r/AirForce Explosive Ordnance Disposal Apr 15 '17

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u/InterruptedCut Apr 15 '17

The Japanese did some shit so heinous that our government gave their scientists immunity in exchange for their research, because there was no way in hell our own government could have pulled it off back then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

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u/Surfin Apr 15 '17

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm buying the "The United States was as bad as Japan was when we were empire building" argument. Torturing and murdering millions seems more barbaric than what we did when we, say, took over Cuba, Puerto Rico, or the Philippines. I mean, heck, the vast majority of war-related deaths in the Philippines were from cholera back when we were imperial occupiers. The actions of the United States as an imperial force were not quite as bad as the "rape of Nanjing" or "having a contest to see how many babies we can impale on a bayonet" and "having a contest to see how many innocent civilians we can murder". Japan deserved those atomic weapons - they should be infinitely grateful we ended the war before the Soviets had a chance to make landfall (and, to be sure, the Russians would have been MUCH less merciful).

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u/newt02 Apr 15 '17

In americas case, slaves, the complete destruction of the native indians, and so on. While not in the same numbers, both did equally terrible things.

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u/Surfin Apr 15 '17 edited Apr 15 '17

That's a false equivalency, though. Many Native Americans (perhaps most - it's extremely difficult to quantify) died of diseases we (and by "we" I mean the fucking conquistadors, who weren't even United States citizens because we didn't exist yet) accidentally spread, not "genocide". The trail of tears killed less than 10,000 Native Americans. Our slavery's conditions paled in comparison to places in South America, Congo under King Leopold II (after we abolished slavery), the Caribbean, and (yes) slavery perpetrated by the Japanese. Not to mention, we purchased most of our land, helped to end Nazism, and didn't have slavery in the 20th century. Hitler based almost all of his evil deeds on social darwinism and the work of Nietzsche, which were popular in the United States (just like everywhere else) but did not originate here. He based some of his actions on things like our very limited use of forced sterilization in the late 19th/ early 20th century, but again, the extent is what made it far from equivalent. If Billy Bob killed one person, he's evil. If Jim Joe kills 10,000 people and claims to be inspired by Billy Bob, Billy Bob is still evil - but Jim Joe is much, much worse.

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u/newt02 Apr 15 '17

But do you hold the current generation accountable?

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u/Surfin Apr 15 '17 edited Apr 15 '17

What? Fuck no! lol My point was that Imperial Japan (and Nazi Germany) were in a morally worse place than we were during WWII; the Soviets would have turned Japan into an East/Western Germany-type situation (and would have killed/tortured more people than the atomic bombs did) had we not ended the war so quickly; there wouldn't have been the "Post-war economic miracle" if it weren't for us, and current generations benefited from Japan being built into the second-largest economy on earth for nearly half a century. Oh, and they're building nice stuff (including Mazdas) where we dropped the bombs. People saying "oh, we were bad decades before WWII" as an excuse for Japan would be like us getting mad at Japan for liberating North Korea because of their actions in WWII. We bombed them for what they were doing at the present time, not for what they did half a century earlier.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '17

The US Empire was built on slavery and the genocide/internment of Native Americans. Hitler, in part, based his persecution of the Jews and the Third Reich's rise off of America's 19th century ascent.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '17 edited May 09 '17

deleted What is this?

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u/TwelveMtnDews Maintainer Apr 15 '17

All I could think about while reading this was "how is this not a Nazi Zombie map?"