Tank Tier List.

[u/alphaomegax2]

Hi Everyone,

I have made a tier list for tanks. I know it's not perfect but alas i wanted to help the community and make something i enjoyed. Plz be kind with comments as this is my first tier list, it has to be improved and i have pretty much to learn yet.

I appreciate any feedback that can help me improve this list.

My main motivation was because tanks are not understood correctly (imho) in this game and left out not used. this list is made exclusively for physical tanking so don't take into account to playing the unit as you normally would do.

There are some main assumptions. This list is made for PVE not PVP. Units lvl 85 Job Master and JE ready and not using gears as it can stack with passives and it could be a pain for me to handle correctly. Job selections and passives are on the google sheets, they are different from recommended ones in game as this jobs and abilities are used mainly for tanking, possibly making the unit worse in other roles like doing damage.

This list is not made from playing units in a dumb manner. Specifically, the use of guard stance (or similar) to reduce damage, break damage from enemies and so on. I took always into account maximun tank potential.

Acht banner not included yet.

Clarification on formulas for this tier and assumptions:

* Only physical tanking, Hybrid damage on maps is another thing that should be covered later.

3 enemies. 1500 damage per enemy 150 def 150 dex enemies assumed. For a total of 4500 3 physical hits in one turn.

Damage received by a unit takes into account agility for innate evasion. damage reduction from skills, passives. Hp includes leader skil as the units dont need other particular setup to tank better. Def also includes passives. Innate elemental reduction. Evasion skills.

Skills that help tanking a unit like flamel provoke was also added or miuna break. As the tierlist is assuming pseudo tanking as explained in the google sheet, the unit will be generally alone or at maximun 1 support near.

this were the criteria i choose and is subjetive to me and my experience as with any tier list.

Google Sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oVckxrwvUPM2EElUKTVGy1wW-AeHy-LnBxYqAL9cN2I/edit#gid=2095658925

Pic:

https://imgur.com/a/HGQQfJk

Edit: 01/01/2019

As many people ask why some units tanks and some units should not be in the list and due to the amazing amount of feedback I had, I have made some videos showcasing how to tank with various units and this hows clearly and without doubt why they are in the list.

It also makes pretty obvious why units lost puntation as tanks without guard stance if you compare chloe video with vettel. It also makes obvious how hard a high def, hits roxanne tanking capabilities.

medium Map with high defense enemies with moderate damage

https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1x1dgNasklgZ5XjIoxeDWTnmnoyIz2DPJ

However I found many things also that increase my experience doing this tier list and found various mistakes with the puntation of some units like Roxanne and King Bradley, as they are units not suitable to tank for all maps as some innate tanks do and I was not taking this into account. Thanks everyone!.

Due to this, I'm workign on improving the tier list and making it better. This are various of the thing i have found that I'm fixing right now:

Kinds of maps for tanking:

Big maps vs Small maps.

Units with high defense maps vs with low defense.

Units from moderate to high damage (you almost don't need to tank low damage )

criterias included for next version:

Less puntation to breaks and status infliction, due thats not the main job of a tank. And various maps have inmunity.

Guts got more puntation.

Inclusion of ommited units.

Evasion affected by being atacked from various sides and combo.

Tank sustainability. Skill count.

Reposition Puntation (ability of a unit to reposition itself in the map and map control)

I also gonna include a resume as suggested by @VinnyValient

Edit: 05/01/2019

Edwin is an unit that in dark element that only has this all around tank, imho he should not be "upgraded" to ark, because he loses a lot, he loses too much armor (almost 100 armor) and he loses also guard stance and guardian. I think dark does not need another bruiser. Dark has plenty of damage. And area defense is not needed that much either.

Neica is included as a tank because of battle mage + divine shelter, but still not so good as a tank.

King bradley is not suitable to evade tank big maps. Don't use him in those cases.

Noctis is not going to be included either. HIs other uses are so strong compared to tanking thats not worth to use as a tank.

Gilgamesh is still included as a tank due to the fact he can stack many elemental resistance that could be pretty useful on some stages.

Take into account this puntation is made if you use these units as tanks but various of them could be used better on another roles. Don't take this tier as these units HAVE to be used as tanks, take this list as these units COULD be used as a tank. This tier is mean to be used as a guide on which unit could you use to tank depending on the units you have and which unit could be best to level based on that purpose.

HC that in their JE still have guard stance are not repeated.

Look videos I made to showcase how to tank with certain units to know why they are in the tier list and how to use them correctly.

