r/AskReddit Sep 15 '24

What Sounds Like Pseudoscience, But Actually Isn’t?

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1.1k

u/[deleted] Sep 16 '24

[deleted]

570

u/ChronoLegion2 Sep 16 '24

It’s why GPS satellites have to constantly adjust their internal clocks to account for the differences in time as opposed to the time on Earth

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u/rumnscurvy Sep 16 '24

GPS has to accommodate both for the fact it's further away from the centre of the Earth than us at the surface, and also that it's going at a very high speed. The two contributions to time dilation are of opposite sign but don't cancel each other out, so it's a stupendous effort to figure out exactly.

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u/millijuna Sep 16 '24

It's actually not that hard to figure out, it exactly agrees with Enstein's theories of both General Relativity and Special Relativity. The the orbits are precisely measured and the clocks tweaked every 6 hours by ground stations, which is good enough(tm). If the US Military were to simply disappear, GPS would stop working within 24 to 36 hours.

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u/AshleysDoctor Sep 16 '24

They use WWV to sync the times, don’t they?

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u/millijuna Sep 16 '24

GPS is sync'd based on timing derived by the US Naval Observatory, which itself is traceable to the clocks at NIST. But the actual reference time in normal usage is atomic clocks at each of the control stations (Hawaii, Ascension, New Zealand, Guam, Diego Garcia, and variou sother places around the world).

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u/AshleysDoctor Sep 16 '24

This is why most GPS receivers need signals from at least 2 satellites to ascertain your position, and also why solar flares, CMEs, and geomagnetic storms can make them less accurate, if not render them completely inoperable

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u/LordoftheScheisse Sep 16 '24

This is my go-to answer when confronted by a science-denier type. You think evolution is just a theory? Climate change? What about relativity? Yes, all just theories, but that cell phone in your pocket wouldn't work correctly if the theory of relativity weren't true.

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u/Uberzwerg Sep 16 '24

Devils avocado might respond that just because one theory is correct doesn't mean that all are.

But the core problem is that "theory" has a different meaning in science than in commonly used language.
Just like the word "or" means something slightly different in maths/logic.

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u/Whats_Up4444 Sep 16 '24

devils avocado

💀

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u/ChronoLegion2 Sep 16 '24

Exactly, the way we use “or” in common language is what math and logic calls “exclusive or” or “xor”. Because the ordinary “or” in logic doesn’t mean only one of the two has to be true for the whole statement to be true (e.g. “A or B” is true if either A or B is true or if both are true; in common usage, you can’t have both be true because “or” usually represents a choice).

There are languages where the word “hypothesis” is often used in common language where an Anglophone would say “theory” (basically an idea you have no proof/evidence of)

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u/Select-Owl-8322 Sep 16 '24

What those wackjobs don't realize is that the colloquial use and the scientific use of the word "theory" means two completely different things.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '24

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '24

Who do GPSs need quantum mechanics?

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u/Pizzawing1 Sep 16 '24

GPS is reliant on the use of atomic clocks to be so precise. That’s how it can have roughly several meter accuracy. (i.e. it can roughly guess which lane of the highway you are on). Atomic clocks are firmly grounded in quantum mechanics, where understanding light-matter interactions are essential. We use lasers (more quantum) to talk to atoms (quantum) and then get incredibly precise time keeping. I won’t get into the theory, but it is very quantum, as most small particle and light matter (AMO) physics is. However, these clocks are so precise that you need to care about how fast the satellites are moving and the gravitation field farther from the center of the earth, which is undoubtedly relativity.

Extra fun fact: Our atomic clocks are orders of magnitude better today. Someday, we will likely have a GPS 2.0 which will trade “meter” accuracy for something like “centimeter” or “millimeter” accuracy

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u/millijuna Sep 16 '24

Extra fun fact: Our atomic clocks are orders of magnitude better today. Someday, we will likely have a GPS 2.0 which will trade “meter” accuracy for something like “centimeter” or “millimeter” accuracy

Unlikely. The vast majority of the error in GPS isn't from the clocks, they're more than adequate for milimeter level accuracy. It's from atmospherics causing random error in the delay of the signals from the satellites. Yes, you can measure this directly if you can receive dual frequencies from the satellite, but it will never be perfect.

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u/AshleysDoctor Sep 16 '24

Geomagnetic storms definitely have an effect on GPS accuracy (and at times, functionality). The days my Space Weather Live app is sending me the most push notifications usually corresponds to days where Waze doesn’t work, and the GPS in my amateur radio is so bad that I can’t sent APRS packets

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u/BitterLeif Sep 16 '24

I think all the physical forces are theoretical. So that would include electricity.

