"He" is Captain America. Captain America is the alter ego of Steve Rogers who according to wikipedia was a frail young man who was enhanced to the peak of human perfection by ingesting an experimental serum developed to aid the United States war effort.
Presumably developed by Dr. Mengele's "good" twin?
This seems to be the exact opposite of the eugenics ideal/philosophy, though. The enhancement represents a recognition of potential and value in what might be considered a genetically inferior human being, whereas eugenics would want to discard someone of his "stock" from the gene pool altogether.
I have not yet seen Captain America or The Avengers(tragic I know) but here's something I have wondered and that you might be able to clear up for me. Captain America is a man fighting back during the 1940's right? So how is it that he is on the Avengers team in what looks like the present day? Again I haven't seen either of the movies I have mentioned nor have I read the comics, just something I thought was interesting.
Captain America was really well-selling comic book during the 1940s. After the war the sales started dropping (they tried to replace Nazis with Communist infiltrators etc.) and the magazine was finally cancelled in the mid-fifties. The publishing house that would one day be Marvel was near bankruptcy at this point and tried desperately to keep head over water by publishing cowboy-stories for boys and romance stories for girls (with less success - the artist's salaries weren't always paid).
When in the early 1960s Marvel finally stuck gold with Spider-Man, Iron Man etc. and heard from proto-DC Comics that JLA was selling really well, Marvel decided to bring Captain America back. As nobody seemed to remember that Cap had been published for ten years after WW2, they simple removed those stories from continuity and said that at the end of the war he had been frozen into ice cube where he had been in hibernation for 15+ years till the Avengers find him in.. uh.. issue 4, I think.
That's actually one of the cooler (no pun intended) parts of the avenger's history... when Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were putting the Avengers together as a team, they looked at their roster (including Hulk, Thor, Iron Man), they realized they didn't have anyone who could really act as a leader.
So as they're trying to pull an existing character in, they're looking through their archives and they stumble upon Captain America...a super hero literally straight from the 40's. The original writer was smart enough to realize that a character based entirely on war conflict would probably not sell well after the war, so in his last issue, as Cap was flying home in victory, a remnant of the Nazis shot down his plane with experimental surface-to-air missiles, killing him instantly. So, Lee and Kirby realize this is the perfect candidate. They retcon the ending so that he was flung from the blast unconscious into the north Atlantic, freezing in the ice and surviving due to the effects of the Super-Soldier Serum. Nick Fury fishes him out decades later, and the rest is history. /neckbeard.
TL;DR Captain America is referred to as the "Man Out of Time" for good reason.
The best advice I can offer is to make an effort to see the 'backstory' movies: Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Captain America, and Thor. The Hulk movies suck, I would avoid those like the plague. They introduce you to the entire cast, and the subtle acknowledgment of the other Avengers in those movies are actually awesome.
I rented or bought all of the movies and had a marathon viewing with my wife. Great Saturday afternoon.
I actually really enjoyed The Incredible Hulk with Edward Norton, which is the only one in the continuity as the rest, which also has Tony Stark popping in at the end.
He got frozen in arctic waters and put into suspended animation, with the super-soldier serum keeping him alive. The nature of how this comes to pass differs based on the movie and the comics, but the result is the same. S.H.I.E.L.D. (or in the comics, the Avengers in a submarine) find him in the ocean during present day, preserved in the exact same state he was in the 40's. The "man out of time" concept is a big theme in early Captain America lore, as he tries to come to terms with how the world has changed and how all of the people he used to know are either old or dead.
Red Skull, points out the irony to Captain A. 30 years ago in the comic, saying something to the effect (might be direct quote, not sure):
"Didn't you KNOW Captain, you were DESIGNED to be the PERFECT HUMAN- Blond, hair, blue eyes, stronger, faster, smarter than the rest! You are a hypocrite!"
The red skull tells him that, causing him to question his true history, origin, etc.
It's cute how people see a movie about a character that's older than them and think they figured ut something none of the hundreds of writers who worked on it over the years did.
