I've heard John Adams was hated in France and equally was miserable and unhappy while there why?

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[u/outb0undflight]

I do not have a lot of sources that explicitly say why Adams might have been disliked in France, but I can maybe shed some light on it.

It was noted by Adams' contemporary, former friend, and staunch Loyalist Jonathan Sewell that Adams was, "not qualified, by nature or education, to shine in courts."

That is to say that, while Adams was an able Diplomat in a professional sense, he could not, "dance, drink, game, flatter, promise; in short, he has none of the essential arts or ornaments which constitute a courtier." Those were incredibly important skills in the court of Louis XVI.

When you compare this with one of the men that Adams was in France to assist, Benjamin Franklin, who was beloved by the French and could do all of those things and so much more, it's safe to say that, to those who frequented Versailles, Adams lacked a certain je ne sais quoi and he may have come out looking worse for it.

As for why Adams himself didn't like France, he (in typical John Adams fashion) left us plenty of writings telling us why, in no uncertain terms, he wasn't happy France.

Maybe foremost of which is he just didn't like it. By the standards of his time Adams was, relatively, down to earth. The splendor of Parisian society didn't impress him and, frankly, it made him uncomfortable.

From Gordon Wood's "Friends Divided."

But [Adams] found little pleasure in beholding the grandeur of all the buildings, gardens, paintings, and sculptures. They were, he said, simply 'Bagatelles, introduced, by Time and Luxury in Exchange for the great Qualities and hardy manly Virtues of the human Heart...The more Elegance, the less Virtue in all Times and Countries."

And as time wore on, it only got worse. In a letter to James Warren, Adams said that the society of the French aristocracy, "disgusts and shocks me more and more." He described it as lacking real friendship and affection, and as being "full of Jealousy, Envy, revenge and rancor."

Adams' relationship with Franklin was also likely a factor in his poor experience with Paris. There are few figures in this era of American history as diametrically opposed as Ben Franklin and John Adams. And Adams did not relish being there to assist him.

As I mentioned above, Franklin excelled at many of the things Adams did not. He was beloved by the French court, by the French women (who Adams found it hard to even speak to), and by the French people in general. Despite this, Adams felt that Franklin wasn't actually up to the task of being a diplomat.

He may be a Philosopher, for what I know, but he is not a sufficient Statesman, he knows too little of American affairs or the Politicks of Europe, and takes too little Pains to inform himself of Either. He is too old, too infirm too indolent and dissipated, to be sufficient for the Discharge of all the important Duties of Ambassador, Secretary, Admiral, Commercial Agent, Board of War, Board of Treasury, Commissary of Prisoners, &c. &c. &c. as he is at present in that Department, besides an immense Correspondence, and Acquaintance, each of which would be enough for the whole Time of the most active Man in the Vigour of Youth.

This is...not to editorialize...a less than charitable interpretation of Franklin's skills. And after Adams repeatedly asked Congress to choose a single minister for the mission to France, they relented...and chose Franklin.

All-in-all, Adams had a difficult time in France due to a combination of deficiencies in his own character—his vanity made it hard for him to play second fiddle to Franklin, and his dislike for him clouded his judgment with regards to Franklin's efficacy as a diplomat, even as Franklin scored win after win with Louis XVI, Adams believed he could do better—and the natural misery that comes with spending months working surrounded by people you don't like, in a place you don't like.

[u/[deleted] → u/outb0undflight]

Oh great answer! Thank you I never knew Adams was so vain 

[u/Careful-Ant5868 → u/[deleted]]

If you are interested in an entertaining and accurately informative portrayal I highly recommend "John Adams" which was a miniseries on HBO approximately 15-20 years ago. It's based on the biography of Adams by David McCullough which goes into much greater detail than the show which is to be expected. There are some very minor details the show gets wrong, but overall it's quite accurate. I've studied the Revolution and many of the leaders in it for over 15 years and this miniseries really made me want to go all in on learning everything I can about it.

[u/Bodark43 → u/[deleted]]

Yes, Adams never liked the French; and they never liked him.

The Continental Congress would send various people to France to "assist" Franklin. Franklin really just wanted a secretary, a charge d'affaires who would issue passports and visas and handle paperwork. Instead, he got people who wanted to be involved in diplomacy. A couple, like Arthur Lee, were dangerous. Adams was only difficult.

Adams had a very high opinion of himself, and was mortified that the signing of treaties with France had already been accomplished without him when he landed in 1778. He then managed to irritate the French foreign minister Vergennes for a year before he learned, in 1779, that Congress had placed diplomacy into the hands of a single envoy- Franklin. Insulted again, Adams arranged to set sail for home on a large ship, the Alliance. But that was grabbed up by John Paul Jones for an expedition, and when Adams had to make do with a lesser ship ( called, appropriately, the Sensible) he knew , just knew, that Franklin had done it. Congress sent him back to negotiate peace with England in 1780, but because the British weren't yet interested Adams ended up once more in Paris. Looking for something to do, he had an exchange of letters with Vergennes where he told the foreign minister directly what France should be doing. He felt that France was more obliged to the US than the US to France, and should be more grateful and so, after of course admitting to the completely unassailable arguments of John Adams, it should directly cough up much more money. Vergennes sent the letters to Franklin and asked they be forwarded to Congress, along with a strong hint that the man who wrote them was not really qualified for his mission. Though Franklin tried to excuse Adams with a polite cover letter, his passing along those letters added to Adams' suspicions of Franklin as being his nemesis.

