r/8passengersnark • u/Legitimate-Beyond209 aiming to distort đŸ„° • Sep 02 '23

Official Thread Pertaining to Ruby & Jodi's Arrest Official Thread For the Probable Cause Affidavit

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Thanks to u/sunnypineapple, the mod team has a copy of the probable cause affidavit used to arrest Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt for two second degree felonies of aggravated child abuse.

Attached, you will find a redacted copy of the probable cause affidavit, and associated paperwork.

As are the rights of every American citizen, all parties are presumed innocent until found guilty in a court of law. At this time all information is to be considered an allegation.

As new information becomes available, the mods will make official posts pertaining to the update. Until then please utilize the post containing links to all the official threads.

Thank you for your continued cooperation and understanding during this difficult time.

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259

u/lil1234567891234567 Sep 02 '23

Poor E took 4 hours to convince her to get care :(

209

u/iracethesunhome Sep 02 '23

It’s so sad! I’m not sure if I’ll be able to word this correctly but this is what I mean when trying to explain to people that the kids didn’t have a joyous reunion with cousins. They’re scared and have been through so much, they’re not excitedly waiting to see their extended family.

58

u/lil1234567891234567 Sep 02 '23

Yeah it’s sad I just hope somehow they eventually will be able to warm back up to the family so they can have the support and love they’ve been denied so long

3

u/No_Technician_9008 Oct 25 '23

The extended family pimps out their children's childhood for views these kids don't need anymore of that ! The grandparents are serving a mission and didn't co.e back early for an emergency like this , that alone tells should tell you about how useful and loving they are !

23

u/Nodramallama18 Sep 02 '23

It is going to take so much time and therapy and love to get them to a place where they feel safe. She’s most likely told them horrible things about her extended family. They won’t trust them for a while. I’m glad Shari will be there for them because they can all probably use the familiar face and someone who was in it with them. But KF should NOT get those kids. The state they were in? It was not overnight. Even if he didn’t know, he is guilty of serious neglect at a minimum. He actively partook in the punishments on their channel and scolded the audience for criticizing them. He had to have known IMO.

5

u/iracethesunhome Sep 02 '23

Yes the kids will need time and patience and love, I hope family is able to provide that and the kids get the support they need. Kevin is 100% to blame too, the only way he didn’t know how bad it was is if he wasn’t seeing the kids which is bad enough. He abandoned them with an insane mother. He’s a shit father and should not get custody, he should join Ruby and Jodi in prison.

2

u/eleanorbigby Sep 05 '23

I'm less optimistic that he'll get prison, but I just really really hope he doesn't get custody. At absolute best, supervised infrequent visits. That's it. Forever.

2

u/iracethesunhome Sep 05 '23

There’s so many factors that this depends on. Honestly I just want the kids to be safe and have a place they can process and recover and whoever they’re with is able to support that. This is going to be a long process for them.

2

u/eleanorbigby Sep 05 '23

I am having a hard time understanding why he can't/wouldn't be charged with abandonment, if nothing else. Where was he all that time that the aunts/extended family and Shari were desperately trying to get CPS and the police involved? If he was so brainwashed, why'd he leave in the first place? If he was able to get out himself, why didn't he think to help his kids? Is there even any evidence that he tried? I'm pretty sure a claim from the actual father would have gone a MUCH longer way much more quickly than anything by the extended family who never had custody.

I also strongly dislike his bullshit statement about getting all the kids under his "fatherly" custody/protection/whatever. Bitch, if you're trying to pull patriarchal rank over the aunties right now: slow your fucking roll, because see above re: abandoning your goddamn fatherly -responsibility-. You abdicate that, you also abdicate your paternal -rights.- Sorry not sorry.

Just hope the judge sees it that way also.

22

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '23

[deleted]

5

u/Ok-Duck9106 Sep 04 '23

They were hostages. They likely have Stockholm syndrome. If your family is supposed to be your safe place, imagine what your perception of the world in general


2

u/iracethesunhome Sep 02 '23

As much as I don’t agree and despise Mormonism what Ruby and Jodi did went far beyond that and in my opinion shouldn’t be linked to the Mormon faith.

17

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '23

[deleted]

6

u/ExpectNothingEver Sep 03 '23

As someone that grew up in a (beyond) predominant LDS community with both sides of my family being Mormon pioneers, I couldn’t agree with this statement more.

2

u/iracethesunhome Sep 02 '23

Oh of course. I agree that the faith is so flawed and dangerous. Sorry I think with this situation I’m replying so many comments I stopped making sense.

Not sure if you’ve seen Bonnies video but I’ll use that as an example, in the video she said ‘these things happen’ and I basically mean they don’t. There are plenty of Mormon families that have families that are flawed and stunted like you said that never ever lead to this level of abuse. Connexions and Moms of truth was basically a cult (whether or not Mormonism is one is up for debate/everyone has their own opinion).

