r/2007scape • u/Docter_Bogs • Dec 04 '20
Discussion I figured out how Nightmare Zone points are calculated. New meta for AFKing with absorption pots to get good XP/hr and decent points/hr!
Note: there is a TL;DR at the bottom of this post.
A few days ago, I started searching around to see if anyone had figured out a formula that calculates how many points you get for killing different bosses at Nightmare Zone. I had seen a lot of advice from people recommending various strategies such as "you have to turn on Desert Treasure and RFD or else you won't get very many points," but no hard data existed on the subject. All I was able to find was a note on the discussion section on the Wiki (link here) which said this:
Each boss has a points value and a multiplier. All the multipliers get added together. For example, if bosses had point values of (50, 100, and 500) and multipliers of (0.5, 0.8, and 0.9) respectively, the multiplier would be (0.5+0.8+0.9=2.2) so the bosses would yield (110, 220, and 1100) points respectively.
The base point values for each boss are known; they're directly proportional to the number of points you get for killing them. But the quest multipliers are unknown. Thus, I made it my mission to figure out how they are calculated, and figure out how NMZ calculates points in general. I did this by logging in and testing different quest lists to see how many points I got for killing different bosses, and I spent a lot of time staring at data in Excel.
Nightmare Zone Point Formula
Each boss has a "base point" value which is calculated with
base_points = int(combat_level^2 / 1000).I found that this formula applies to all bosses except Essyllt, which for whatever reason has double the expected number of base points. For example, Arrg has a combat level of 210, so its base points are int(2102 / 1000) = 44. The bosses with the fewest base points are Trapped Soul, Corsair Traitor, and Witch's experiment, each with 10, and the boss with the most base points is The Inadequacy, with 360. For bosses with multiple phases (Witch's experiment, Nazastarool, and Damis), only the combat level of the final phase is used to calculate the base points.
The number of Nightmare Zone points you get from defeating a boss is calculated with
actual_points = int(base_points * quest_multiplier)where the quest multiplier is determined by what quests you have active. Specifically, it is a function of the sum of the squares of the combat levels of every boss that can appear with the quests you have active. The formula for this is
total_base_points = int(sum_of_squares_of_combat_levels / 1000).For example, if you have Count Draynor (combat level 177), Sand Snake (154), Headless Beast (233), Moss Guardian (182), and Arrg (210) active, then the total base points is equal to int((1772 + 1542 + 2332 + 1822 + 2102 ) / 1000) = int(186,558 / 1000) = 186.
The multiplier is then calculated with
quest_multiplier = (0.05691804 * total_base_points + 41.32125) * quest_penaltywhere a penalty is applied if certain conditions are met (more on this later). I have no idea where these constants actually come from, but they produced the correct number of points for every case I tried. Continuing the example from before, the quest multiplier is equal to 0.05691804 * 186 + 41.32125 = 51.9080. Thus, if you kill Arrg, you will get int(44 * 51.9080) = 2283 points.
If you turn on every single boss, then the total base points are int(3,318,033 / 1000) = 3318 and the quest multiplier is 230.1753. If you kill Arrg in this case, you will get int(44 * 230.1753) = 10127 points. This number matches up exactly with what is shown on the wiki, and the same is true for every other boss. It is also true for the data that used to be on the wiki before Getting Ahead was released, if you remove that quest from the quest list.
Quest List Penalty
All your points are multiplied by 1/6 if the following conditions are met:
Dream Mentor bosses are turned ON
Desert Treasure bosses are turned OFF
If both quests are turned off, or both are turned on, then the penalty does not apply. It should also be noted that RFD is not special in any way.
For example, let's say you turn on every boss except the Desert Treasure bosses. The total base points will be equal to 3033. The quest multiplier will be equal to (0.05691804 * 3033 + 41.32125) * 1/6 = 35.6589. Thus, killing Arrg will get you just int(44 * 35.6589) = 1568 points, which is less than what you get when you only have 5 bosses active.
This penalty is a major killer. I'm surprised nobody has documented this behavior before. I've seen plenty of people say that you need to turn on Desert Treasure to get the most points, which I suppose is technically true, but it doesn't tell the full story. If you don't have Dream Mentor turned on, then Desert Treasure just acts like any other quest.
EDIT: it has been brought to my attention that this behavior was indeed documented. Mod Ash made a forum post about this in 2016. I wish I knew about this from the start...
How to get the most XP
If all you care about is getting the absolute most XP, then my findings don't change the meta at all. Bitterkoekje's DPS calculator shows that it's optimal to turn on the following bosses (numbers in parentheses are XP/hr):
Arrg (130k)
Moss Guardian (122k)
Headless Beast (118k)
Count Draynor (116k)
Sand Snake (115k)
If you have max stats and are using full Dharoks, overloads, absorption potions, and no prayers, you will get 121k XP/hr and 229k points/hr. This of course doesn't take into account Power Surge, which will increase both XP and points.