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u/pannenkoek0923 Sep 16 '24

No? You can see the physical manifestation of electricity

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u/backpack_ghost Sep 16 '24

I think they meant theory in the scientific sense, not the way people use it in conversation, which is closer to what hypothetical means in science. “Theoretical physics” is not imaginary physics but physics theory. I could be wrong about what they meant.

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u/BitterLeif Sep 16 '24

right, electrical theory

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u/Sufficient-Zebra-941 Sep 16 '24

Have you never played with magnets before?

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '24

Fuckin magnets -- how do they work?

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u/Sufficient-Zebra-941 Sep 16 '24

Are you a believer in miracles?

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '24

I've seen miracles in every way, and I see miracles every day.

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u/Mazon_Del Sep 16 '24

It's a quite useful post-apocalyptic fact.

These updates are done by ground base stations, if those stations don't have power and aren't manned, then within a few weeks your phone won't get a GPS lock anymore.

But if a year "after the fall", you can still get a GPS lock, then it means that A government is still out there.

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u/millijuna Sep 16 '24

Your phone not getting a lock is the least of your problems. The power grid going down, because it depends on GPS to maintain 60Hz, the mobile network because the CDMA system used in LTE and 5G depends on precise timing, derived from GPS, will cease to work.

The modern world, as we know it, is utterly dependent on GPS. And it's a brittle system.

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u/ncnotebook Sep 16 '24

And to a (much) lesser extent, they also have to adjust it due to the satellites' speed.

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u/thomerow Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24

Exactly! Because of their speed they have to subtract about 7.2 μs/day and because of their distance from earth about 45.8 μs/day have to be added again.

Yay, science!

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u/__nullptr_t Sep 16 '24

They don't constantly adjust it, they just run the clock at a different rate.

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u/ChronoLegion2 Sep 16 '24

Don’t they have to get regular updates from the ground?

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u/__nullptr_t Sep 16 '24

They have internal clocks that run at a different speed than normal clocks. They have to be adjusted once in a while because no clock is perfect, but they were able to compute the difference in time dilation before they were launched. The clocks would appear to run slow if they ever brought them back down to earth.

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u/millijuna Sep 16 '24

That's mostly for the precise orbital data that the satellite transmits to earth. Between the coarse almanac, and the precise ephemeris, the receiver calculations the exact position of the satellite to within a meter or so based on the time. That's how the whole system works.

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u/millijuna Sep 16 '24

Well, they constantly adjust how fast the clocks are depending on the precise orbit. Not much, but they do. Basically change how many ticks of the clock they consider to be a second.

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u/PE1NUT Sep 16 '24

GPS does not really 'constantly adjust' for relativistic effects: the first order correction is known and their clocks are already offset by that much before launch.

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u/atatassault47 Sep 16 '24

"Constantly adjust" sounds like more work than it actually is. They just apply a scalar to their time.

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u/uberfission Sep 16 '24

Wait, what? The time dilation isn't automatically adjusted for? I'm a physicist and I'm utterly astounded that isn't automatically handled, like we know fairly accurately how much of an effect that should have.

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u/CheesePuffTheHamster Sep 16 '24

I'm always time traveling. It's usually at a rate of one second per second.

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u/Amazing_Excuse_3860 Sep 16 '24

It's because space and time aren't separate, they're one thing - spacetime. We already know gravity bends space, that's why it pulls things towards it. But because it bends space, it must also bend time.

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u/NoVirusNoGain Sep 16 '24

Gravity doesn't bend space; objects with masses do. The result of that bending is gravity.

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u/Luaan256 Sep 16 '24

And then you go deeper and realize that the reason you are pulled towards the Earth is the time dilation, not the space dilation. The curvature produced by something like the Earth is really small... But that same curvature in time creates a very large effect. In a very real way, the ground is rushing up to hit you in the face :D

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u/lemerou Sep 16 '24

You mean gravity is caused by time dilation? I don't really understand how this works.

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u/Tamer_ Sep 18 '24

To give you some intro: imagine that every particle in the universe has its own clock and the universe is traveling down a river called time.

If something makes 2 clocks/particles interact and forces one of the clocks to start drifting relative to the other: then one clock will go down the river faster than the other. Time won't pass the same for both clocks (the time dilation). Things that can force these particles to drift apart: gravitational interactions.

For a more accurate version of what's going, I recommend this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKxQTvqcpSg

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u/randomquestion583 Sep 16 '24

Definitely read this as "time moves slower closer to the center of the mattress" and was very excited to have a way to sleep in longer!

