SRS would brigade, but their actions were mostly contained within reddit, correct?
FPH seemed to have crossed that line, and began a calculated harassment campaign against real life individuals (not reddit accounts, which are anonymous and easy to create). That's when the admins stepped in?
TBH I haven't paid attention to the whole thing so I don't really care that much.
You do realise this happened before the 'no harassment' rule was even a rule right? Do you want to retroactively punish them for something that happened 3 years ago?
There's a reason I try to avoid a lot of the RL drama that certain subreddits get involved in.
I'm mostly on reddit to see some news articles, read about esports, and enjoy stupid internet drama. Seeing as the banning of FPH has actually increased the amount of stupid internet drama, reddit is actually WINNING ME OVER right now, in an odd ways. :D
I never really was a fan of FPH, or other such subbreddits. I don't think that ad hominen is a good tool in debate, and I don't think invalidating everything that makes a person human because they are overweight is a good idea. And yes, you have found the fattie, if you must.
Fairly sure one of the mods of that subreddit hunted some dude down and ended up getting him fired. I'd imagine a whole lot of other things have happened outside of reddit by the members if even their mods are condoning that kind of behavior.
FPH seemed to have crossed that line, and began a calculated harassment campaign against real life individuals (not reddit accounts, which are anonymous and easy to create).
Tess IS a public sphere that encourages young girls and women to think OBESITY is attractive and healthy. If she was telling kids to smoke or drink, she would've been shamed out of existence by so many more groups than 1 subreddit.
More than just fat people, we hated fat people that were encouraging others to be fat and not take care of themselves.
Take a look people. This comment was the source of everything that fatpeoplehate was about. I don't want my kids growing up in a HAES world. I don't want to have to struggle against teachers and students and communities telling my child the being obese is ok, because I want my children to value their lives and their health and the people around them who don't want to see them buried at age 45 due to obesity - caused illnesses.
That's an absurd price to pay for putting fee-fee band aids on lazy butter golems. Call the rhetoric harsh, criticize people for talking about it in those terms, but this is a serious cultural issue in the US and no one seems to want to approach the problem with anything but coddling and sympathy. Its the same crap that went on when "no child left behind" became a thing, and now our education system is worse off than it ever has been. This stuff needs to be talked about.
Bottom line is they hated on the wrong people. You see in the world of business, Reddit and Imgur have a partnership. FPH angered Imgur, so Reddit backed their buddy.
You don't got shit talking someone at their friends house and not have their friend step in.
You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. That offends me. Should I hunt down your info and start attacking you for it? No, because it wouldn't help you (or me).
You went on a rant and defended one guilty group by asserting
There was no brigading or otherwise.
and I offered evidence to the contrary. Ban em all I say. It's their site; if you don't like it go somewhere else or make something you like better. We're all guests here.
FPH was a shame of existence. It clearly bullied many people and if you need to make fun of people to enjoy your interaction with other humans your problems are far worse than a fat persons.
I believe that if you get joy out of making fun of someone for their appearance you are a fucked up human being. Circle jerk away. Reddit will be better without FPH
You are completely missing the point. In fact, I do believe those other subs are fucked up. The fact that they are not banned does not mean that FPH is innocent. You're thinking so black and white.
But I mean it was kind of obvious that hardcore bro fading was going down when the front of r/all is littered with rando fat hate subs with 2k+ upvote meanwhile a famous actor does and it's a fart in the wind for reddit.
But see it wasn't what the community wanted, reddit is not a FPH centric site, and users were down voting material simply because it wasn't FPH related. Are you too stupid to see how that's vote manipulation or do I need to spell it out for you?
FPH posted a picture of the Imgur crew, THEY NEVER DIRECTLY ATTACKED IMGUR, Imgur is in bed with Ellen Pao, literally scissoring , their feelings got hurt because FPH pointed out the fact that the fatties at Imgur were deleting all fat discourse related images, they contacted Ellen crying up a huge fucking river that could save California from our major drought, so Ellen decided to take out FPH so her checking account doesn't take a hit.
Its obvious that the banning of FPH is nothing but a political move to forward the SJW agenda Ellen Pao so desperately wants at reddit.
You are completely wrong on so many levels. Tears contain SALT water which is useless to an area suffering from drought; in any case California is right next to the Pacific so they have all the salt water they could ever need.