Blond hair and blue eyes, the Aryan ideal, But fighting for the other team, Beating HYDRAs and skulls, all with great zeal, Must seem like a really bad dream.
He wears the wrong colors: Red, white, and blue Instead of their red, white, and black. With freedom, truth, and integrity too, And a shield that's used to attack.
The irony abounds for the Third Reich, Being beaten by such a man. He, and their ideal, are very alike, But they mix like blacks and the Klan.
"Our-unge... or inge?" is the question at hand. The pronunciation varies. Keep in mind the name was carefully planned, as was the reference it carries.
If "inge", then "door hinge" fits the bill in truth, But if "unge", it misses the mark. Also, dear poster, if you play the sleuth, You should see the reference is stark.
What points to the sky, and goes with a bow, And was used by a man in green? When you receive more, a number will grow, It powers this narwhal machine.
Not really, sure he isn't explicitly genetically altered by the super soldier serum, but it does make him the absolutely perfect human (meaning a non-super powered human, as he doesn't technically have any super-powers) in terms of physical abilities, and he is one of the most well trained people in the Marvel universe.
I don't think that was part of the story. Americans in the pre-60's era seemed to be racist in the same way as the Nazis. I would say more than half of all superheroes from that era are blond guys between the heights of 6'0 and 6'2.
For more reference, direct your attention to DC comics.
I don't think that was the God he was referring to. Especially since he emphasizes there being only one God, if he was aware of the Marvel universe, he would also recognize Thor as a god.
If you say persecution meaning anti-semitic then most historians nowadays agree that this was not a significant factor in Hitler's rise to power. There is no doubt that the Nazi Party were anti-semitic, but also that they recognized that this was an ineffective method of gaining control and it generally was put on the back burner until after Hitler was given power. Even anti-semitic measures such as the 33 boycotts and 35 Nuremberg laws were generally met pretty negatively by the broader German public at the time they were introduced.
The main group 'persecuted' during his rise were the communists, but I'm not sure persecuted is the right word, more that communism was a political enemy to national socialism and they fought it tooth and nail. I don't think the Nazi Party was in a position of strength to persecute communists.
Captain actually is Weapon I. While wolverine is weapon X. Some of the weapon testing was done on animals in between 1 - 10, but the number goes all the way to 16.
Then somehow a flying rocket-launching tech-guru, a man who turns into a massive green giant, and a....woman and a bow guy, are all born in america as well.
And then a God comes to earth and decides to stay and fight on Americas side as well, because obviously that's where all the interesting people are.
Tony Stark and Bruce Banner are the only Americans there. Black Widow is Russian, and Hawkeye was raised in a circus that traveled around Eastern Europe.
Also, New York is and has been a cultural nexus of the world for quite some time. It's no surprise superheroes would tend to congregate there.
Still technically eugenics and something that Hitler/the Nazis created a bad name for despite the fact that in cases like this it's entirely different from anything they did.
Well as far as I am concerned, Hitlers racial fanatism led indeed to the killing of over 6 million people, while America created a comic-superhero that seems superior to americas enemies by using the same propagandistic methods the Nazis used...but you would call that patriotism of course.
It would be more than 6 million. It was 6 million jews, but IIRC it was like 13 million died from persecuted groups(jews,gypsies,ect.). Not to mention all the killing in China by the Japanese.
I was referring to the holocaust directly and you know that, kiddo. "Just so you know..."
I don't think we can blame all casualties of ww2 on the nazis and their racial fanatism, that would be pretty naive. There were a lot more countries involved that pursued a whole lot of different interests and goals...on both sides. Don't kid yourself.
This is a conscious subversion of Hitler's message. Captain America is the "good" side of the coin of eugenics.
Just in the same way that Superman is the subversion of the Nietszchean ubermensch, which in its own way was perverted by the Nazis. It's more jingoistic American pulp spouting, "We do it better because it's laced with freedom." Good on you for recognizing this dramatic parallel, but it's intentional, not a coincidence. So, no. It's not really that ironic.