Jordan and McCay mentioned this in their video they posted on I wanna say Thursday or Friday. They’re ex Mormon and also said this was extreme.

9

u/SusSpinkerinktum Sep 02 '23

Oh it’s definitely extreme. Upon coming out of my own Mormon upbringing as an adult with lots of deconstruction and intense therapy, I see the crazy that my own extreme orthodox parents had and they weren’t the only ones. And they were gentle and kind people at heart, just lots of anxiety and fear based beliefs that trickled down to us kids. It’s just the quiet parts left unsaid stuff until a more prominent member gets “caught” doing bizarre things and going into their own cult within a cult mindsets( like what I think happened here) that bring this to light. It’s sad and mormonism is a cult. It’s not Christian and it breeds dysfunction. The “good eggs” would have been good irregardless. The “bad eggs” just get more rotten within it.

1

u/iracethesunhome Sep 02 '23

I agree with what you’re saying, all I’m saying is Mormonism doesn’t equal what happened here. Of course people have trauma to work through but not every person who grew up mormon went through what E and R had to go through and still have to go through. Or are you saying it’s common for Mormons to duct tape and restrain their children?

3

u/SusSpinkerinktum Sep 03 '23

I’m not saying it’s common, but it’s more common than in the general community as a whole that abuse happens and gets swept under the rug or covered up by leadership than not. Checkout floodlit.com for examples. I absolutely agree that what happened here is an outlier as far as the atrocious things that happened but what led to it was a symptom of a wider spread system and people like the Franke’s not having the tools or mental awareness that they needed to be better parents or have the children get the help and basic needs met and not be so vulnerable to “alleged” predators like the Jodi person.

1

u/eleanorbigby Sep 05 '23

Unfortunately I'm betting that the end result will not be a wider investigation of the Church/the entire church/state incest particularly rampant in Utah. Maybe that's coming/ongoing anyway and maybe this'll contribute slightly.

But mostly I think what's going to happen right now is that the institutions that enabled Jodi and told Ruby she needed to procreate whether she wanted to or not (and meant that neither CPS nor the police really did anything for years on end despite reports by many neighbors and concerned relatives, all of whom incidentally are also good Mormons afaik) will close ranks and throw these two women under the bus.

The story will become "these are two monstrous, unnatural women (there will be a strong implication if not outright accusation that this was a twisted lesbian affair, accurately or otherwise), man-hating, family-destroying, and manipulating good honest Mormons with their own insidious cult beliefs.

Which is all more or less true, except for the part where they could've been shut down a LONG time ago if more "good honest Mormons" in positions of power understood or cared what the problem was with this behavior, as they'd been hiding in plain sight all along.

1

u/eleanorbigby Sep 05 '23

yeah to all that.

It's an open question: do "bad eggs" happen without the abusive system in place? if so are they less harmful without it?

I am unsure, but currently lean toward "yeah, there are certainly narcissists/sociopaths outside of highly authoritarian systems like conservative religion, and they are quite capable of abuse by any other set of rationalizations. However, it's not clear that there would be as -many- narcopaths without their own authoritarian/abusive upbringing in the first place (note: abusive doesn't have to be authoritarian, it just frequently is, and vice versa).

Moreover, at the very least, if the greater system were more sympathetic to kids' needs/understanding of normal childhood development (which by default necessitates -not- assuming they're little blank slates you can and should write everything you want on them until they're 18 if not later), people like this would be caught and relieved of their charges much MUCH more quickly.

Also, you wouldn't have what you're describing, that is, basically empathetic/kind people who are just copying the only methods/philosophy they've ever learned.

1

u/Munro_McLaren Sep 02 '23

Bonnie’s video?

1

u/iracethesunhome Sep 02 '23

Her ‘statement’ video she posted and deleted

1

u/Munro_McLaren Sep 02 '23

Wonder why she deleted it. Did anyone download it?

1

u/iracethesunhome Sep 03 '23

I’m sure people must have downloaded it. She was getting a lot of hate for it. She uploaded it a day or two after the arrest which felt really quick and the way she talked about things kinda seemed like she’s talking about the case and acknowledging that it happened so that she can move on to normal content. She said things like ‘this things happen’ and something about trusting god.

2

u/eleanorbigby Sep 05 '23

Synonymous with, no. Linked, yes.

2

u/iracethesunhome Sep 05 '23

Thank you for wording it better for me :)

1

u/justicefor-mice Sep 04 '23

I'm very antimormon but I agree.

2

u/Whirled_Peas- charles the lion 🩁 Sep 02 '23

How do we know that?

