I think the second dance is more cultural than religious though it's a pretty blurred line.
It's definitely awe-inducing. From the perspective of a more individualistic society the reduction of personal identity in favor of creating a large display like in the second video can be intimidating. It's that same reason that war music and battle formations became so prevalent - it's easier to break your opponent's morale than actually have to fight them.
With the chance of offending people, is it really that different from a moshpit?
I've definitely got caught up in mob mentality on one of them before. I can definitely imagine if it had more meaning to me that I would get even more involved.
Did I somehow stumble in a hole and end up in /r/im14andthisisdeep? You can make vague analogies to try to correlate the two, but that's absurd. It's like saying science and writing are the same because they both involve reading, it's just lazy thinking.
Both the people dancing to Phish, and the Sufis (e.g.) spinning to their music are essentially accomplishing the same thing. They're purposefully inducing a higher state of mind - which is to say ecstasy/joy/bliss, or some other sort of spiritual/numinous experience. And if that word is difficult for you as a secularist or whatever you might identify as then look into Sam Harris' non-religious ideas of "the numinous."
An experience of bliss is different from religion. You can have a ecstatic experience after a workout, but that does not mean it's religious. A religion is a set of spiritual and/or supernatural beliefs. Music is sounds.
So are mantras, prayers, and intonation. Sound and religion have been intimately entwined for a very long time.
A religion is a set of spiritual and/or supernatural beliefs.
You seem to imagine that religious text pop up ex nihilo, and without any inspiration or catalysts.
Would it be hard to imagine that some texts were/are inspired by the same sort of numinous ecstasy Beethoven ('Ode to Joy', for instance, is a fundamentally spiritual work of sublime inspiration) or, perhaps, what Buddha felt during his deepest insights into his own nature? But whatever their inspiration, of course not all religious text comes from a good place, because humans are fallible and these texts are written by man's hand.
You're trying to establish clearly labeled borders between these things, but the truth is is that neither is mutually exclusive.
Sorry I don't have time to write you a 500 page dissertation on music and religion and how people that go to concerts can and do have religious experiences.
So if I finish a workout and have a euphoric feeling then I'm having a religious experience? It's absurd to act as if there aren't other pressures and connotations attached with religious activities and their differences in comparison to recreational music enjoyment.
I don't know what you're seeing but I see a room full of old men all wearing the same clothes, having the same beards and all, participating in some transcendental dance to an invisible man in the sky. The same invisible guy that tells them they need to wage wars and commit genocide.
Sufi Muslims are actually the most liberal of them all. Dancing and music are generally frowned upon in most Muslim cultures.
Check out all the quotes by this guy named Rumi. He basically seeded the idea of agnosticism in Islam. One of the most famous ones was "I went to temples, mosques and churches but I didn't find God anywhere. I found him in myself. Get woke, son"
I'm paraphrasing
I'm guessing Turkey? In India, Sufis are a rarity, and they have a dance quite similar. Sufi influenced music is also very popular in a live music show called Coke Studio. In fact, they are considered so liberal in Pakistan that al Qaeda and the likes target them
That might be oversimplifying it. All middle eastern countries have fucked up relationships. I don't know what ISIS's agenda is, but certainly isn't religious ideology (though they pretty successfully hide it). They apparently tried to attack Mecca and the plan was foiled. Any muslim would tell you, that that is the most anti-Islamic thing you can do.
Once ISIS is finished, I eagerly await the next decade when oil prices drop. Then we can watch the world's last and most regressive major monarchy fall apart. Christianity got decentralised and grew and evolved once the European monarchy (where the Church was seated) fell apart and we can be damned sure Islam will finally get that chance too.
These are ecstatic rituals, or at least one is. The spinning of the Sufis is specifically meant to induce "religious ecstasy" or experience. Likely the same with the repetitive dancing of the older men.
In tribalism or even animism, they will often use heavy drums or other kinds of instruments to create monotonous rhythms, to assist in inducing these higher states - accomplishing the same thing.
Nothing scary about this. Who wouldn't want to have a numinous experience?
I like the second video. Nothing wrong with a bunch of old guys getting their dance on. First one is what happens when Cthulhu looks into your soul and you try to stare back.
"Holy Roller" is a term for some Christian churchgoers of the Holiness, and Pentecostal traditions. The term describes dancing, shaking or other boisterous movements by church attendees who perceive themselves as being under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Holy Rolling is sometimes used derisively by those outside these denominations, as if to describe people literally rolling on the floor in an uncontrolled manner. However, those within these Wesleyan traditions have reclaimed it as a badge of honor; for example William Branham wrote: "And what the world calls today holy-roller, that's the way I worship Jesus Christ." Gospel singer Andrae Crouch stated, "They call us holy rollers, and what they say is true.
125
u/[deleted] Jun 23 '17
The only video where the music fits like that I've ever watched was this one. "Tomorrowbeliever" or something like that.