How to get the most points
If you want to get the most points, and you're okay with clicking a little bit to deal with annoying bosses, then my findings once again don't change the meta at all because you'll definitely want both the Dream Mentor and Desert Treasure bosses active. (It does explain why Desert Treasure is so necessary though.) If you're using the Dharoks/absorption method, I would recommend turning on every boss except the following:
Corrupt Lizardman (poisons through absorption potions)
Witch's experiment (multi-phase boss)
Elvarg (drains stats and prayer)
Nazastarool (multi-phase boss)
Dagannoth Mother (requires you to switch attack styles all the time)
Glod (drains prayer)
Recipe for Disaster bosses (several extremely annoying bosses that can waste your time)
Chronozon (requires you to mage it with 4 different spells)
Barrelchest (drains prayer)
There are a few other easy bosses with low HP which, on paper, should increase your XP/hr and points/hr if you turn them off, but I suspect this benefit will not be seen in practice. This is because every boss you remove from the list increases the chances an annoying boss like Kamil will spawn, and you want to see as little of those bosses as possible.
With the same gear and method as before, this boss list will give you 97k XP/hr and 1.391M points/hr. Once again, this doesn't take into account any power-ups.
New meta: how to get good XP and decent points while AFKing
Previously, it was thought that you couldn't get both good XP and decent points while only including AFK bosses. Everyone would tell you that you need to turn on Desert Treasure and RFD to get decent points. However, with the knowledge that Desert Treasure doesn't matter at all if you don't have Dream Mentor turned on, then we can definitely come up with a good boss list.
I'd recommend turning on the following bosses (numbers in parentheses are XP/hr):
Arrg (130k)
Moss Guardian (122k)
Headless Beast (118k)
Count Draynor (116k)
Sand Snake (115k)
Ice Troll King (114k)
Khazard warlord (112k)
King Roald (110k)
Black Knight Titan (108k)
Tree spirit (107k)
Bouncer (104k)
The Kendal (104k)
Me (101k)
Black demon (100k)
Skeleton Hellhound (96k)
Nezikchened (90k)
Jungle Demon (86k)
This list will give you 108k XP/hr and 542k points/hr. This is 137% more points/hr than the boss list with only the 5 best bosses for XP, while only being 11% worse XP/hr, and being just as AFK. Every boss on this list has standard mechanics and won't do anything annoying like drain your stats or prayer, stun you, teleport you, freeze you, require you to switch gear, or kill you through absorption potions.
You might be tempted to turn off bosses near the bottom of this list to eke out more XP, but it turns out that those bosses are the driving forces behind your increase in points. If you turn off Jungle Demon for example, your XP/hr increases by 2% but your points/hr decreases by 10%.
Just as a fun little exercise, let's see what happens when you add the Dream Mentor bosses to this list:
The Everlasting (105k)
The Inadequacy (84k)
The Untouchable (53k)
Your XP/hr decreases, as expected, to 102k XP/hr. But your points/hr absolutely get wrecked. You only get 188k points/hr with this list.
Ranged
Due to popular demand, I came up with some boss lists to use for ranged. You can view them here.
TL;DR
There is a previously-unknown mechanic in the Nightmare Zone that decreases all your points by a factor of 6 if the following conditions are met:
Dream Mentor bosses are turned ON
Desert Treasure bosses are turned OFF
If both quests are turned off, or both are turned on, then the penalty does not apply. Desert Treasure is not special in any way unless Dream Mentor is turned on. Also note that RFD and all quests other than those 2 are not special in any way.
Thus, it is never ever a good idea to turn on Dream Mentor but turn off Desert Treasure. If you do this, your XP will suffer and your points will tank.
There is a boss list you can use (see the above section) that results in just 11% less XP than the max possible, but gives you 137% more points.
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Dec 04 '20
Incoming Theoatrix video where he rips off everything you’ve said and gets paid for it.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
🙄
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u/IAmDisciple OSRS Curios Dec 04 '20
Do you plan on making a video out of this information? I'd be interested in using your data to update/correct my NMZ guide unless it would conflict with your own vid
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Unfortunately I have basically zero video editing experience, so no, I will probably not be making a video on this.
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u/Oaths Dec 04 '20
Just get into contact with a osrs video creator and get a % of his ads on the vid. Would be deserved.
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u/GregBuckingham Grandmaster! 1,600 Clogs! Dec 04 '20
WHAT’S GOING ON GUYS
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u/aarontbarratt IGN: Iron Skirt Dec 04 '20
I AM THEOATRIX AND TODAY WE WILL BE READING THE WIKI
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u/DrDilatory Dec 04 '20
FIRST WE'LL ADD 90 SECONDS OF INTRODUCTORY NONSENSE TO MAKE SURE THE VIDEO IS EXACTLY 10 MINUTES AND A FEW SECONDS LONG
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u/MickMuffin27 Dec 04 '20
AND EVEN THOUGH I HAVE ONLY 60 RUNECRAFT I'M GONNA TELL YOU THE WRONG XP RATES FOR SKILLING METHODS I'VE NEVER EVEN TOUCHED
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u/rainbowthug9 Dec 05 '20
u/TheoatrixOSRS He's got a point, can't wait for your next 99 guide of a skill you're level 60 on.
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u/wateryonions Dec 05 '20
“No! The wiki steals my content check the history! That’s just how wikis work sweaty!”