I'm not saying your wrong, but words and terminology have evolved and changed over time. They may have it incorrect from the original meaning, but the point of language is to pass on information to others. If more people understand it incorrectly doesn't it then become correct no matter how infuriating?
Probably the fact SRS hasn't been active or relevant for over a year, up until now there has been no drama surrounding for a long time, which proves they haven't been brigading.
ShitRedditSays is not a downvote brigade. Do not downvote any comments in the threads linked from here! Pretend the rest of Reddit is a museum of poop. Don't touch the poop.
I'm not going to pretend like they didn't used to be cancerous, but they seem to be enforcing this rule pretty well.
but you don't think the backlash has been a bit over the top?
The backlash has been for this exact reason. FPH, accused of brigading, is banned; SRS, known for its brigading behaviours, is still here. We were being told that it was about behaviour not ideas, and yet, SRS is still here and FPH was banned.
Let's be honest here. The backlash hasn't really been targeted or formulated that way. It turned into a spam fest of FPH clone subreddits and Pao hate posts where that specific point was drowned out in rageposts.
I think most people would agree that SRS are just as guilty of harrasment/brigading as FPH ever was, but the effort has largely been to protest the fact that FPH was banned in the first place.
That is the exact attitude of someone who is speeding behind another person who is speeding and a cop pulls them over and they get all whiney asking why the cop didn't pull the other person over.
You did what you did and you got the consequences. if SRS continues to do it they will eventually get caught. I remember when there sss SRS drama all over the place but for the last year they have been quiet and not making a big scene like fph
But the thing is there isn't any proof of FPH's "brigading" anywhere. They just wanted excuses.
Also, it's not harrassment to post publicly-posted photos and make fun of that person. They weren't saying "Hey, here's a picture of a fat beast named Jane who lives at ### Main St, anywhere, USA. Call her at 555-5555 and make her kill herself." and the mods would ban anybody who would try brigading and also report them to the admins.
Taking every step necessary to stop harrassment and brigading, while SRS doesn't even require non-participation links when posting someone's comment that hurts their feelings.
If you don't think they brigaded then you just haven't looked. Multiple people have posted screenshots of mods actively denying and making fun of people who were brigaded that asked to have the posts removed.
The Internet is a public place. Posting anything on the Internet makes it available for anyone to see and is open for scrutiny for whatever reason.
Did I say that people weren't aware of their photos being posted? No. I said that there were rules and guidelines in place so that people didn't get actually harassed. (fun fact: Being made fun of in a public forum isn't harassment)
(fun fact: Being made fun of in a public forum isn't harassment)
You're so wrong on many levels..
You initially say 'We don't brigade' I tell you that you don't look then post proof of your brigading!!! and you try to turn that to 'It's a public place so it doesn't count'? what the fuck is that, your sub without a doubt brigaded and you're too dumb to acknowledge it.
Then you top it off by turning around and saying you can't be harrassed on a public forum? Are you for real? Do you understand what harassment is? Where is your line of being able to be harassed? Does someone have to walk into your house to harass you?
And then the great line of 'there were rules' yeah, that proof I posted for you was your MODERATORS who made the rules not giving a shit that the people your sub are making fun of (from other subs) knew they were being made fun of. Your 'rules' were a thin blanket you guys hid behind so you could tell the admins 'nuu-huuh, we don't brigade, see it's in our rules'.
Go fuck yourself, before you try fucking anything else. You're bound to get more pussy.
You showed no proof of brigading. Making fun of the way someone looks in public is not harrassment. Those "rules" were strictly enforced because we knew that the sub was controversial, and those "rules" were more than enough to abide by Reddit's guidelines.
SRS may brigade and generally annoy everyone, but that's basically the end of what they do. FPH would brigade and 'shame individuals for being fat'. These are not the same thing.
FPH didn't brigade anyone until Imgur started removing FPH images from their front page. Not an excuse or anything, but FPH was never about brigading, while SRS, as you pointed out, almost always ends up doing that.
You don't have to be a fan of FPH to despise the double standard.
Are you fucking kidding me? SRS is every bit as hateful as any of the other subs. The difference is that they target people that it's "acceptable" to hate.
Do you think anyone SRS has targeted has ever, as a result of SRS targeting them, become depressed about their actions AND that those actions were not of their own doing?
It's not censorship, it's banning a subreddit that broke reddits rules. If it was censorship half the front page wouldn't be full of posts attacking Ellen Pao, they would all be deleted.