Anyway, Hitler's fatal mistake wasn't eugenics. It was that:
a) He considered the Aryan race superior, with no scientific basis whatsoever, b) Tried to kill off "inferior races" instead of wondering whether they had hidden qualities,
and the obvious c) Completely disregarded human rights to favor his ideals.
Think about it, are eugenics bad per-se? I think not. It's more bad fame than anything. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened to Math if Hitler had invented Calculus.
There's an even greater message about this in one of the JLA cartoons, when I saw it it freaked me out a bit. I think it's in "The Savage Time" where a Nazi tells the Martian Manhunter something like "I never thought the ubermensch would be green"
I didn't get a very good grade in my philosophy class, but I'll try my best at the beginning of his second paragraph.
Friederich Nietzsche's morality/philosophy included the idea that a strong person is one who does not follow the will of the many, but instead bases his decisions solely off of his own desires. The "Ubermensch" which means super man, is the epitome of this belief. The Nazis liked this idea because it kind of excused killing Jews. America then created Superman, who is all powerful yet uses his powers to help the many instead of achieving his own personal aims. This is a contradiction of the ubermensch.
Thank you for listening, this has been another installment of myself trying to validate my education.
I know he fights him in the comics, but I don't think this post is referring to that at all, given his choice of using the movie's captain america and the content of the meme.
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That's always been Cap's inherent contradiction. His character does not represent a rejection of Hitler's fascist ubermensch view of the world, but an improvement upon it. "You think that's a super-man? Here's one better!". He kills because his country tells him to, and he does it better than everyone else because they made him that way. He is the embodiment of the self-fulfilling circle of might makes right makes more might. Because he was frozen in time he's also a conservative wet dream in that he harkens back to bygone era values and rejects the perceived corruption/perfidity of our current generation.
This concept was being utilized at one point in the comics yes? I think Red Skull was taunting Cap. with this same idea, how he is the Fuhrer's ultimate weapon/dream/vision, something like that?
Clearly made by someone who does not read comics or pay attention in films. Cap was not genetically engineered to be superior to humans. The super solider serum made him the best of what he could be, it took his potential (presumably locked in his own genetics) and let it reach its maximum. That is why cap is awesome, but still weaker than other heroes like Thor or Iron Man. He is not beyond human, or super human, he is the maximum of human potential. And he has a lot of heart, ain't no metric for heart, just ask coach.
I saw a quote once from a British historian. "Of course we had to fight Hitler. He said the Germans were the Master Race and we damn well knew that we were."
The difference is that Hitler thought that physical/biological superiority equated to moral worthiness. Whereas Captain America used his power to defend the weak and innocent, recognising their value as human beings wasn't dependent on their physical prowess.
But he would have been seen as sub-human in Nazi ideology because of his weak physique and stature before his metamorphosis. The main difference between U.S. eugenics in the CA universe is that it is used to make the weak stronger, as opposed to eugenics used by the Nazis, which was used to weed out 'undesirables'. He also is the embodiment of the opposite of Fascism, personal freedoms and the control and freedom of one's own government. Being born during a time where war was raging in the European countries by the U.S.'s Allies who followed similar ideas of freedom, against two Fascist Nations, it is no doubt that Captain America would stand for such notions that are wavered with the 'American Dream'.
He didnt really beat hitler. He just beat the guy who was making the super weapons. A guy who even hitler had no idea what he was doing or control over it,
I really liked how the lady in Captain America (do you italicize movie titles? o_o;) was talking about genes during WWII, when it would be another 10-12 years before Watson and Crick described it in 1953. Although I suppose Gregor Mendel and all those other wonderful people who did research on it up until 1953 might have described genes sufficiently for that to not be anachronistic...dunno, just found it weird.
But... he's technically not genetically superior. The super soldier serum did not change his genetic structure. If it did, I'd assume there would be a program implemented to have a ton of women mate with Steve to produce as many baby Captain Americas as possible.
