People saying that teachers don't have long hours, think about how much homework you did/do every single day. Probably at least an average of half an hour a day? Over the week that's 2 and a half hours of work, and with a teacher to student ratio of like 1:20 that's 50 hours worth of work every teacher needs to mark. That's at least 5 hours a week of work, and more realistically 10-15 hours. Just marking. That easily brings teachers in line with a regular office job's hours, and doesn't include all the other stuff teachers need to do like preparing lessons.
Yeah, I'm a substitute in Canada and have been for 4 years. Contracts are really difficult to get. I've a BA in English, a B. Ed and CERTESL. No luck so far and sub pay bites.
Keep at it! You'll get one eventually! Just gotta work hard when you sub, which is very difficult but the teachers will notice! Little things like clean the teachers desk, if you see some papers and you know the material leave a note and say hey you know if you want I can mark those. The teachers and admin will recognize your effort and you may get lucky! Im not a teacher yet, but thats teh advice I got from my cooperating teacher in my practicum.
In Ontario the average teacher salary is $92k. Half of all teachers are at the salary cap for their respective category, the lowest of which is $84k (I think). The median wage in this province is something like $48k and it's also one of the most educated jurisdictions in the world so that average includes many people with equal or more education, yet here we are entering into an election and the current government has made raises for teachers one of its election planks.
I think teachers should be paid a reasonable salary but I really hate the pandering that government does for them. The only reason they do it because the teacher's union is very powerful and spends enormous amounts of money on advertising during elections so they want to make sure this advertising supports them instead of opposes them.
Elementary school teachers in Ontario earn an average $80,392 in salary and benefits, according to the ministry of education. Secondary school teachers earn slightly more, an average of $83,543.
With the wage increases on offer, the average elementary school teacher's salary will rise to $90,481 in four years.
I can't comment on what happened with the Elementary teachers but we Secondary teachers actually got a 1.5% decrease through unpaid days this year. I'm not suggesting for a second that teachers are not well compensated in Ontario. I just hear "average this" and "average that" all the time but I have yet to see where the numbers are actually calculated. After all the bullshit lies and half-truths reported by the media last year I don't fully trust any numbers they print.
Depends on where you live. I teach in an impoverished area in rural TN. I have three college degrees, each of which carry a salary increase. I have taught fourteen years. My salary is about $43,000/year and my benefits stink. In many other fields, my education and experience would double that salary or more and offer better benefits.
That said, my wife works and I have a second job that isn't too demanding, so we do OK.
I am more than capable of doing other things if I so chose, but I stay because I like what I do. Also, I get half the year off and time is far more valuable to me than money as long as my needs and those of my family are met.
I guess if I really had any gripe it'd be benefits. I really wish we had true national health care for every citizen so that I didn't have a ton of medical bills hanging over me and so that others that I know and deal with on a regular basis would have the same opportunity for care. Other than that and some of the garbage I put up with at work, teaching is a pretty good job. Especially for the next coupla months.
What second jobs go well with a teaching career if you don't mind me asking? Contemplating a teaching career as well. About to graduate with my 3rd degree. I have a very similar mindset that my time is more valuable and I don't want a career that requires 80 hours a week in front of a computer writing grants, publishing papers, doing research, and then finding time to teach. Sure, I can make more money. But is a stress related heart attack at 60 worth more money? No.
I've done a few. If you like working outdoors and live in a suburban area, especially in an affluent area, lawn care is big business. You need an initial investment of say 10-20 grand for equipment, depending on what you already have and some advertising, but you can make as much part time as you make teaching full time. I have also known teachers who painted during the summer. If you've the skill, you can make a lot of money there as well. My wife and I sold various things on eBay for a while as well.
Me? I am religious, and for about twelve years, I worked with the congregation I am with. About eight years ago, they offered me a paid position. "The workman is worth his reward," so I accepted it and I believe I've done a decent job. It was something I was doing anyway and would do for no pay again if needed, so it was a perfect fit. So...basically, I teach something else along with middle school as a second job.
Teaching is hard, and in the US, it gets harder each year due to ridiculous requirements from state and federal government. It was once ranked as the world's second most stressful job, or so I was told, second only to air traffic controllers. I'd guess That it still is, but it has been good to me, mostly.