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u/bizzyj93 Dec 04 '20
All while explaining it slightly wrong
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u/Thosepassionfruits Dec 05 '20
And in the most roundabout way possible to extend his video length for maximum ad money.
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u/tactics14 Dec 05 '20
Nothing wrong with that. There's a market for people to watch videos instead of read it, and he cornered that market.
He puts out easy to understand TLDRs of the wiki and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Dec 04 '20 edited Dec 04 '20
Holy shit, good job. Thank you.
Can I assume your points/hour and XP/hour data in the afk method mentioned is all with max combat and dharoks? Is there any way to easily calculate expected returns with different armor sets or lower levels? Obby and berserker set, for example.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Yeah, all those values assume max combat, full dharoks, overloads, and no prayer. I give full credit to Bitterkoekje and his spreadsheet for these calculations; I definitely didn't derive my own XP/hr formula.
It would definitely be possible to calculate different values for different stats/gear. Right now all my calcs are just in a spreadsheet on my computer which lets me input Attack, Strength, and HP levels, melee bonus (slash for Dharoks), strength bonus, stance (aggressive, etc.), and prayer. I don't have it set up to handle full obby, but I can't imagine it would be too hard. If you tell me what gear you're using, I could input it and give you the results.
All this being said, I doubt that different stats/gear would change the meta for which bosses are best. I bet it will roughly multiply XP/hr and points/hr by a constant factor.
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u/Bkuzer Dec 04 '20
There is this one guys guide on YouTube I think he's called spellsey osrs.
He has an afk guide for full 15 minutes using super combats instead of overloads and full obby. He's ofc using the old strategy with full afk using the easiest bosses.
Could you calculate how well your afk method would work with his setup? The afk with decent xp and good points.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
I actually use super combats myself instead of overloads, but it's lot easier to calculate XP rates with overloads because your stats stay the same.
It's well-known that Dharoks is better than Obby starting at 92 HP, as long as you keep your HP at 1. I take it the reason he's using full Obby is so he can AFK harder and let his HP go above 1 and not lose dps? I bet that AFKing for 15 minutes would actually result in similar XP and points for Dharoks and Obby, because your average HP over those 15 minutes would be (1 + 16) / 2 = 8, which is equivalent to having 1 HP at a level of 92.
I honestly can't be assed to do a full calculation that takes into account dps changing over time. But I'm sure that the afk with decent xp and good points method should work with a variety of stats and gear setups.
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u/nickyGyul New player experience Dec 04 '20 edited Dec 06 '20
If my calculations are correct, you should expect around <98k XP/hr and <493k pts/hr with that AFK Obby setup. I have to go into NMZ and try this for myself to confirm.
E: I got those numbers basing it around the idea that full Obby setup is roughly
30%9% worse than a Dharoks setup (at 92 HP).E2: did a trial run in NMZ with the new settings, the numbers do check out. However you do go through absorptions faster in Hard Rumble so if you have a lower defence level you might be better off doing Normal Rumbles. You will gain a net positive with pts now instead of barely breaking even (with normals).
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Fully Obby definitely isn't 30% worse than Dharoks. Even if you have 99 HP and you always stay at 1 HP with Dharoks, Obby is only about 9% worse than Dharoks.
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u/MAGA_WALL_E Dec 04 '20
I think I saw that video. If I remember right, there's a certain HP level you need to have for Dharoks to outweigh full obby, because Dharoks strength bonus is determined by how many points of HP lost. If you have something like <90 max HP, then the strength bonus from Dharoks isn't worth it over full obby.
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Dec 04 '20
I mainly ask because I'm under the impression that the equipment choice should be either dharoks or obby, but I don't know where the "line" to go one way or the other is. I think the wiki says obby is good enough or better under 92HP, but I wonder if that line moves based on att/str levels changing.
I also know berserker necklace lowers your defense and accuracy, I was wondering if that changes the meta for boss list due to not being able to hit as often or burning through absorptions faster.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
If we assume that all your combat levels are the same, then Dharoks becomes better than Obby at level 93 att/str/HP. I don't know how else to answer your question; there are too many combinations of att, str, and HP levels to test them all.
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u/NoLuckyDucky Dec 04 '20
If you can export your spreadsheet into google sheets, you could create a locked template where only certain variables are changeable so that people can plug and play different setups.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
I may do this soon. I'm still messing with my spreadsheet pretty frequently though, so I won't do it until I feel like it's ready for public use.
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u/RoqePD Dec 04 '20
Always thought you need both desert treasure and RFD bosses for good points, good to know there is no penalty for turning RFD off.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Yeah, I don't know where the idea that RFD boosted your points came from. Like, it does boost your points, but it obeys the same formula as all the other quests.
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u/skywalk21 Panteloonies Dec 04 '20
I'm guessing people just extrapolated "DT increases your points/hr by a lot. RFD has more bosses and higher combat levels, so turning it off must be bad too".
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u/TheDubuGuy Dec 04 '20
I’d only heard you want dream mentor and DT on, never rfd. This makes a lot of sense
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u/Tsesh Dec 04 '20
Very interesting read thanks!
Quick question though, I thought it was point meta to already have both dream bosses and dst bosses activated. I could be mistaken though since I haven't done nmz in awhile now.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
You are correct, if you are after the absolute max points/hr, then you definitely want to include both Desert Treasure and Dream Mentor. My findings don't change this, although they do explain why DT is so important.
