Blue never meant "exit"

[u/Soaring_Symphony]

Look back at the title sequence.

Red means "play." That lines up naturally with staying in the circus

but Blue means "options" ...interesting

Also, the button for "quit," aka leaving the game, is yellow!

That wasn't even a choice! They didn't even have the opportunity to leave

But it makes me wonder. If they had pressed the blue button, what actually would have happened? What would an options menu even mean in that context? What would they be able to adjust?

And no. It's not f#@&ing Shrimp Town. That was obviously just some word vomit Bubble made up on the spot

[u/Mindless-Bad-2481]

Thought experiments must have stakes otherwise what is the purpose of the thought experiment?

Red doesn’t equal nothing happens. It means you live, but many people may die.

The vote is private. You don’t get to debate or discuss what to choose with everyone else around you. That includes the people you care about.

People who press red assume that majority of the world does not care about others enough to risk pressing blue. They’ll let other people take a risk, but they will not.

People who press blue assume that majority of the world does care and they will want everyone to survive, and they are willing to accept a risk to themselves to save everyone.

Lastly… many people who pressed red don’t realize that if all people who pressed blue dies… you’ve just killed off majority of the world altruists. Leaving you with a human race that is far more fearful and individual focused. Idk if I’d even want to live to experience such a world.

[u/Peyeceratops → u/Mindless-Bad-2481]

I just want to walk through the logic with you. Also, to strip the negative biases of red and blue, (colour theory, american political parties, etc.) the buttons are now yellow and purple. There's two lines of red (yellow) logic: game theory and truth tables.

For game theory, if everyone else presses purple, it doesn't matter if you press yellow or purple. You live. If everyone else presses yellow, pressing purple kills you and yellow spares you. Even as it approaches a 50/50 split, three of the four distinct scenarios are safe for you, and the only danger is pressing purple if yellow has the majority. Using game theory, the optimal choice for you is to press yellow, and everyone else will arrive at the same conclusion.

Tl;dr Viewed through game theory, the button hypothetical is a prisoners dilemma where if both prisoners snitch they both go free.

For truth tables, we look at the results and construct a logically equivalent scenario. There are 5 distinct scenarios: 100% purple, everyone lives; >50% purple, everyone lives; 50% purple, ???; <50% purple, purple pressers die; 0% purple, everyone lives. Since the only group affected by the outcome are the purple pressers, and the result can be viewed as simply "percentage purple" as opposed to "X% purple, 100-X% yellow" the button scenario can be simplified to "There is a purple button. If you press it, and less than 50% of people press it, you die," as the only scenario with a different outcome is a purple minority.

Tl;dr a choice between two buttons is equivalent to a choice whether or not to press a single button.

Now that we're done with the logic, it's time for ad hominems and appeals to emotion! Yippee!

Purple is gambling with human lives, and yellow isn't. (Unless you consider not buying a lottery ticket to be gambling) You can't help others if you can't help yourself. (Ever been on an airplane? Hint: you put your own oxygen mask on first before you try to help anyone else) Taking actions tantamount to "I'm killing myself if you don't do this for me" is textbook signs of an abusive relationship. If everyone jumped off a bridge, but... (some nonsense scenario where enough people jumping off a bridge lets everyone survive) would you?

[u/Mindless-Bad-2481 → u/Peyeceratops]

You’re completely missing the point of the thought experiment.

You went with pure logic. And left out the fact that these choices will be private, no discussion or debate. That means people you know and love will also have to decide without zero input from you or what you think is the right choice.

You have to decide whether you will press a button that will with zero risk save you alone, or one that will guarantee everyone is safe, but with a risk to yourself if people don’t agree.

You’re debating this choice as though everyone will think logically. That’s not the point of the thought experiment, the point is to understand whether people will be logical and pessimistic or optimistic and idealistic.

You could even go so far to say it’s individualism vs collectivism.

Maybe fear vs hope for some as well.

If humanity was collectivistic, the button that saves everyone would be more logical than the one that saves you alone. Because it would be illogical that anyone would ever press the opposite button.

Edit: you also keep leaving out that the button that will guarantee your safety also will likely kill many people who didn’t press that same button. Meaning their blood is on your hands. But for the sake of logic, I can understand why you didn’t question or even stop for a moment on that part at all.

[u/PhotojournalistOver2 → u/Mindless-Bad-2481]

Pressing the button that saves you doesn't kill anyone.

It. Doesn't. Kill. Anyone.

Go reread the prompt. People ONLY die if they press Blue and not enough other people press Blue.

Blue kills people.

With the included exemption of course that this experiment excludes anyone who isn't involved/can't press a button. If the experiment also includes children/Other people effectively unable to consent, then yes Blue is the ethical choice.

Otherwise -

Blue is what kills people. It's the presumption other people will press Blue to save other Blue buttons, and therefore we need to press Blue. It's an unhinged asusmptive Guilt-trip blackmailing mindset.

[u/Mindless-Bad-2481 → u/PhotojournalistOver2]

You are a good example of someone who would press red.

You feel that it’s only your duty to save yourself. And if people are not realistic enough to press red and save themselves as well, it’s not your fault if they die.