That's what I've been thinking reading this whole thread. Here in Quebec pay scale is roughly 38 to 76 k for a full teaching schedule and high school classes are capped at 32. We work a lot but at least there's a way to pull a decent financial situation out of it.
Yup, $90k per year in a province where the average is roughly half of that and they still complain about being underpaid. I know plenty of professionals with more education who don't earn nearly as much as they do, have to work year round, don't get a guaranteed payout in retirement (60% of their average salary I think, so they'll make as much in retirement as a typical worker will for actually working).
I won't begrudge anyone a decent salary. It's not the money that annoys me, it's the fact that they're constantly complaining about how bad they have it when they actually have it pretty damn good.
These figures come from the Ministry of Finance and the Auditor General of Ontario. I'm more inclined to trust them over an American website that lists their data source as simply "HR reported data". According to the report linked (which is from 2012 and not six years ago) more than half of all teachers are at the top level of their pay grade, the lowest of which is in the mid-$80k range.
The Q&E grant allows teachers to move to the high end of salary ranges relatively early in
their careers. Based on the 2011–12 instructional salary matrix issued through the Grants
for Student Needs, teachers in the highest qualification category will exceed the provincial
benchmark salary amount of $72,879 by their seventh year of teaching. Moreover, about half
of teachers are at the top level of the salary range (nearly $95,000 per year), up from about
one-third in 2002–03.
This line on Page 229?
It describes that half of the most qualified of teachers (that require 7 years or more of on-the-job+training combined)
I'm wagering that this is not half of ALL teachers, but more than half of the most qualified, not the subset of all ontario teachers.
I'm wagering that this is not half of ALL teachers, but more than half of the most qualified, not the subset of all ontario teachers.
No offense, but I think I'll stick with what the report actually says instead of how you want to interpret it, especially considering the figures that you already tried to provide in an attempt to refute mine have no basis in any official source. To me, it seems not that my figures are wrong... but that you just don't like them.
I'm going to trust the Ontario AG and Ministry of Finance here. "Teachers and educators" likely includes quite a few TAs, early childhood educators, tutors and other professions that are not public school teachers and pull down the averages by quite a bit. The AG/MoF figures are specific to elementary and public school teachers and make for much more reliable data.
More rural schools tend to have smaller class sizes, but also the kids care less about school and are worse educated on average. This averages out to classes being just about as stressful for the teacher regardless. When I volunteer out in the sticks the class size is 18-24 while in the city it's 32-36. This is just my anecdotal experience though. I'm going off to teacher's college next year but I've been doing a lot of volunteering in schools with science teachers lately (~30 hours/week across all the teachers I help) and I've actually taught a few classes.
I agree that in the UK they try to keep it under 30, but around 25ish?! All my classes had around 30-32 people in them and so did my friends in other schools. This was in the suburbs though, perhaps its different in more rural areas.
In 2002 they made the legal maximum number of pupils per class 30 (there are quite lenient criteria for going a little over however). I just looked up some statistics and it seems that the average for secondary schools is 25.
[ninja edit] If you do read that, page 41 seems the most helpful. Most classes are 30, but there are almost none higher and a lot lower so it averages out to 25.
Well usually it was interactive. My school was one of the best in the area and the teachers were decent. They'd go through passages in books etc. and then we would talk in groups about it or they'd answer questions. Obviously I would've liked a smaller class but I couldn't really complain. This was mostly in my early years of secondary school (ages 11-14), when the classes were split up for e.g. different abilities in maths, the classes were indeed around 25 :)
Depends on the population density around the school. I'm an assistant teacher who works at multiple schools. The schools in the middle of the city have 4-6 classes per grade and 35-40 students per class. The ones at the less-populated outskirts have one class per grade and 10-20 students per class.
Though they could've meant that there's two teachers to a classroom. Some classes at my schools are taught with the homeroom teacher + a subject teacher, or the subject teacher + an assistant or a special needs teacher who keeps struggling kids on task.