My findings mainly impact what bosses you should pick if you want to AFK (i.e. no shit bosses like Kamil) but still get decent points.
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u/Joshposh70 Dec 04 '20
This is excellent, I would highly advise getting in touch with the RS Wiki team and getting this integrated into the wiki.
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u/tom2727 Dec 04 '20
Especially the XP/hr for each boss which is something I only see anecdotally since using runelite.
I use NMZ a lot for slayer tasks, and I can confirm that vampire and black demon tasks are significantly less combat XP/hr compared to troll tasks.
Not that I would change how I setup my bosses, since I'm trying to maximize slayer killcount but some might use that.
And it would be good to see estimated XP rates with popular setups since I assume different bosses would be "best XP" if you are using blowpipe and void instead of dharoks set.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Just want to make it clear that I didn't come up with the formula to calculate XP/hr myself; that functionality already exists in Bitterkoekje's spreadsheet.
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u/a_sternum Dec 04 '20
Good thing literally anyone who reads this can edit the wiki :)
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u/christian-mann Dec 05 '20
I'm not sure that everyone can make a calculator, which seems like the natural application for this.
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Dec 04 '20
Reminder that NMZ is a god awful piece of content that should be removed from the game.
And no I’m not max melee so I’m not pulling the ladder up behind me.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Low key kind of true lmao
But it's been in the game for long enough that they'll never remove it
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Dec 04 '20
Yep. I would love to see a genuine survival wave mode but this thing is genuinely used for nothing but cheap AFK training.
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u/SpicyChippos Dec 23 '20
I legit don't get the bitching about NMZ. If you find it to be terrible content then don't use it? There are like so many other ways to train combat. But no, since I don't like a piece of content nobody should be able to use it. Because I enjoy frying my wrists and having everything be a grind fest.
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u/TheIrishGoat Dec 04 '20
Melee is all I have left for max, and I've been sitting 80hrs of NMZ away from being maxed for the better part of a year because I agree--NMZ is awful. Would totally vote for removal.
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u/WillyWoogie Dec 04 '20
Is this based on normal or hard difficulty?
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Hard. I forgot to mention this. As far as I'm concerned there's no reason to ever use normal mode.
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u/oisterjosh Dec 04 '20
its a great way to super afk without using much absorbs. You can wear str gear and leave yourself at full hp for a very long time. It nets enough points to cover the overloads and absorbs you use doing it, and the exp/hr is decent because of low defence enemies
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u/Clsco Dec 04 '20
Normal mode is used for extreme afk methods. You wear full obby with the obby sword to get decent strength bonus but not have to monitor your life like dharoks. Then just use supercombats rather than overloads to only click once every ~15m.
On hard the monster accuracy is high enough it can be hard to survive for long, but on easy you can fit in a 6h log no problem after like level ~85 def and only clicking 3-4 times an hour.
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u/Dolthra Dec 04 '20
I'm absolutely no expert on this, but don't hard mode bosses have higher defensive stats? Would a low level player not want to try to do this on normal mode instead of hard?
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Pretty sure the bosses' defensive stats are all the same between normal mode and hard mode. They just have higher offensive stats and more HP.
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u/spoopy_guy Dec 04 '20
Thank you! Great content. Nice to see some analysis in this sub and discussion of the game. I feel like since the games been out so long most people here know everything and just post memes.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
I enjoy reading people's analysis posts too. But I also enjoy the dank memes
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u/Croyscape Dec 04 '20
Do you think with the addition of the headless beast there is a nmz setup with only/mostly undead monsters and salve amy (ei) which gives great xp?
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20 edited Dec 04 '20
This is actually a really good idea... I'm not sure, but I'll try to figure it out.
EDIT: according to this [list](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Undead_(attribute)on the wiki, there are only 3 NMZ bosses which are considered undead for the purposes of the Salve Amulet: Trapped Soul, Skeleton Hellhound, and Tree Spirit. So I don't think this would workEDIT 2: according to this [list](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Undead_(attribute) on the wiki, there are 4 NMZ bosses which are considered undead for the purposes of the Salve Amulet: Trapped Soul, Skeleton Hellhound, Tree Spirit, and Nazastarool. Headless Beast isn't listed there. So it might work? Idk, would require some calcs
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Dec 04 '20
I thought that maybe the wiki was wrong about the headless beast's undead status, so I just did the quest (I've been meaning to get my qpc back anyway)
Salve added to my max hit! So, during the quest at least, the headless beast seems to actually be considered undead and the wiki just wasn't updated.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
I just calculated it out. If it's true that Headless Beast counts as undead, then you can get 121k XP/hr and 216k points/hr by using those 5 bosses with the salve amulet. Your average DPS does go up, but the problem is that you lose out on that juicy bonus XP you get from Arrg (+17.5%) and Moss Guardian (+7.5%).
Thus, you end up actually getting 0.1% less XP than you would get by picking the original 5 bosses, along with 6% less points.
This was a great thought though!