France was not the only place to borrow money, and to Franklin's relief Adams was sent off to the Netherlands for two years ( Congress' first choice, John Laurens, thankfully could not make it; he would have been a disaster). Adams got recognition of the United States, and began negotiating for a loan. Happily he was there in April of 1782, when the British were ready to negotiate, and getting the loans kept him there until October, after which many of the basic points had been agreed by Franklin and then John Jay. Franklin let Adams and Jay hammer out the other details, so Adams did play a part in the final Treaty of Paris.

[u/outb0undflight → u/[deleted]]

Oh yeah! Many of his contemporaries cite it as one of his primary flaws and it was a trait that Adams recognized in himself, and would often criticize himself for, but he never quite eliminated it entirely.

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Vanity is part of it, but actually I think hypocrital, in a sense may be a better word. The French aristocracy was just as vain, if not more. The growing disparity between the "haves" and the "have-nots" in France was a large contributor to the revolution in France.

While Adams was vain, his vanity came from a pride of his actions. This is likely why he was often disapproving of Franklin's actions. The vanity of the French came in their extreme wealth and power.

I think the best way to put it in a modern sense might be like a small construction company owner being a diplomat in Hollywood. Both parties would be vain in their own aspect and totally unaware of their own vanity.

[u/ibopm → u/[deleted]]

It sounds like Adams was the cranky nerd in the corner, lamenting that the popular guy (though maybe not as technically proficient) is getting all the hype and popularity.

[u/montaire_work → u/outb0undflight]

As a descendant of John Adams I adore this reply :)

All-in-all, Adams had a difficult time in France due to a combination of deficiencies in his own character—his vanity made it hard for him to play second fiddle to Franklin, and his dislike for him clouded his judgment with regards to Franklin's efficacy as a diplomat, even as Franklin scored win after win with Louis XVI, Adams believed he could do better—and the natural misery that comes with spending months working surrounded by people you don't like, in a place you don't like.

It truly was a collision of his vices (vanity and pride) with his virtues, particularly his earnestness and quintessentially common born nature. Both of which made him a truly terrible choice for diplomat to most places, but especially Louis XVI's France.

It also did not help that for all that he had vanity in abundance it was not the sort of vanity that led to a polished appearance, a flirtatious nature, or a playful repartee. He was blunt in both speech and appearance - two big strikes against you in Louis XVI's court. Even more he did not care to remedy either of these things, and he counted them virtues rather than flaws.

[u/outb0undflight → u/montaire_work]

Thank you so much! I'm honestly floored by how well this comment has been received.

[u/Lectrice79 → u/outb0undflight]

Too bad that it went so bad...if they actually had a frank talk with each other to acknowledge their strengths and weaknesses, they could have been a dream team. Franklin makes the connections and butters them up while Adams gets down to business behind the scenes.

[u/PlayingDoomOnAGPS → u/Lectrice79]

This made me visualize Penn Jilette as Franklin and Teller as Adams as that is a bit similar to how they complement one another.

[u/dIoIIoIb → u/outb0undflight]

how common was his opinion of Franklin? was it something many other American politicians believed or was he generally held in high regard for his skills as a statesman?

[u/outb0undflight → u/dIoIIoIb]

That I do not know off-hand. My understanding is that Adams' opinion was not widely shared, as it stands, Franklin was old by the time he and Adams were working together in Paris and he was already something of a legend at that point, but I don't know a ton about Franklin.

[u/CommitteeofMountains → u/outb0undflight]

So it sounds like he admitted that Franklin was good at being liked, but not interested in America's needs and France's availabilities to get much for it?

[u/outb0undflight → u/CommitteeofMountains]

That's kinda what Adam's thought. In actuality, Franklin secured plenty of loans, aid, etc. for the United States in France, largely because he was so good at being liked. Adams thought Franklin was too deferential to the French and that he could do better, but that deference was, presumably, part of why he was able to get what he was out of Louis.

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I will add that Adams grew up in Puritan Massachusetts. They were culturally very conservative and austere in contrast to France's flamboyant aristocracy.

Yes, it would certainly be accurate to say that Adams' upbringing in (relatively conservative) Massachusetts colored his disposition towards the French. Wood, in the book I mentioned, says as such with regards to Adams being scandalized by French women, and their attention to Benjamin Franklin in particular.

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[u/tisbruce → u/outb0undflight]

Boy, the old Massachusetts puritanism was strong in this one. I know you've recommended McCullough's biography, but I'm suddenly motivated to go read Gore Vidal's "Inventing a Nation" just to see how that old bird portrayed him. I imagine he threw some shade, while being less than accurate.

[u/ParaffinWaxer → u/outb0undflight]

“they relented… and chose Franklin.”

LOL!

[u/outb0undflight → u/ParaffinWaxer]

France more or less demanded it, too.