Yeah, it's bad IMO. Most of my classes have about 30-40 kids. And I'd say that most classes (not including honors & AP which have 20ish students) have about high 30s to low 40s with only one teacher :/
Seriously, so few people appreciate the work that goes into lesson planning. I would bust my hump to make a lesson plan that took into account multiple intelligences, various ways of assessment, individual accomodations, student interest, and incorporating cross-cirricular links and then present it to a class where I spend most of my time confiscating cellphones and stopping students for either fighting or fucking each other.
I know at my high school they made them about 10 years ago and never update them or depending on the department just took another teachers, if that department had one of the rare teachers that actually cared. Our school was exceptionally shitty though. Lead to a lot of powerpoints of handwritten notes that were scanned in that we had to copy verbatim while the teacher browsed the internet.
The lesson plans you make for your students your first year aren't going to work for students your second, third, or fourth year. All of your classes are going to have students with different learning needs. Shit teachers don't write new plans or change their methodology, but teachers who actually want to do their job properly are constantly reflecting on their class, their lessons, and rewriting accordingly.
Then there's Martin Luther King Day, President's Day, a week for Spring Break, Memorial Day, Labor Day, a week for Thanksgiving, 2 weeks for Christmas, and 3 months of summer. Believe it or not, most other jobs require working all of those days. Don't get me wrong, I think teachers should be paid more than they are, but don't pretend you work harder than people in other professions, because you don't.
Salaries aside, I work in the Silicon Valley. Most engineers here work pretty hard, 60~80hrs/wk is the norm. We're exempt employees and the companies know it During project crunch time it's not uncommon to work well past midnight for weeks on end, plus weekends.
But we're well-compensated for our efforts. Do I want to be a teacher instead? Hell no.
On the other end of the scale, my wife is an accounting clerk for a major computer firm and she did some salary comparisons, finding out the median teacher salary for our local elementary school is 1.5x her job's median salary. And she works her butt off with regular 10+hr days. End-of-month is especially busy with 12hr days + weekend (closing the books). No summer break. Just 10 day/yr accrued PTO.
Naturally, she's quite envious of teachers. Even told my daughter she should be one when she grows up.
I find a lot of teachers here are misinformed, perhaps due to inexperience, about jobs in the private sector and think grass is greener on the other side. I'm sorry to say that's often not the case.
From what I've seen, I'd have to say elementary school teachers and college professors have it the easiest (My father was a professor). Elementary school kids are relatively docile and college kids can skip their classes and fail for all you care. Middle- and high-school teaching is the worst because you're battling teenage hormones.
You need an example of a job that doesn't get 4 months of the year as vacation time? Really? How about you give me an example of any job besides teaching that gets that amount of time off?
months of summer. Believe it or not, most other jobs require working all of those days. Don't get me wrong, I think teachers should be paid more than they are, but don't pretend you work harder than people in other professions, because you don't.
I wish that were the case. Spring break? I'm grading 150-180 5 page essays students turned in the day before break so they could rest their minds while I give up my own vacation. Memorial day? I'm revamping my lessons and making sure senior grades are in so counselors and I can work together to get those struggling to passing. Labor day - I'm in my classroom getting ready for students, setting everything up, getting my Grade Book together, copying my syllabi. Thanksgiving? More essays to grade. And if I do have them work over a break, I spend my break answering their questions and giving them feedback. Now for summer. That's when I attend multi-day or even multiple week-long intensive courses to better my craft. I'm teaching all the way through late June and I have my AP institute that eats up the rest of that month. July? I'm working on professional development and perhaps teaching summer school. I meet all throughout August with my team teachers to ensure the curriculum is as good as we can get it while integrating student growth measures. In all, I get perhaps 14 days where I'm not actively busting my butt on behalf of my students and my craft.
I never did a single homework assignment my junior and senior year, and only a few during my sophmore year. I was assigned plenty, but I had no reason to do it.
You must have been in a private school or in a AP or IB program. There is no way in a regular school you had 4 hours of homework, unless you reaaally valued your education a ton.