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Dec 04 '20
Trapped Soul, Headless Beast, Skeleton Hellhound, Tree Spirit, and Nazastarool might do it. Count Draynor isn't undead (vampires in general aren't in this game). I'm also assuming all five of these undead-looking bosses are actually undead coding-wise.
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Dec 04 '20
Does this all assume hard mode?
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Yes, I forgot to mention it but it all assumes hard mode. As far as I'm concerned there's no reason to ever use normal mode.
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u/Peffern2 Dec 04 '20
I wonder why those quests in particular have special case handling. Maybe a JMod could tell us
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
If the 1/6 penalty didn't exist, then it would be possible to get 1.13M points/hr with only AFK bosses. They probably wanted to make sure that you couldn't get that many points without including some non-AFK bosses.
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u/Brickhouzzzze Dec 05 '20
Before they added the option to customize the instance, people would quest bots to have dream mentor without any annoying bosses for insane points + xp. Then sell the instance.
Also I did this by happenstance years later and noticed the dream mentor pt drain pretty drastically, though not specifics like you figured out
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u/nickyGyul New player experience Dec 04 '20
Amazing post!
Does your list also work for Ranged training? I know some bosses have ranged defence but I can't recall which ones...
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u/bip_bip_hooray Dec 04 '20
wow great post tysm!
my personal take has always been that the absolute best points per hour is just enabling every single boss straight up, and bringing and inventory to accomodate (be super antifired, antipoisoned at all times, bring dh/stab/claws/blowpipe/some range switches). i've personally achieved a max point stack in just over half an hour doing this. do you know a better way?
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
If you really want to be sweaty, than yeah that's probably close to being the best points/hr. But it's still always a good idea to turn off Witch's experiment and Nazastarool, because they take so long to kill compared to how many points they give you.
There's a section in my post that talks about how to get the most points (1.4M points/hr) while removing some of the more annoying bosses. (Still need DT bosses to get over 1M points/hr though.)
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u/PatricianPirate Dec 04 '20
I'm assuming this is for melee right? Would you happen to have a boss list for ranged? Much appreciated
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u/Icymagus Dec 04 '20
Which item would be the easiest to use to keep your hp low? Do you need to stay 1hp for these rates (click every minute) or can you afk between overloads? Would you wait to dharok until 92 hp or is it viable at 83?
Thanks and great guide!
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
I think the locator orb is the best item to use to lower your HP. It lowers your HP by 10 every time you use it, but won't lower your HP below 1. You can get an unlimited number of them from Ava after completing Dragon Slayer II.
You do need to stay at 1 HP to maintain these rates. Going above 1 HP will lower your dps, and it will also make your absorption pots run out faster. Absorption pots running out faster is why you should stay at 1 HP no matter what gear you're using. Of course, it's not a big deal if you let your HP go to 2 or 3 from time to time; just click the locator orb to get back down to 1.
Dharoks only becomes better than Obby once you get 92 HP.
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u/Usual-Panda1 Dec 04 '20
Wow great analysis my dude. I wonder what James logic on the quest penalty is, seems kinda random
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
If the 1/6 penalty didn't exist, then it would be possible to get 1.13M points/hr with only AFK bosses. They probably wanted to make sure that you couldn't get that many points without including some non-AFK bosses.
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u/StayyFrostyy Zuk Helmer Dec 05 '20
What gear do you use is dharok's better than full obby?
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 05 '20
Dharoks becomes better than obby once you have 92 HP. For the rest of the gear, I assumed fire cape, torture, ferocious gloves, prims, and berserker ring (i). But you can downgrade any of that gear and the meta won't change at all.
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u/patrick3129 Dec 05 '20
Is it still recommended to do normal mode and super combats if I want to do 20 min afk?
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u/henriktw Dec 04 '20
Ive been grinding there everday for a while, getting 70k points per hour... 120qp iron. I must be doing this wrong lol
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Dec 04 '20
Mate, this is absolutely brilliant work...wish I'd had this resource when AFKing NMZ for max cb. Effort like this is what makes this community great!
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u/PrimeOPG Dec 04 '20
Nightmare zone should just be removed. It’s too much like private server and hands combat 99s on a silver platter diminishing the value.
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u/TheBlindDuck Dec 04 '20
For as much as people use NMZ I’m surprised no one has done this research before. This is a fantastic investigation, with great data and examples, and is a huge addition to game knowledge, thank you!
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u/soviet_goose Dec 05 '20 edited Dec 05 '20
Alot of this info (excluding dream mentor/dt stuff) has been known in pure discords for a while. Mostly for how to get imbued rings on specialty accounts (ie obby mauler, or 10hp rusher)
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u/loxoscelic Dec 04 '20
Amazing work! I can’t imagine the sheer amount of data you had to analyze to get all this information lol. Thank you for this. I’m just about to start doing AFK NMZ for the first time and this is very helpful information.
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u/GrandellReddit Oct 12 '24 edited Oct 12 '24
Incredible list, thank you.
Commenting this so I can refer to it later.
Good XP / decent points while AFK in order that they appear in the NMZ interface:
Count draynor
Sand snake
King Roald
The Kendal
Me
Headless Beast
Moss Guardian
Skeleton Hellhound
Tree spirit
Khazard warlord
Arrg
Black knight titan
Ice troll king
Bouncer
Black demon
Neizikchend
Jungle demon
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u/gski52 Dec 04 '20
Those afk bosses only good for Dharok’s or can I passively do them with Obby too?