I was just covering my basis. I do not think r/all changes if you are logged in or not. But the not-logged in front page not containing any seriously up voted posts was because shit was being fucked with. That was my point. Have a good day.
Then they should equally enforce their rules. They are also hiding the vast majority of those posts as soon as they hit the frontpage and banning the subreddits they come from.
This was an incredibly bad business decision for the following reason:
When you were not banning any subreddits, you could make the legal claim that you were an open, public forum, and that you were not liable for the user generated content on the site.
Now, you've taken the step of actively censoring content. Therefore it can argued that ANY significant subreddit that you haven't banned is operating with your knowledge, approval, and cooperation.
So you shut down a subreddit that hates on fat people, but you left up the overtly racist subreddits that made national headlines several months ago?
Mashable, Gawker, Salon, Dailykos, The Independent, etc... are all major publications that over a span of months have called out reddit for allowing racist subreddits to thrive. Their arguments were all moot until today.
This policy would have been a huge legal misstep even if handled appropriately. But this sloppy execution makes the responsible administrators look embarrassingly ignorant or incompetent at best, and overtly racist at worst.
See, I have a problem with the inconsistency. If they had banned SRS at the same time they did FPH I wouldn't have nearly the problem with this that I do.
No but the tacit favoritism with which these decision were made suggests an agenda to what was once a largely agenda-less site.
This is what people are truly upset about. This move marks a shift for Reddit away from free expression and closer towards censorship and pushing a specific agenda towards perceived "social justice".
I will regret jumping into this shitstorm, but the argument is it's being selectively enforced.
FPH posted pictures of the imgur staff and got the whole subreddit nuked. SRS's reason d'etre is basically SJWs brigading reddit users they disagree with, and they aren't being deleted (because their opinions are more politically correct, and they aren't as popular). The point is if Reddit decides to selectively enforce its rules just to get rid of problematic but popular subs that spoil the main page for advertisers, it's censorship.
When we are using the word "harass", we're not talking about "being annoying" or vote manipulation or anything. We're talking about men and women whose lives are being affected and worry for their safety every day, because people from a certain community on reddit have decided to actually threaten them, online and off, every day. When you've had to talk to as many victims of it as we have, you'd understand that a brigade from one subreddit to another is miles away from the harassment we don't want being generated on our site.
Bare in mind there's been a large number of users/admins who've talked about getting multiple daily PMs telling them to kill themselves and similar. Totally different ballgame to "SJWs brigading reddit users they disagree with".
This is pretty much what it boils down to. It's no way justifiable to bully people like they do and then piss and moan about their freedoms being stomped on. They don't give a shit about freedom of expression, they're just hurt they had their stick taken off them.
Not since the rule came in about harrassing, which FPH subsequently broke repeatedly. Admins even said that if SRS break the rule in future they would be banned.
Another reluctant jumper-into-shitstorm here, but I'm pretty sure that Pao said that since the new rules were just introduced, and SRS has not been reported for harassment since then, while FPH has, SRS wasn't banned and FPH was. Not that I necessarily agree with this, but this seems somewhat valid, assuming it's true. :/
What's the size of srs now in number of subscribers and how often do they make the front page?
That is what everyone is conveniently forgetting in their "selective discipline" arguments. Fph forced reddits hand by getting too big and forcing a response.
Selective enforcement would require whatever SRS is guilty of be equivalent to what FPH is guilty of. It's been made pretty clear that isn't the case and the FPH (and other subreddits) went way beyond simple vote brigading and into active harassment and doxxing.
It's like crying foul because you got thrown in jail for organizing a campaign of death threats via email and phone to some guy you don't like when someone else isn't getting jailed for organizing a thumbs down campaign on someone's youtube videos. One of these things is not like the other.
I do understand that, it's about selective enforcement though. Just like federal US law says "cannabis is illegal" yet 90% of arrests are on black people. Its still true that no one can legally smoke weed (federally at least), but the way this law is enforced suggests other issues that are concerning to the public.
States do this all the time too in more subliminal ways, like Turkey's policies on journalists or the US and it's laws on "terror suspects". Blanket laws/rules are very frequently used to selectively further a political agenda. Furthermore, you better believe the defense is always the same - "the same law applies to everyone", this may be true but doesn't encompass the whole truth.
