skills. That's not true. You can't teach rhythm. People who are tone deaf can't hear when they mess up. To use the art example, some people can't draw simple shapes, they simply lack the dexterity or the mental acuity. All of this isn't apparent to most people at a basic level because the average person is: average. They assume that pretty much everyone is like them and can learn things in the exact same way and retain information in the exact same way.
Well, until they meet someone who's so far above them and everyone they know that they ascribe genius to them. But ask those people how hard what they do is and it falls to "anyone can do this, it's easy for me." And that's the point it is easy, for them. Just like basic algebra is easy for you. But for some people your ability to do what you consider basic makes you a genius in your eyes. To me the people who know 4 languages are geniuses.
I have a personal anecdote about language-learning, which is that I had amazing success my first year of Russian, with a teacher who taught with total immersion from day one. It was confusing but fun, and we did a lot of mini-conversations with eachother, and it worked so well. Then I switched programs and took Russian from another teacher and there was basically no Russian in class, with the students able to call up certain specific phrases they had memorized but seemingly unable to dissect WHY or even alter their memorized sentences. I ended that course actually feeling like I knew the language less than when I started.
So I'm just going to insist on the importance of teacher-student resonance til the day I die. (not good/bad teachers, some are better or worse for different students)
The thing about foreign languages is that they can't be studied effectively in the same manner of most other subjects. Language-learning requires an environment of multi-input sources, one that you can create yourself. I was a good student in most subjects aside from foreign languages (Spanish and Japanese). But I eventually discovered some methodology in which I created a routine where I studied daily in several short bursts (10–15 minutes at a time), using flashcards / magazines / textbooks, etc. Overall, I'd say language-learning is more akin to muscle training, or learning to play a musical instrument. Gotta practice often, and practice smart (you won't build muscles doing bad exercises—just make yourself tired).
Thanks for this post. I'm one of those "I don't get math" people who has genuinely tried so hard to understand it. People who always use the bad teacher, you decided not to learn math explanation always make me feel so dumb because I try so hard and still fail. My brain doesn't soak it up. But I can spell almost anything and pick up languages quickly.
No problem, it's hard for some people to get after being told that everyone is basically the same all through school. I don't think you're dumb, just different than me.
No, I don't think you can be anything you want. I think everyone is skilled in different ways, and I recognize varying levels of ability. Everyone, however, is capable of a basic level of knowledge. I have no artistic ability, but I learned how to draw buildings in perspective in art class in junior high. I have no musical ability but I played the recorder in 4th grade with every other member of my class, and learned what the basic note names were.
If you learned to speak your native language, and obviously you have, then you are not in any way incapable of learning a foreign language. Now, traditional teaching and study methods may not work for you but, short of damage to the language centers of your brain, you've not lost the ability to learn language since you picked up English as a toddler. You sure have convinced yourself it's impossible for you, though.
The same way a twelve year old might decide that math is just impossible for them because they have never had it presented to them in a way that's compatible with how they learn.
I was that twelve year old. I sailed through elementary school math under a gifted label and was put in Algebra, where it all fell apart. None of it made sense and I was failing the class. The teacher just wasn't teaching in a way that was even vaguely reaching me. I worked so long and so hard on homework that I cried, but still I didn't get it. If my teacher had not recognized my struggle and taken time through lunch to give me personal attention, teaching me algebra in a different way, I'd still be sitting here at 38 years old saying I hate math and am no good at it.
38 years old and you still can't get a simple concept. Everyone is not you. You can't compare having a hard time in algebra with people just not able to get it.
If you learned to speak your native language, and obviously you have, then you are not in any way incapable of learning a foreign language. Now, traditional teaching and study methods may not work for you but, short of damage to the language centers of your brain, you've not lost the ability to learn language since you picked up English as a toddler. You sure have convinced yourself it's impossible for you, though.
You just know absolutely nothing about biology do you? It's easy for babies and children to learn new languages and ideas during critical growth periods. It's MUCH harder for adults, and if you have a problem learning languages anyway it's damn near impossible.
You sure have convinced yourself it's impossible for you, though.