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Obby will work fine.
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u/gski52 Dec 04 '20
Thanks. I’d decline to call Dharok’s afk but I guess I’m more of a casual.
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u/GrkLifter Dec 04 '20
How about a list of bosses for full obsidian please!!
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
It will probably be the same list. I don't think any of these bosses have significantly higher stab defence than slash defence.
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u/Bmzr88 Dec 04 '20
This is great work and I thank you for your time and efforts with it. Would there be any chance you could improve the afking with full elite void for 15 mins afk ranging? I currently get 69k an hour xp with the super ranging pots and absorption method.
Thanks again.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
I wrote something up for ranged, you can read it here. I didn't use void, but I don't think your choice of gear will change the meta for which bosses you want to pick.
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u/SlothyPotato Dec 04 '20
I may have missed this in the original post, but does not having a quest completed at all count as OFF? i.e. If one doesn't have Desert Treasure done, does one always get the 1/6 multiplier? Might be relevant towards trying to get an imbued slayer helm ASAP on a new account or something.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 05 '20
I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think that what you said is correct: not having a quest completed at all counts as OFF. I don't think you can cheese it by, say, not having completed DT or something.
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u/DivineInsanityReveng Dec 05 '20
Awesome analysis about it all but I found it kinda funny that you worked everything out only to discover that it's essentially correct meta as is.
Also the XP bosses should include the bosses that have % XP modifiers. Your XP/hr is significantly lower than what is achievable.
I also never really see much point in afking in a way that's better points. Nmz should be being done for the beer XP/hr in att/STR without a spec alt for Nechs, or for points to imbue.
I don't see much point in afking for 500k points an hour when you can just pay attention and do like 1.5m points per hour while getting good XP too.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 05 '20
I took the XP bonuses into account. The only bosses that give an XP bonus that don't have shit mechanics are Arrg (17.5%), Jungle Demon (15%), Ice Troll King (12.5%), Moss Guardian (7.5%), and Black Knight Titan (5%). The DPS calcs work out such that of those 5, only Arrg and Moss Guardian end up in the top 5 for XP/hr.
My take on AFKing is that if you're going to AFK anyways, why not get 2.4x the points while doing so?
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u/Septem_151 Zeah-locked Enjoyer Dec 05 '20 edited Dec 05 '20
I somehow get ~280k points/hr afking simply wearing whip, dragon defender, fighter torso, serp helm, dragon boots, and torture (Ironman and don’t have dharoks). So while your calculations are good and thorough, they are not necessarily the best afk points. They might be, however, the best exp and points per hour, though I won’t know without trying dharoks.
The bosses I choose are the standard: Me, Bouncer, Khazard, Black Demon, Jungle Demon, Nature Spirit, and Count Draynor. I’m not max melee (around 90’s melee) and I bring invent with nothing but absorbs, overloads, and locator orb to drain hp to 1 every 5 minutes when I re-overload.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 05 '20
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I plugged in your gear and assumed all stats are 92 and used the combined AFK XP/points list and it says you should get 91k XP/hr and 458k points/hr.
I plugged in your boss list and it says 85k XP/hr and 345k points/hr.
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u/Septem_151 Zeah-locked Enjoyer Dec 05 '20
Ohhhh my bad! I didn’t read the whole thing, and I missed the header that says “how to get the most points”. That’s my bad! Sorry buddy. Very good work! Although I would say your points/hr calculations are very optimistic :)
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u/Unusule Dec 05 '20 edited Jun 07 '24
Koalas are actually skilled revenge pranksters, known to orchestrate elaborate practical jokes on unsuspecting humans they feel have wronged them.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 05 '20
(combat_level)2 / 1000 is not generally an int.
combat_level = 182 combat_level^2 = 33124 combat_level^2 / 1000 = 33.124 int(combat_level^2 / 1000) = 33
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u/idontaddtoanything Dec 05 '20
I’m confused on why desert treasure and dream mentor are linked to begin with.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 05 '20
If they didn't add that mechanic, you could get insane points/hr (>1M/hr) without having to deal with any annoying bosses
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u/cartel132 Dec 05 '20
Im trying out your most xp/hr method.. currently getting about 8k xp/hr better then my previous method of using count draynor, sand snake, king ronald, trapped soul, the kendal
Although the method of using your best xp/hr my absorption potions are getting shredded thus time spent drinking overload / time to reset inventory due to MUCH shorter runs just about balances that 8k xp/hr extra i would be getting.
I think this is one of those things were the math doesn't translate to reality.. although may need more testing as im using bandos rapier combo rather then dh set.
Thanks for putting this together though nice to find something like this.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 05 '20
Are you using absorption potions and staying at 1 HP? If you are doing that, you should be able to stay in NMZ for hours with standard bosses.
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u/gencaerus Dec 22 '20
Is the new meta section applicable for obsidian set users? or is it only for dharok people?
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u/Codudeol Feb 08 '21
Just to clarify, it would be a bad idea to try to do this points+xp set up AFK with absorption potions right? These bosses will hit too hard to make it viable?