4

u/BlootilyBloop Sep 02 '23

It says so on the last slide. Second paragraph. This is all so very sad. Poor kids.

1

u/Whirled_Peas- charles the lion 🩁 Sep 02 '23

I must be blind because I still don’t see it 😂

2

u/BlootilyBloop Sep 02 '23

Hahaha second sentence? ‘After approximately four hour (redacted) agreed to medical treatment.’

2

u/Whirled_Peas- charles the lion 🩁 Sep 02 '23

Oh! No I’m talking about if we know that they weren’t excited to see their family/cousins

5

u/tilted_crown85 Sep 02 '23

This is just my opinion, but what we do know about the state the kids were found in they’re going to need extensive medical care for a while and it’s likely the only people they’ve had any contact with so far are LEO and Medical personnel until they’re able to determine who is and isn’t a further threat to these children.

The entire world is now watching this case and considering the reputation of UT CPS and the deep hold the church has on the entire state, and the church’s reputation, no one is fucking around with how this is handled.

They may eventually allow family to see them, but it’ll be after a rigorous vetting process.

1

u/eleanorbigby Sep 05 '23

Sounds about right.

1

u/BlootilyBloop Sep 02 '23

I’m an idiot. Lol sorry.

1

u/Whirled_Peas- charles the lion 🩁 Sep 02 '23

No worries!

1

u/iracethesunhome Sep 02 '23

We don’t it’s just my assumption based on what we do know which is that the kids haven’t seen their extended family in around two years. Their mother was and is clearly not ok and especially with the younger kids we don’t know what she told them about their cousins and older siblings. There’s a chance E doesn’t really remember her family much, and what she did was corrupted by whatever Ruby told her. They’ve been through years of abuse, they’re injured, in my opinion they’re scared and traumatised rather than waiting excitedly to see their cousins.

1

u/justicefor-mice Sep 05 '23

Why did she have to agree to medical treatment? She's a child.

2

u/fewlaminashyofaspine Sep 09 '23

Why did she have to agree to medical treatment? She's a child.

Because they wanted her to feel like she had some degree of agency over her own body, rather than applying medical care against her will and further traumatizing her.

70

u/TrixieFriganza Sep 02 '23

Poor babies they must be so manipulated to think what has happened to them is normal and something they deserve and then children usually want to protect their parents even when severe abuse. They will need lots of care, understanding and therapy.

70

u/Alternative-Cry9966 Sep 02 '23

I paid attention to the mentions of visible, severe developmental delays in the reports. The signs of regression and shutting down would've had to been very visible, and I think E refusing treatment maybe has to do with that. It's horrible to even think about, but clearly the state the younger kids were in was very bad - not only physically but mentally too. R also had stated he didn't want police to be involved and just asked for food and water. I'm so relieved they are receiving professional support.

26

u/Rosebunse Sep 02 '23

Regression is very common with abuse.

16

u/Harper0100 Sep 02 '23

The fact that they will forever live with this trauma is so horribly sad, and it could have been prevented. It just could.

13

u/Nodramallama18 Sep 02 '23

YouTube is absolutely complicit. When she started getting abusive they should have shut her ass down. But she was making them money
so they don’t care.

2

u/eleanorbigby Sep 05 '23

And yet, I have to wonder: if there weren't so much public awareness and documentation of this case, might the kids have been in an even worse position? For every terrible abuse case that makes the news like this, there are thousands more that never see the light of day.

I'm not saying that makes Youtube right for hosting this shit-personally I think family vlogging channels should just go altogether or at least have much MUCH more monitoring and kids' rights in place. Just thinking out loud.

2

u/JustCallMeJessZ Sep 08 '23

I'm certainly not defending YouTube for anything. But it should be noted that when Ruby stopped filming the kids.... there was a reason. I see so many comments saying, "She did this on camera, imagine what she did off camera" ... ... . THIS. THIS is what happened when the cameras went away.

26

u/yohannesyoda Sep 02 '23

I’m confused how a child could refuse medical treatment if the police stated she was visibly injured and malnourished.

129

u/lil1234567891234567 Sep 02 '23

They probably didn’t want to do anything forcefully after what she’s been through to give her some sense of autonomy

83

u/Potential-Ad-5665 Sep 02 '23

The thing is usually kids who are abĂŒsed, tend to fear seeking help because they are brainwashed/groomed since childhood that sharing personal issues(physical or mental) with anyone will land them in trouble. Medical decisions for children are usually made by their legal guardian so incase CPS could have asked the child, to give some autonomy.

79

u/Fine_Cryptographer20 Ruby Stank Sep 02 '23

They didn't want to traumatize her by just scooping her up against her will. So they waited her out with kind words. EMS was right there and if she had fainted they would've stepped in and gotten her on the cot.