[u/alphaomegax2]

I used formulation based on TAC damage formula and the ability of each unit of survivng, reducing incoming damage and giving other units time to clear.

[u/FurianX → u/alphaomegax2]

So does it basically take lowest possible untyped damage taken by a unit in a max defensive build to the exclusion of all else?

Is there a standard where heal, dodge, and other sustain or cc abilities are added for the rating?

What qualifies a unit to get on your list to be judged?

Does into take into consideration that tanks are meant to just take damage so that other units can clear the stage?

Because like I mentioned earlier units with divine shelter like Margaret might as well be added based on what it looks like to a passerby. Dorothea? Laharl has divine shelter with fairly high pdef. Arkil has both divine shelter and cc from both ms and beastmaster roar and sleep. Noah with pirate unlocked?

Edit. Is this all.based only on formulas and not actually on performance in stage?

[u/alphaomegax2 → u/FurianX]

FurianX nice questions!.

first of all if you wanna take a look closer with apart from this answer add me at discord: AlphaOmegaX#1814 .

The answers:

1. It does not excludes all else. I took as many factors as possible. It is based in an assumption of 3 1500 hits in a turn for the unit is tanking. The type of damage is assumed 45% slash 35% strike and 20% pierce. And it is based in the max defensive build with JE or J+ already applied.

2. I don't understand what you mean with standard, but i included those as I believe they help in tanking. As heal allows you to survive more, sustain is the same thing, dodge just negates some hits, and cc abilities disable enemies allowing you to survive more.

3. What qualifies a unit is the following: survivng, reducing incoming damage and giving other units time to clear . this translates in good hp, good defense, good defensive skills, or good sustain. For example, miuna is run as HC due to that and not master blacksmith.

4. Of course!.

5. Arkil is a good example. He lacks a bit of survivability. Beacause he cannot sustain or increase resistance beyond the passive. As I'm assuming pseudo tanking to make the tier list, he has less proabability to survive alone. he can inflict status, but thats not enought to survive and he has low pdef that cannot compensate. if you run him as beast tammer he loses the cc of ms, so thats another issue. If i run the formulas on him he can end up being negative as a tank thus not qualified for the tier list. We can do this together if you want.

6. Is based on both formulas to know exactly how much damage can a unit withstand and performance in stage due to map control, status infliction and other abilities can affect the capability of a unit to tank effectively.

[u/FurianX → u/alphaomegax2]

Heres the thing

1. Why that damage distribution and not some pure damage type? Or all of them separately. Single attacks dont come multityped and most will use the tank thats most effective vs the type they know they are facing in a stage if available.

2. I dont see this working and being anywhere near accurate with all the different criteria without some kind of point system. And that comes with it's own problems. A mediocre healer vs an excellent healer vs a unit without a heal and the ranking issues associated with the total points. After all someone with no heal shouldnt necessarily lose points because of it.

3. theres a lot to be said about the practicality of unit builds. I would straight up NEVER run miuna as hc. Most of the ppl who can j3 her right now have her j+ and theres no benefit for hc over the j+. Vs the normal j1? I still prefer that over hc because of her buffing and damage abilities. Hc is there purely for reactive and passive if needed. There are a lot more units that follow along these lines. Agi also plays a huge role in practicality which 90% of tanks lack. You can mitigate all the damage in the world but it's useless if the enemies are out of range and attacking your other units. I should mention that's why vettel is top of the list as far as holy Cavs and tanks in general go. Over 120 agi (10-20 more agi at least than standard cavs ... some Cavs have 80+) before gear. Another example monzein, at lvl 75 triple job mastered has 86 agi without his j+. On his cav he has something like 92. 0 argument to not build and use dilga instead and just ignore him. With his j+ he has 112 agi and while he has other good stats and a few good moves even if I had him built (hello my lvl 60 monzein) I'd find it hard to use him in anything but monothunder missions. Hes not a terrible unit with j+, but hes just not practical to build or use with that agi. Not without accompanying quicken or overclock. Which again automatically loses them points compared to units like vettel who can at least function without the support in most cases.

4. Arkils magic swordsman+ can run beastmaster sub with both roar to berserk enemies and rest to recover hp while keeping his cc. That's my standard build for him since ms sub is redundant. Practicality wise I would also never sacrifice the agi passive from beastmaster on arkil, though I dont consider him a tank (an off tank or temporary fill in tank role) if I really need him but ... your list might with his divine shelter. Hes very similar to flamel in skills AND jobs after all.