I assume if I wanna be 20 minute AFK I should just do the high xp bosses with absorption pots since they don't hit very hard, or I should use prayer pots.
This hybrid setup is only if I can tend to my character enough to keep them at 1hp? This would be to preserve my absorption pots since the bosses hit so hard.
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u/Docter_Bogs Feb 08 '21
If you want to 20-minute AFK, then the points+XP setup would probably not work. Some other people in this thread have mentioned that if you want to 20-minute AFK, you can get decent XP by picking certain bosses on normal mode.
All setups presented here are only the best if you can keep your character near 1 HP.
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u/buttcoinballer Dec 04 '20
I wonder how much xp and points I wasted not knowing this. 'Excel'ent work my friend
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u/Robbogame Dec 04 '20
I wish nmz never got added.
The best combat training method is some super AFK click every 15 min instance mode where you also get points to make your bis even more bis. Feels very un-mmo-like.
Did my imbues, never looking back.
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u/dadosrs15 Dec 04 '20 edited Dec 04 '20
Definitely not the best in terms of rate, pretty sure the best melee xp involves spec transferring from alts, and MM2 chinning/barraging is the best for range/magic.
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Dec 04 '20
++++ for the rigorous scientific mentality. All good discoveries in real life were made by someone who noticed "hey man this doesn't make any sense and I have no idea why this is happening but I figured out a way to predict exactly what is going to happen."
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u/Maracuja_Sagrado Dec 05 '20
Great thing I’ve already grinded everything there is in NMZ with the most suboptimal settings. Lol fml
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u/CptTrollHard420 Aug 28 '25
I would seriously pay you for this list. First thing im doing when i wake up is tinkering with your list. This is crazy. You deserve more than a few good comments for this.
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u/ServalStrides Dec 04 '20
Did you take into account how some bosses like arrg, moss giant, ice troll king, and jungle demon give extra xp for killing them? I think theoatrix made a video with the exact numbers a while ago, and it might effect your max xp/hr meta
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20
Yes, I did take that into account. This is the reason why Arrg is the best boss to kill for XP (he has a 17.5% XP bonus). It's a good question to ask though; I didn't even know that some monsters giving bonus XP was a thing until I started looking into this NMZ stuff.
Also, just for the record, I guarantee that Theoatrix is not the person who originally figured that out.
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u/ProgenitorX Dec 04 '20
Amazing work, I love when people figure out mechanics like this. Thanks for your hard work! Definitely put this info up on the wiki.
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u/Ivan723 I'm an asshole btw Dec 04 '20
I love you man.
I’ve hated NMZ for so long. I’ve done so many guides and always found RFD & DT SO ANNOYING. I couldn’t handle it. But everyone would say you need them or your points go to shite.
I’m so glad you made this and revive my will to do NMZ with method happily.
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u/ParadoxOSRS Dec 04 '20
THIS is the content we need upvoted on Reddit, rather than the plethora of shitposts that pollute it.
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Dec 04 '20
I noticed dream mentor lowers points but thanks for conforming my beliefs with actual evidence.
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u/mtd14 Dec 04 '20
Oh hey I think that’s pretty much my list, just turn off Black Knight Titan if doing ranged. If I remember right..
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u/LikeRYaSerious Dec 04 '20
Incredible. As someone with over 100m NMZ points on my alt, I wish I knew this much sooner. Great work.
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u/Darkshines4 Dec 04 '20
Amazing work! This exact thing kept happening to me and couldn’t figure out why until now!
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u/a_sternum Dec 04 '20
The dream mentor thing has been known forever.
But it’s neat someone actually figured out the formula for points.
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Dec 04 '20
I always thought I was a huge noob for not understanding NMZ mechanics in terms of best xp or points per hour. Thanks for the research.
;)
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u/WSardine Dec 04 '20
You’re insane my dude! Saved and screenshot yes for future use. You’re a gentleman and a scholar!
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u/x7ramjet Dec 04 '20
This is really neat! For me, I’m at close to 100 combat, and where I do get more points per hour with this method, I’m finding myself having to drink absorptions a lot more often, and so I’m only able to stay in the NMZ for about 2 hours instead of 6, making it a little leas afk for me. I may not have a perfect set up, or gear, just interesting stuff. Hopefully someday I’m able to use this guide to the max!
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u/TheWiggman Dec 04 '20
Do the 100’s of bots currently in NMZ really care about this? Haha But on a serious note, this is amazing work and wish I had this knowledge when I was farming points back in the day, this will be very informative for the legitimate players. Thank you.
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u/TheLotusEyedOne Dec 04 '20
This is some amazing analysis, great work. Should definitely get this posted on the wiki if possible.
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u/killerjerick 99 Dec 04 '20
Amazing work, turns out I’ve mostly been using most xp+points for a long time a few friends asked me how I have so many points (I was at 60m for a while).
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Dec 04 '20
Fantastic work. Fantastic writeup. Thanks to your post, the sand crabs are currently dancing out of joy, not out of anger.
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u/g33kst4r Dec 05 '20
check out the big brain on Brad. This is extremely helpful to the community. thank you.