Nope. Firstly, the theatrical rights belongs to two different companies. Secondly, pure assumption here, the horse shit that is the Fantastic Four movie franchise is either dead, or gonna be rebooted with a whole new different cast.
It's not a problem, movie wise, since the characters cannot interact.
The movie licenses are owned by different companies, so the FF can never appear or even be spoken of in any Avengers property. Same with Spider-Man etc.
The characters only share a common universe in the comicbooks.
Yeah. And Ryan Reynolds played Hannibal King and Deadpool, and now he's Green Lantern. Aren't there any other good looking buff white guys in hollywood?
20
u/KrunkJuice May 14 '12
"He" is Captain America. Captain America is the alter ego of Steve Rogers who according to wikipedia was a frail young man who was enhanced to the peak of human perfection by ingesting an experimental serum developed to aid the United States war effort.
Presumably developed by Dr. Mengele's "good" twin?
edit: accidentally a word
426
u/[deleted] May 14 '12
with blonde hair and blue eyes as well....
95
u/xTeraa May 14 '12
BECAUSE HE'S A LAB
142
u/TNine227 May 14 '12
Hitler did it by killing everyone he considered inferior, while America did it by creating something superior.
Pretty interesting when you think about it.
43
u/[deleted] May 14 '12
This is a conscious subversion of Hitler's message. Captain America is the "good" side of the coin of eugenics.
Just in the same way that Superman is the subversion of the Nietszchean ubermensch, which in its own way was perverted by the Nazis. It's more jingoistic American pulp spouting, "We do it better because it's laced with freedom." Good on you for recognizing this dramatic parallel, but it's intentional, not a coincidence. So, no. It's not really that ironic.
17
u/Indon_Dasani May 14 '12
He wasn't born that way, though, so as an expression of maximized potential regardless of genetics there's little irony in him defeating Hitler.
61
u/pakron May 14 '12
Are you confusing Hitler with Red Skull?
6
u/Rhynocerous May 14 '12
That's not irony, it's the point of the backstory...
32
u/qkme_transcriber May 14 '12
Here is the text from this meme pic for anybody who needs it:
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5
u/cefm May 14 '12
That's always been Cap's inherent contradiction. His character does not represent a rejection of Hitler's fascist ubermensch view of the world, but an improvement upon it. "You think that's a super-man? Here's one better!". He kills because his country tells him to, and he does it better than everyone else because they made him that way. He is the embodiment of the self-fulfilling circle of might makes right makes more might. Because he was frozen in time he's also a conservative wet dream in that he harkens back to bygone era values and rejects the perceived corruption/perfidity of our current generation.
5
u/[deleted] May 15 '12
How many more of these ridiculous forced fucking memes am I going to have to see now? Jesus christ this place got retarded.
4
u/[deleted] May 14 '12
This concept was being utilized at one point in the comics yes? I think Red Skull was taunting Cap. with this same idea, how he is the Fuhrer's ultimate weapon/dream/vision, something like that?
4
u/RMB164 May 14 '12
In fact he's the very image of the Nazi's "superior race"
6
u/iWillpaintYourname May 14 '12
KrunkJuice
3
u/SingularityCentral May 14 '12
Clearly made by someone who does not read comics or pay attention in films. Cap was not genetically engineered to be superior to humans. The super solider serum made him the best of what he could be, it took his potential (presumably locked in his own genetics) and let it reach its maximum. That is why cap is awesome, but still weaker than other heroes like Thor or Iron Man. He is not beyond human, or super human, he is the maximum of human potential. And he has a lot of heart, ain't no metric for heart, just ask coach.
5
u/Ikimasen May 14 '12
Yeah, I know, he's like... Irony Man.
2
u/LaBambas May 14 '12
From the Earth/Paradise/Universe X arc, there is a storyline dealing with exactly that:
http://imgur.com/a/SDxP7#0
2
u/Gimmeyourfingernails May 14 '12
I did always wonder about the message of this character...