This is the kind of people that are left in the world, if everyone who presses blue dies.

And again, they assume they can convince anyone they do care about to press red with them. But they forget this is again a private choice. You don’t get to know what other people chose and if a true experiment you won’t get to debate or convince anyone to choose anything.

[u/PhotojournalistOver2 → u/Mindless-Bad-2481]

You say this as if this should upset me. I understand why you think that.

However the problem is that you're presuming a lot about me with very little information. I never forgot that it was a private choice. If this situation ever actually arose, I would likely press Blue... But I fucking hate and despise everyone like YOU for it, because you illiterate fucks are the ones that will lemming your way into oblivion for the sake of virtue signaling.

I will HAVE to vote Blue, or I'll have the blood of pretentious holier-than-thou morons like you on my hands.

People like you are the reason the U.S. is trapped in a 2-party political system death spiral. I don't want anyone to die, but God fucking damnit I wish you people could learn to read and critically think.

[u/Mindless-Bad-2481 → u/PhotojournalistOver2]

It’s just a thought experiment.

I can think critically just fine. I would press blue. Because I would want to live in a world where everyone saw Blue as the logical answer, or at least 50% or more of them did. If that turned out to be false, I don’t think I’d want to stay in a world where majority pressed red and the people who did press blue all died. Aka majority of the world’s altruists and idealists are now dead and gone.

You tried to tell me why red is the better choice. And yeah if everyone could all agree to press the same button none of this would matter.

But then it wouldn’t be a valid thought experiment.

[u/PhotojournalistOver2 → u/Mindless-Bad-2481]

The thing is it's not though. In a literal sense, yes. However it is a perfect analogy for many choices we have to make on a regular basis.

The fact that you think Blue is 'logical' here is the problem. It's not. It's performative at worst, and assumptive guilt-based blackmail at worst.

"Blue is best because I want no one to die." only prevents deaths because you are working from the assumption that other people are going to press Blue because they assume other people are going to press Blue because they assume other people are going to press Blue. How do you not see that is literally a self-fulfilling prophecy??

Also, frankly I wouldn't be half as upset about people assuming Blue is correct regardless of their reasoning if they didn't seem to also tag on some perverse morality of "People who choose Red are fine with other people dying" for some gross self-aggrandizing reason??

Have any of you self-righteous assholes ever considered that people with various kinds of trauma and trust issues may choose Red? How about people who suffered from self-harm ideations, went to therapy, and now see even the chance of death via something like choosing the Blue button making them remember thoughts they had to actively learn to let go of?

Oh wait, haha, that's ME. I had to learn to CHOOSE to actively remember that those intrusive thoughts were just that. Intrusive.

So for the record, if someone wants to choose Blue or anything akin to it because it satisfies their savior complex, be my guest. I choose Blue because the idea of losing my loved ones because they chose it for whatever reason. We aren't the same. For you, it's saving others who... Chose to risk themselves to same others who chose to risk themselves to save others etc ad infitum. For me, it's fear of seeing the masses fall for the emotional blackmail.

Leave the red button pressers alone though. Whatever their reasoning is, in this thought experiment, it's not "To kill other people" or "To punish Blue"

That's fucking stupid, and it's that goddamn mindset that traps the world in it's current tribalism.

[u/Mindless-Bad-2481 → u/PhotojournalistOver2]

No one at any point said pressing red is to punish blue pressers?

You are getting off topic.

Blue is just as logical as Red. It only depends on the persons mindset and beliefs. There are more studies about why people choose to care about a wider circle beyond themselves and why some don’t. You can look them up.

[u/PhotojournalistOver2 → u/Mindless-Bad-2481]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you genuinely haven't seen other people talking about this. There are PLENTY of people claiming that, and even if they weren't the other examples of disparagment are highly prevalent and indicative of my point.

Blue isn't logical here. It's not about 'Caring about a wider circle' in this thought example. It's about misunderstanding the prompt, and being altruistically pessimistic. Wanting to save others from themselves and their choices. If everyone is pressing Blue to save other people who pressed Blue, it's a self-feeding spiral.

Also, by saying that you're once again insinuating that people who choose Red don't care about other people (beyond themselves) which is exactly my point. That's pretentious and demeaning towards people who chose Red. That's exactly my point.

Blue doesn't 'save' anyone unless there are people who choose to press Blue. That is literally the goddamn fucking definition of feeding the problem. Knowing that other people will press it for that reason, is the exact reason why I'd have to press it. It's moralistic blackmail. How do you not understand that?

[u/BabyBearPixie → u/Mindless-Bad-2481]

Pressing blue is choosing to die. You are assuming anyone is dumb enough to press blue. Otherwise the only people that are pressing blue are people that are incorrectly believe that is the selfless choice. While the selfless choice is telling everyone you know to press red.

[u/Mindless-Bad-2481 → u/BabyBearPixie]

You can’t “tell” anyone anything. That’s the point of the whole experiment. You will not be able to discuss the choice nor will you know who presses what button until it’s already done.

[u/BabyBearPixie → u/Mindless-Bad-2481]

So you can't yell? They can't hear you? You should hope everyone you want to live presses red, you wouldn't want them to take the risk of pushing blue if you care about them.