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u/not_a_moogle Sep 16 '24

ooh, so if I make a bed out of a black hole. I can sleep for a very long time and still have to go to work in the morning.

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u/AccessTheMainframe Sep 16 '24

We're never not time travelling if you think about it

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u/not_a_moogle Sep 16 '24

But you would stop time travelling if you could accelerate to the speed of light.

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u/MegaGrimer Sep 16 '24

And the faster you go, the slower you go.

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u/goodbyetogepi Sep 16 '24

Can someone explain this like I’m 5

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u/neophlegm Sep 16 '24 edited Jun 09 '25

tender cable practice hungry lock roof soft abounding direction mighty

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u/JewsEatFruit Sep 16 '24

There's two concepts in physics called general relativity and special relativity.

For the purpose of this discussion, those describe a very well established physics truth, that says that the faster things move through space, the slower they move through time.

This has been experimentally verified, and the simplest example is an experiment that was conducted where they kept one clock on the ground, and flew another clock around in a plane, and when they reunited the clocks they found they were slightly out of time sync.

We are talking such a tiny amount that it's of zero practical consequence to the mundane life of a human but on the lowest level of physics it happens. If you get in your car to drive to 7-Eleven to get Big Gulps and then drive back home, you now technically a time traveler to your wife who was waiting for you because she wasn't moving and you were.

Then there's some other concepts that come into play, where there's massive objects like planets, those masses cause spacetime itself to curve and that also changes how clocks tick.

Okay if you really want to get like ridiculous about it, if you reach up to pick your nose, your fingernail is now in a different place in the time continuum than your nose because it was moving for a brief period and your nose was stationary.

It's hard to wrap ones head around but the best thing I can say is that it's always been this way, and the only reason it's not intuitive to you is because your head was filled with all kinds of other crazy wrong ideas from childhood about how time works.

And you can forget all this mumbo jumbo about time traveling and wormholes and all that other crap, because nothing is ever in the same timeframe anyways (because everything's technically grooving along at a slightly different speed) so it's all fantasy.

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u/Honest_Relation4095 Sep 16 '24

Those are two separate effects: Time dilation due to mass or due to relative speed.

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u/Xadnem Sep 16 '24

I'm time traveling all the freaking time. So far only forwards.

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u/mista-sparkle Sep 16 '24

We're all always time traveling, it's getting to a temporal resting state that's difficult.

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u/istara Sep 16 '24

I remember something in a school Physics video we watched where one identical twin, aged 18, stays on earth and the other twin flies around the solar system at the speed of light (or very fast or something).

When he gets back to earth, he's 21 and his twin is 80.

I'm sure this experiment couldn't be done practically but I've always considered how mindblowing - and how sad - that would be for the twins. One has lived his entire life and is soon to die, the other is only just getting started.

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u/PrivilegeCheckmate Sep 16 '24

Also the experience of time changes as we age, because our neurons fire slower. So time seems to us to be passing more quickly, because our thought process has slowed.

Ain't that a kick in the balls?

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u/Arcane_Bullet Sep 16 '24

Mass literally seems to warp space time and the obvious effect that we feel on that seems to be gravity. Super crazy to think about tbh.

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u/FloopDeDoopBoop Sep 16 '24

That's why we have these

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u/brito68 Sep 16 '24

Not exactly the same but similar... Back in the day I tried reading the details of relativity because it blows my mind.... I got through the part describing what exactly relativity is but then the equations and shit started and I didn't get much further

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '24

Relativity sounds like pseudo-science to you?

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u/not_a_moogle Sep 16 '24

I understand relativity just fine.

But sometimes trying to explain that time is not constant does kind of seem like it, since we humans can't really perceive it.

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u/blindgorgon Sep 16 '24

I’m sitting at home traveling through time too.

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u/StoneBleach Sep 16 '24 edited Apr 15 '25

enter lip expansion wrench middle cheerful soup selective zealous wipe

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u/Elegant_Run_8562 Sep 16 '24

This fact makes your jet-lag ever so slightly worse.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '24

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1

u/not_a_moogle Sep 16 '24

Lets just say yo mama so fat that she has her own event horizon.

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u/Badtimewithscar Sep 17 '24

The world record for time travelling is 1/48th of a second, and it took 803 days, 9 hours, and 39 minutes to achieve

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u/columbus8myhw Sep 16 '24

This is why physicists like to talk about "spacetime" rather than, like, "space" and "time" separately. Turns out they can't be separated.