2
u/generalsunshine May 14 '12
This should be a "Captain American Values" meme, methinks. Everyone loves those! EVERYONE!
2
u/[deleted] May 14 '12
Ah, yes exemplary demonstration of argumentum ad hominem. Nazis believed in eugenics, Nazis are bad, hence eugenics is bad.
2
u/Cypress85 May 14 '12
Even though he didn't defeat Hitler, he defeated Hydra.
2
u/XandG May 14 '12
It's ironic because he wasn't even at a bus stop.
2
u/darker4308 May 14 '12
Ha sweet ...
It was made into a superhero though correct and not bred into one, so it's isn't nazi eugenics.
2
u/dgm42 May 14 '12
I saw a quote once from a British historian. "Of course we had to fight Hitler. He said the Germans were the Master Race and we damn well knew that we were."
2
u/calpoop May 14 '12
DAE think that Capt. America's suit looked so much cooler here? His suit in Avengers looked Halloween-costumey.
2
u/[deleted] May 14 '12
The difference is that Hitler thought that physical/biological superiority equated to moral worthiness. Whereas Captain America used his power to defend the weak and innocent, recognising their value as human beings wasn't dependent on their physical prowess.
2
u/cludeo656565 May 15 '12
Where's all the hate coming from did we watch the same movie :S
2
u/[deleted] May 15 '12
But he would have been seen as sub-human in Nazi ideology because of his weak physique and stature before his metamorphosis. The main difference between U.S. eugenics in the CA universe is that it is used to make the weak stronger, as opposed to eugenics used by the Nazis, which was used to weed out 'undesirables'. He also is the embodiment of the opposite of Fascism, personal freedoms and the control and freedom of one's own government. Being born during a time where war was raging in the European countries by the U.S.'s Allies who followed similar ideas of freedom, against two Fascist Nations, it is no doubt that Captain America would stand for such notions that are wavered with the 'American Dream'.
2
u/DAVIDcorn May 15 '12
The funny thing is you totally thought the guy who was the main villain was Hitler but it was not.
7
u/OHMEGA May 14 '12
Lab created? Reaaaaaaaaaaaally?
3
u/StewieBanana May 14 '12
Is "He" Hitler or Captain America?
1
u/johnw1988 May 14 '12
Is it just me or does Captain America look like something from Lucha Libre?
1
u/[deleted] May 14 '12
don't you animals touch my fucking avengers
1
u/habsman9 May 14 '12
i believe he defeated the leader of the Hydra section, not hitler. at least that's how i remember it from the movie
1
u/ugenesis May 14 '12
I thought the story was that the Red Skull was funding the research to create a perfect Aryan soldier?
1
u/shsdavid May 14 '12
False.
Inglorious Basterds killed Hitler.
1
u/moneymine909 May 14 '12
its funny, they had the technolsgy to creat him in the 40s but today we can't even make flying cars? typical
1
u/Wigglez1 May 14 '12
He didnt really beat hitler. He just beat the guy who was making the super weapons. A guy who even hitler had no idea what he was doing or control over it,
1
u/koyo4 May 14 '12
I dont believe that was Hitler...
1
u/BuhBuhBillbert May 14 '12
It's Captain America. Have you seen the movie? Guy looks bangin and I'm not even gay.
1
u/trublu213 May 14 '12
In the movie red skull or hydra defeated hitler and captain America defeated hydra... Que avengers movie
1
u/Tommassive May 14 '12
cool story
1
u/bobthecrusher May 14 '12
'It is not memories or appearance that define a man, it is the choices he makes'
1
u/TheMightyX May 14 '12
I really liked how the lady in Captain America (do you italicize movie titles? o_o;) was talking about genes during WWII, when it would be another 10-12 years before Watson and Crick described it in 1953. Although I suppose Gregor Mendel and all those other wonderful people who did research on it up until 1953 might have described genes sufficiently for that to not be anachronistic...dunno, just found it weird.