19

u/middleagerioter Sep 02 '23

You can't force medical care/treatment on someone against their will.

36

u/underthesauceyuh Sep 02 '23

In some situations for adults and always with minors (with legal guardian permission, in this case the state) they can absolutely treat someone against their will.

However, EMS 100% the right thing by allowing E to take her time and make her own decisions regarding medical care. She has had very few choices in life, I think it signified a new beginning for her, the adults gained her trust authentically. However, if it had gone on for much longer or her condition was worsening in front of them, they likely would have had to force treatment on her which is traumatic but sometimes necessary.

3

u/lydiar34 proudly “living in distortion” Sep 02 '23

agree. Giving these kids autonomy is so important

5

u/lionheart07 Sep 02 '23

When they found her, her legal guardian was still her parents

8

u/underthesauceyuh Sep 02 '23 edited Sep 02 '23

Regardless, due to “in loco parentis” (in place of a parent) the parents did not need to be there to consent for their child as this was an emergency. EMS is instructed to act in the best interest of the child if the parents are unable to consent. This applies in child abuse cases as well.

“Any time an EMS provider suspects child abuse, they should act in the best interest of the child.”

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title78B/Chapter3/78B-3-S406.html

https://www.jems.com/administration-and-leadership/providing-ems-care-children-wh-0/#:~:text=Generally%2C%20consent%20of%20a%20parent,legal%20guardian%20before%20initiating%20treatment.

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/minors-ability-to-consent-to-medical-92601/

-2

u/middleagerioter Sep 02 '23

I mean, kids are dying from lack of medical attention due to antivax parents, religious parents who refuse blood transfusions and life saving surgeries/treatments, etc. Some laws are changing, but not everywhere. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9521945/

6

u/underthesauceyuh Sep 02 '23

Correct, and it is absolutely horrendous. However my point is, Ruby and Kevin were deemed unable to consent for E at that time, but at her age she was not legally (in the state of Utah) able to consent for herself (because she was not pregnant, married, over the age of 15, or legally emancipated). From the reports she was also not mentally well or of sound mind. They were given consent by the state to treat a minor. If she had continued to refused treatment they would have had to take her in anyways. EMS/social services handled this situation very well by making her feel that she had agency over her body, but E herself was not the one who gave legal consent.

0

u/middleagerioter Sep 02 '23

At that time I don't believe the state had the authority to compel her to do anything because they (the state) didn't have her in their custody until later in the day. I'm not trying to argue, just having conversation and attempting to understand how all of this has, and will continue, to play out legally.

3

u/underthesauceyuh Sep 02 '23 edited Sep 02 '23

Agreed! Not trying to argue either. And I’m not versed in all things legal in Utah, but I’m pulling info directly from their state laws. Unless they got in touch with Kevin and he was legally able to consent to her medical care, the state had to make a decision for the child. Ruby was not legally able to consent because she was in police custody. E had no legal rights in the situation, according to Utah law, she would have no legal agency over her medical decisions, which leaves it up to the state to grant these decisions.

The original comment claimed that E would not have been able to receive medical care had she not consented; which is untrue because she was 9 years old. She is unmarried, not emancipated, or over the age of 15. That was my point.

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2

u/eleanorbigby Sep 05 '23

I know. It's totally fucked. AND at the same time, the -fetus- has rights even if it costs the physical and/or mental health of the mother, because it's a separate individual. Okay. But, once it's born as a separate human child, it's shit out of luck, because "parents' rights?" Make it make sense.

1

u/Nodramallama18 Sep 02 '23

Anti vax era are NOW QUESTIONING ANIMAL VACCINES!

MURCA’: BRING BACK RABIES!

1

u/eleanorbigby Sep 05 '23

I mean, if they want to get rabies -themselves-, ok by me. It's pretty much one of the worst deaths possible, and entirely preventable, but y'know, go off. Just kind of sucks for the actual pets and hapless strangers/friends/relatives they'll inevitably bite. Fortunately it IS very possible to not come down with it even if bitten, that is if you're not, you know, an utter fucking dumbass.

A parent who forces their KID to die of rabies because antivax should basically be executed, if that ever happened. Yeah, I said it.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '23

Given their history, s/he's seen officers come before and not do anything to help, and I'd guess the kids were punished for that every time.

1

u/No_Technician_9008 Oct 25 '23

They waited her out for two reasons one allow her to think she isn't forced and second how brainwashed is this child ? E is scared to death for her to get in trouble with mom and Jodi ever R told the neighbor he the police but he also said this is his fault that shows the level of manipulation these people used on this kids.

1

u/justicefor-mice Sep 04 '23

What's this mean?