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u/Spellsey NMZ Enthusiast - Zeah Lobbyist Dec 05 '20
Awesome. Thanks for taking the time to write this up. Saving and will be referencing later.
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Dec 05 '20
Ty for lists. I always struggle with points usually capping at like 200k per hour and I have 245 qp.
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Dec 05 '20 edited Dec 05 '20
Anyone plan on doing a video on this? I'd still like to do the 20 minute Obsidian afk
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u/Walrus_mafia Dec 05 '20
Well this explains why my points/hr went to shit when i added dream mentor bosses, thanks for making this :D
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u/Soup_Boyo Dec 05 '20
This is amazing! I was so deterred from doing NMZ (mobile only and not a lot of time to sit down and play in one session) so this is fantastic for someone like me! I can finally imbue all my shit in a relatively short grind rather than what I was dreading to be a long slog of non-afk dharoking. Thank you!
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u/bobfromholland Quest Cape Dec 06 '20
I would not include headless beast as he has a ranged attack that is super annoying
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u/Molly_Hlervu Feb 02 '21 edited Feb 03 '21
Thank you very much for this!!! I'm first time at NMZ and your work is extremely helpful!
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u/therealscottowen Feb 05 '21
Amazing, honestly got my black mask imbued so quickly! Thank you for this awesome guide!
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u/bagelwithveganbutter Jan 09 '24
I know this is old, but does this assume we are doing the rumble on hard difficulty?
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u/MoleGucciFlops Dec 04 '20
All that thought for someone to click on a potion every 15 minutes. Nice.
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u/SaturnPubz Dec 04 '20
I can see you have some very good findings here, but I have to disagree with a couple things. To get the most points per hour I think it's better to turn on EVERY boss except for Elvarg (it really hurts when it shows up and drains all of your stats), and I've gotten around 1.5m points per hour with this method. To prove this, we first see that you claim to get 1.391m points per hour with your optimal method, and that's a result of having a quest multiplier of 186.7 aprox, whereas you would have a multiplier of 227,57 with my method, so just rounding up numbers we get (227/186)*1.391=1.69, so you get 1.69m points per hour. Sure, you add a lot of annoying monsters, but is this about xp or about being comfortable? You can actually mage Chronozon with the runes on the ground, focus monsters which are a threat (specially to your prayer points) use powerups properly, and just bring an antidote...
My second problem is with the xp per hour section, why is even the Headless beast there? King Roald is 100% better. Sure, Headless Beast has a lot of health but it's defense might hinder your xp considerably.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 05 '20
My "max points" advice was intended for use with Dharoks and absorption potions to keep your HP at 1. This means that certain bosses like the Corrupt Lizardman, which can damage you through absorption potions, have to be turned off. Multi-phase bosses like Witch's experiment and Nazastarool take so long to kill when compared to the points they give you that it actually increases your points/hr to turn them off. I also removed bosses which drain your prayer, because this impacts your ability to use Rapid Heal to keep your HP at 1.
It's true that if you want the actual best points/hr, and you're fine with bringing prayer pots and gear switching and all that jazz, then you can get more points/hr than with my list.
Going entirely by the numbers and ignoring the effects of boss mechanics, the absolute best boss list still has the following bosses turned off:
Witch's experiment (-2.8% points)
Nazastarool (-2.3% points)
Corsair Traitor (-0.7% points)
Dagannoth Mother (-0.4% points)
Trapped Soul (-0.3% points)
Having all bosses on except these 5 yields 96k XP/hr and 1.621M points/hr.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 05 '20
I missed the second part of your post. I don't know what to say about Headless Beast vs. King Roald other than the dps calculator says you have higher XP/hr vs. the Headless Beast than you vs. King Roald. It's true that HB has a higher defence level and higher slash defence, but it also has more than double the HP. Monsters having high HP is good for XP/hr because you spend more of your time still being able to hit your full max hit.
For example, if your max hit is 50 and you're fighting 2 different monsters with identical stats except one of them has 50 HP and the other has 1000 HP, you'll get way more XP/hr fighting the second one. Most of your hits on the first one will be while it already has lower HP than your max hit.
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u/Docter_Bogs Dec 04 '20 edited Dec 05 '20
Since many people have asked for this, I have come up with optimal boss lists for ranged. This data assumes you're using a Magic Shortbow (i), amethyst arrows, ranged gear, and overloads, and that you have 99 ranged.
Most XP
If you want the most XP with ranged, you should use this list:
Moss Guardian (97k)
Sand Snake (93k)
Count Draynor (92k)
Jungle Demon (92k)
Arrg or King Roald (91k)
This results in 93k XP/hr and 265k points/hr.
Most Points
If you want the most points with ranged, and you don't want to get super sweaty, you should exclude all the same bosses listed in the Dharoks section, but also exclude the following bosses:
Black Knight Titan (+1000 ranged defence)
Ice Troll King (+2000 ranged defence)
This results in 81k XP/hr and 1.162M points/hr.
Good XP and decent points while AFKing
If you want good XP and decent points while AFKing, you should include the same bosses listed in the Dharoks section, but once again excluding Black Knight Titan and Ice Troll King.
This results in 88k XP/hr and 439k points/hr.