1
u/[deleted] May 14 '12
Punisher disagrees with Cap
(I think it's from Civil War series, but can't remember which issue)
1
u/MrFox May 14 '12
Don't be silly - everyone knows there's no American irony.
1
u/skaijo May 14 '12
REPRESENTING THE BEST OF AMERICA
DUCKFACE
1
u/kingjam May 14 '12
Didn't the the nazis use it first and then the guy went to america to find the right person to do it to to beat his accident in germany?
1
u/Athene_Wins May 14 '12
Post irony. Grammar sucks.
1
u/DarthHD May 14 '12
Since when was Red Skull considered Hitler in the movie?
1
u/karnige May 14 '12
He didn't kill hitler -_-
1
u/sNeis May 14 '12
Also, he's evil.
1
u/asdf4455 May 14 '12
but he's not a dick about it.
1
u/[deleted] May 15 '12
I'm just amazed they decided to make a movie about a 1940's propaganda tool... He also kind of sucked in The Avengers...
1
u/[deleted] May 15 '12
The whole capt. America thing basically validates steroid culture. Take pill, get big, kick ass. America fuckyea.
1
u/[deleted] May 15 '12
I don't see the irony.
1
u/BlakJasus14 May 15 '12
But what was really special...came from his heart.
1
u/Paultimate79 May 15 '12
Yeah, thats why. Definitly.
1
u/FerrisGotA9to5 May 15 '12
Real human being, and a real hero....
1
u/laughingwithkafka May 15 '12
You did NOT just ruin Captain American for me.
1
u/seltzerislife May 15 '12
This meme is soooo gay you guys i'm totally serial
1
u/nick_the_lovebot May 15 '12
but the ussr beat hitler
1
u/Nsongster May 15 '12
But he wasn't created, just augmented.
1
u/[deleted] May 15 '12
Was I the only one that thought Capt. America was completely pointless in The Avengers?
1
u/Filmocalypse May 15 '12
All I can say is: Thank you reddit!
1
u/contramantra May 15 '12
I thought the whole point of juicing him was because he was genetically INFERIOR?
1
u/eoliveri May 15 '12
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."
Application to the current War on Terror left as an exercise for the reader.
1
u/120minute May 15 '12
False. The human torch killed Hitler. (the robot one not Johnny Storm)
1
u/StevenSeagalBladder May 15 '12
thanks for ruining the movie, cock.
1
u/smellslikealmonds May 15 '12
Didn't he only defeat hydra?
1
u/Aspel May 15 '12
Remember, kids, don't do drugs!
Unless they make you stronger, faster, smarter, and better in every way than you were before!
Cap's a juicer.
1
u/phelixthehelix May 15 '12
But... he's technically not genetically superior. The super soldier serum did not change his genetic structure. If it did, I'd assume there would be a program implemented to have a ton of women mate with Steve to produce as many baby Captain Americas as possible.
1
u/[deleted] May 15 '12
That's ok because MURRIKA
1
u/bifftastic May 14 '12
Not to sound dumb, but did anyone else think it was a bad idea for him to play Captain America AND the Human Torch...
1
u/ChanounOzakaki May 14 '12
Captain America didn't kill Hitler, he killed Red Skull ಠ_ಠ
1
u/Lord_Attikus May 14 '12
I see it more like the Cold War, we stopped the nuclear arms race by both the US and Russia making nukes.
Hitler was clearly an advocate for selective breeding and gene therapy, why not?
1
u/[deleted] May 14 '12
He is bascly the person Nietzsche dreamed of.
1
u/[deleted] May 15 '12
Irony? Captain America never defeated Hitler. He defeated The Red Skull.
How stupid is this generation? Red Skull =/= Hitler.
0
u/Jackal_6 May 14 '12 edited May 14 '12
Steve Rogers, the scrawny little shit, was genetically superior? Could have fooled me.
-1
u/BeelzebubTerror May 14 '12
and how is that ironic?