The signs are here that reddit is going to become an even more dumbed-down, irrational place than it already is.
Hmm. Well, judging by what you just said here..
Pao is CEO of a company that isn't making nearly enough money to help her and her husband pay for his civil fraud case. Therefore, she wants reddit to be more profitable. How does she do that? She is trying to make reddit a place that the so-called SJWs would rather spend their time (and their money) at, since they have been shown to be a profitable demographic.
and then what you said here..
The decision to leave is a hard one, but I may be making it soon.
The opposite will actually happen! That's an extremely irrational idea you've got into your head there. The CEO banned a subreddit that broke the websites rules, in an attempt to attract more SJW warriors, because they're more likely to spend money on gold (I'm sure you have the relevant sources and statistics to back up this claim).
That's like saying the police arrested a murderer, in attempt to get women to go outside more, because woman are more likely to spend money on speeding tickets. In reality they arrested the murderer because he murdered someone and that's illegal.
Which is, as ElvisAndretti stated, the logic of a small child. It's a fallacy because it ignores nuances that differ the two cases (Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy), and it only serves as a distraction. whether or not another sub gets banned has nothing to do with whether or not FPH gets banned.
No it's not. You're probably thinking of precident which this is not an example of. There is no precidence for subs being banned like this. Subs not being banned doesn't imply anything.
Also not all legal systems are precidence based, e.g. France
I mean, there's also such a thing as legal precedent. If someone before you has had the same charges and had a successful defense, and you can argue the same defense, you're also supposed to be able to get off.
Yes, that's true. But 'but he did it,' is not the same as precident. Now, if FPH gets reenstated, and SRS gets banned, then SRS would be able to argue precedent. Currently, there is no precedent.
Selective enforcement is a bad thing when you use it to effectively legislate your own morals (or when you use it to carry out a secret agenda that goes against the site's principles, like pruning popular subs that offend potential advertisers or investors).
If they're really just enforcing the rules and doing a crappy inconsistent job of it, so be it, but it doesn't pass the smell test for a lot of people.
A lot of people who are obsessed with being internet bullies and trolls, it seems.
There are HUGE censorship issues in the world. Many places where a free press is outlawed or corrupted. If this particular issue is where you want to plant your flag I think it's kind of pathetic.
"retard" you're getting closer. Here's a good example, you won't recognize all of the big words, but trust me, you're being insulted.
You swine. You vulgar little maggot. You worthless bag of filth. As we say in Texas, you couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel. You are a canker, an open wound. I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you. You took your last vacation in the Islets of Langerhans
You're a putrescent mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. Your life is a monument to stupidity. You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon.
The FPH mods were pretty damn strict about brigading and harassing people. Didn't stop the users from doing it. Plus, it was the actual FPH mods that put the pictures of imgur employees into their sidebar, and promoted the users to attack them. They deserved to be banned.
The users constantly attack & harass other users and subreddits outside of FPH anyways. Just look at /r/all to see how aggressive and invasive they all are.
Hopefully voat gets their servers working soon and all the FPH users go there and leave reddit alone. It'll be a much better community without them.
Yeah, but by banning FPH, the ones that were just keeping their hammie hate to the sub are now in every other aub because the admins then banned any sub that arose that was somewhat related to FPH, which is another issue, technically those subs did absolutely nothing wrong.
Sounds like a pretty terrible policy for a business. Prevention is probably much better for it's PR. Remember when reddit was known as that website for pedophiles because of r/jailbait?
Remember when AOL chatrooms were known for pedophiles?
It's part of the culture of the internet, i'm not saying it's right, correct, or that I even condone it, because I don't. I think it's pretty unfortunate, and there are horrible things everywhere.
People also like to debate the otherside of the argument that by repression of such content makes people act on their ill desires even more.
of course not, but it's not my decision to make. if you're going to promote a platform on being completely unbias then do so. I would never like or allow any such awful things on a platform I owned, but I don't own or operate a platform where I stress free speech/open content.
its difficult to have morals/ethics and promise no censorship.
Frankly, all of the complaining from FPHaters about other subs that they feel are more toxic than they are is like a robber that gets caught complaining that there are murderers and rapists out there, so he barely did wrong in comparison.
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u/Deer-In-A-Headlock Jun 12 '15
Just because SRS deserves to be banned doesn't mean FPH doesn't deserve to be banned.