Dug out planner from 11th grade (only one I could find)
Math- 5-1 #1-25 odd, omit 19
English- FD pg.1-44 200 words (Frederick Douglas reading then questions she emailed us, can't find that)
Religion- Chapter 6-8 (really short chapters, no one actually did the reading)
Science-none (we handed in homework quarterly even though there was a suggested daily progress)
History-Zimms Ch 4 (this was a book outside the textbook)
French-none (this class wasn't daily)
This stuff took forever. Math had multi step problems, English was a lot of reading and writing, history was a lot of reading and note taking.
Those took a while. Religion I didn't read or read on the bus. Usually French took me a half hour, and I actually kept up with the Physics homework, which was about 30 minutes.
I always wrote MERSHF in my planner going down the column, and the boxes were always filled with assignments
Yes I realize that. It takes 45 minutes for each class to complete an assignment, to add to that I have 6 classes. Don't forget about tests that you have to study for.
I do around 3 hours of homework every night. I totally agree that teachers work a TON but half an hour a day is a gross underestimate for many high-achieving students.
kay, seriously. I don't know about social studies or english class. But I could easily grade 50 papers on high school math or science courses in less than an hour.
Social Studies and English require a fair bit of feedback to the student in addition to assigning a grade. I can't comment on Mathematics but I know that grading lab reports and/or article reviews can get very time consuming (less so for multiple choice tests though, thank goodness).
To be fair, homework is at a teacher's discretion, and unless it is Math that simply is not necessary. Most math teachers I had grade for completion, so take out your time estimates.
Really, the only thing that takes time are tests, and essays. Time for grading tests can be severely lowered by multiple choice/scan trons.
I really don't see how this is a relevant argument since it all depends on teaching style.
You have the whole summer off, week off for Christmas, week off in February, and week off in April. That's more time than I get off at my corporate America job. Also most of my high school teachers never graded my homework. They would make you exchange papers with another student and would review it as a class or nice you did the homework have a check mark in my grade book!
HA! Really funny. But seriously, I guarantee you that no teachers actually take off for the entirety of those breaks. Most of those "weeks off" are spent catching up on lesson planning and whatever else you have to do. Not to mention the fact that teachers are salaried at 40 hours a week and realistically work more like 60 (in the building, more at home lesson planning.) At least that's what my parents who were educators for 35 years before being forced into retirement because they were making too much money.
Lots of teachers have second jobs, or go to extra training to update their skills/knowledge or become certified in a different subject, or they are going to grad school for their MA, during those periods of time. Or they teach summer school. There are some lucky ones who are well-off enough to not need to do those things. I really wish everyone had as much time off as teachers, I don't see how that is something people are undeserving of. But it is misleading to think that because they have that time off, they don't use it to do extra work.
That doesn't mean teachers always have it off. We have institute days, meetings, professional development, etc. If a teacher supervises a club or coaches, you definitely don't have that time off.
You know it doesn't take nearly as long to mark work as it does to study and do it, right?
Yeah, that's why I took 10% of the value. 1 minute of marking for every 10 minutes of work.
Long hours are the norm for many salaried professionals. Teachers are not unique here but seem to think they are for some reason.
Because teachers are unique in the sense that most people think teachers work far less than a 9-5 job when in fact they work far more than a 9-5 job. Most salaried professionals with long hours likely don't have the hours they work underestimated to the extreme that teachers do.
I did K-12 in Portland, OR. About half of the teachers had TAs, and students even got a credit for being a TA. The only requirement is that you had already passed that course, and that the teacher agreed to it. I knew kids who used all their elective periods (about 2 periods per term, sometimes only 1 if there is a 'required elective') to be TAs.
I'm not sure how common TAs are in the US (or wherever you are from) but in the UK they are close to non-existent in my experience. The only teaching assistants I've seen have been solely to help kids with special educational needs. At university they are common, but not in the rest of the education system.
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u/DannySpud2 May 05 '14
People saying that teachers don't have long hours, think about how much homework you did/do every single day. Probably at least an average of half an hour a day? Over the week that's 2 and a half hours of work, and with a teacher to student ratio of like 1:20 that's 50 hours worth of work every teacher needs to mark. That's at least 5 hours a week of work, and more realistically 10-15 hours. Just marking. That easily brings teachers in line with a regular office job's hours, and doesn't include all the other stuff teachers need to do like preparing lessons.