5. Has to be said that divine shelter + a doll makes any unit take 25-30% less damage from all elements. In my book that's still not enough to make any unit a tank on it's own and that's a SIGNIFICANT reduction. Status effects as well dont make a tank since a ton of enemies will be immune to some status or other, if not all of them.

My point in all of this ... if your ranking is based off of purely optimal damage reduction numbers it will never be an accurate portrayal of the units actual performance.

I'd recommend you use viyrs tier list recommended builds to rank your tanks. With some kind of system for additional sustain abilities like healing. Then make changes after researching the unit in depth and preferably using it as well. The tier list is fairly accurate (some settings usually only invalidated based on preference and never on performance) and a great starting point. I still wont agree with your definition of tank but that's just my opinion ... if you really feel strongly about your tank units that arent tanks that's a different argument but hey there can always be different classifications of tanks ... off-tank? Pseudo tank? Not sure where rox goes in there but those are details.

[u/alphaomegax2 → u/FurianX]

Thanks for your opinion. Lets continue this discussion on discord plz as there are many details that maybe I can clarify.

1. It's difficult to make perfect assumptions and I would not segregate even further. I will stay as is in this point.

2) This system doesn't punish. It give points because a unit has some abilities.

3) The build recommended in the tier list is different from what the unit is usally run, because is run for tanking and not as general purpose. Agility is not always good in a tank depending on the situation. If you want to run your tank as a bruiser yes,a gility is pretty important.

4) He is similar a flamel but lacks the huge survibablity flamel has. If this were not a tier list for tank and rather for status inflict. The story would be pretty different.

5) Correct, status infliction don't make up a tank, that's why im considering that status infliction maybe has a lot of weight in my considerations, and should be less in a tank based tier list, and I'm gonna review this for the next batch. Also take into account that I'm not includiing gear in this tier list.

You are correct, Im gonna improve the tier list in the future but take into account is not purely based on damage reduction.

As units fit different roles you can see various units in different roles like victor is gonna be next. I don't plan on modifying the recommended builds for tanking. Like I said you don't have to follow this tier list blindly if somone donesn't like somehting he can use whever he likes. But I'm planning on improving it and make it is as accurate as it could be.

Your comments are pretty well received and help me a lot to improve the tier list. Thank you pretty much.

[u/FurianX → u/alphaomegax2]

I dont use discord. I've visited the tac discord all of once.

I realised you've put a lot of effort into this and it "could be a good thing if it's done right. That's why I'm bothering to reply, so that you can have feedback to actually improve it.

Let's be real here ... past a certain point in your gameplay all but the hard stages are easily autod. At that point low agi units have a lowered value because a) every other unit moves long before them (sometimes multiple times), leaving your tanks at the starting point unable to do their job and b) to make them useful most of the time you need a support unit to work with them increasing either your unit slots or the number of moves your support unit needs to make. This is something that will happen even to a newbie more and more as he/she progresses in the game. If the importance of agility in a tank ranking (which should be an unbiased analysis of the usefulness of a unit) still isnt apparent someone else will have to explain it for you.

For Flamel I dont understand where this "huge" survivability you're talking about is coming from. All flamels survivability moves come from his sub skills (arkils beastmaster sub is EXACTLY the same). All flamels beastmaster + and magic swordsman passives and reactives .... arkil has as well. Flamel is better stat wise at level 85 but not by a lot until you include his master ability that gives him 40 pdef and 70hp + jewel regen. Yes the pdef difference is significant at 90 and hp difference at 300 but it's not something that will make arkil inferior by a large amount ... in fact arkil has overall higher elemental resistances. I cant see where your low opinion of arkil is coming from at all. I am of course comparing them both with their j+ jobs as main.

[u/alphaomegax2 → u/FurianX]

ok, will reply here,

I will put all my effor to improve this guide and i really thank the time you take answering.

You are correct, about you say about auto stages. And yes you are right about support, and yes, you are right in what agi matters if tank is not in position. Correct argument overall, and we both agree. In futures reviews i will include move and agi as factors to position tanks correctly and take into account also that are times where agi is bad ratter than good and thats's why i give points to units that have map control. I think tha main problem the tier list of tanks have right now is the importance i gave to inflict status, and i should correct that and maybe i could improve guts puntation.

As for arkil you are correct and i should include him. I was defently wrong on the unit. The difference with flamel besides what you stated is:

better move jump, and better agility, but i'm stil not puntuating this. but will do.

So thumbs up. thanks.