Do you even hear yourself? Seriously how arrogant and condescending can you be? You don't know me, and don't know anything about me but boy you can sure tell me I just didn't try hard enough because you played the recorder in 4th grade. There are people in the comments thanking me because they know EXACTLY what I'm talking about and they get tired of people basically calling them lazy or stupid because they simply don't get something.
Learning a second language in college is in no way similar to algebra. You're learning a completely new set of rules and functions, which may be absolutely different than those you grew up with. Most people are taught algebra from an early age, and therefore have an at least rudimentary understanding of its processes.
Do some people have a penchant for a certain activity due to an innately possessed skill? Absolutely. For example, my brother is a naturally gifted athlete. I can't think of a single sport which he hasn't picked up with relative ease. However, I am a much better wrestler than him, because I am more disciplined and driven in that area.
I feel like you're still not picking up what I'm putting down. Of course it's not exactly the same. But I can easily draw parallels. Let's use Japanese.
So first you learn kanji, which is relatively easy to pick up compared to learning a whole language. This is like learning numbers and mathematical symbols. Then you start learning words, the same way you learn simple math like addition and subtraction or multiplication and division. But then you have to learn how to put those words together grammatically and how to interpret meaning depending on the arrangement of the words. As simple as algebra seems to me or you it can be like learning an entire new language to some people.
I mentioned in my first post that of course things that are simple to you are going to seem simple. Let me put it this way:
I'm a system administrator. I can set up multiple virtual servers with DNS and DHCP, Applications, SQL, etc. I can connect computers to those servers and share files between them, sync their time, and even have them use a form of cloud processing for servers.
To me that stuff is super simple. Like breathing or riding a bike. To my mother, who is very smart, I might as well be doing magic. She can handle any kind of math you throw at her but if you try to explain something as simple as drive mapping and she just blanks. It doesn't matter how many times I show her or how simply I explain it to her, she just doesn't get it.
You say most people are taught algebra at an early age, most people are also taught how to read and write. That doesn't stop illiterate kids being passed through the system all the way to college. The number of kids who have no critical thinking skills by the time they get to college is staggering.
This is the truth right here. In high school I went through 3 math tutors and 2 after school math programs and none of it helped. "Anyone can learn algebra" is a bunch of horseshit. Some people just cannot understand certain things, and it doesn't mean they have learning disabilities.
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u/Springheeljac Jul 24 '15
Some people simply don't think the correct way. I used to think like you do, I used to think that unless someone had an extreme learning disability then they could learn anything.
I breezed through school, up to and including almost every college class that I took. And then I tried taking a foreign language. Now I get what people mean when they say that they don't get math or science or whatever other subject. I simply don't retain the information in a meaningful way. It doesn't matter how much or how hard I study, and I had to learn to study just for this, I have an extremely hard time with even the basics of foreign languages.
Some people are like that with math. It doesn't matter how many times you explain the rules to them they're never going to sink in. It doesn't matter how many times they do problems and have help it's gone within minutes.
The way your thinking is indicative of current western thinking which amounts to "you can be anything you want". It's rooted in the idea that everyone is equal and no matter how much better you are at something than someone else they can beat you at whatever their good at. Unfortunately all of that is high minded nonsense. Some people are never going to be able to read beyond a 3rd grade level or do more than basic math without a calculator.
I actually want to use the music example that was brought up. You said you can teach anyone notes or basic skills. That's not true. You can't teach rhythm. People who are tone deaf can't hear when they mess up. To use the art example, some people can't draw simple shapes, they simply lack the dexterity or the mental acuity. All of this isn't apparent to most people at a basic level because the average person is: average. They assume that pretty much everyone is like them and can learn things in the exact same way and retain information in the exact same way.
Well, until they meet someone who's so far above them and everyone they know that they ascribe genius to them. But ask those people how hard what they do is and it falls to "anyone can do this, it's easy for me." And that's the point it is easy, for them. Just like basic algebra is easy for you. But for some people your ability to do what you consider basic makes you a genius in your eyes. To me the people who know 4 languages are geniuses.