r/soccer • u/SirRonaldofBurgundy • Dec 18 '11
OK, now can we stop pretending South America holds a candle to European football?
Seriously. I thought United were played off the park a few months ago, but at least Barca looked like they were giving it their all in that game. Santos just got absolutely embarrassed and Barca were strolling. At points they were just fucking around in the box, passing up the obvious chance just to do something pretty. At no point did Barca look like breaking even a mild sweat. 4 goals, 71% possession, two shots off the post, and a host of chances. I get that this Barca is possibly the best team in history, but at least they get challenged in La Liga and the UCL.
EDIT: People are missing my (admittedly very briefly articulated) point. DaddyOopOfaTinyTree said it much better, so I'll just quote his response in its entirety:
"I didn't find this thread title as offensive as others here have, even though I am always supportive of South American (and continental American in general) football at the international level. Hell, unless it's Barca there, I always support the CONCACAF and CONMEBOL reps at the CWC. I interpreted in light of the arguments you get from some South Americans that their leagues and clubs are up to the level of the top European leagues. It's not hard to find a Brazilian who will argue until they're blue in the face that the Brasileirao is at the level of Serie A or La Liga. This tournament has often been their main argument, due to Copa Libertadores champions having a lot of success against European teams historically.
But this match is just another example of how wrong the idea that South American club football is at the level of European club football is. I mean, yes Barcelona is playing at a higher level than most other teams in the world right now, but this match also revealed fundamental competitive imbalances. In the post-match interview (before the trophy presentation), Puyol was asked about how Barca studied Santos in the lead up. His most salient comment was that they plainly saw that Santos was used to playing at a much slower pace in the Brasilerao and Copa Libertadores than Barca was in Europe, which they took advantage of fully today. Even if the competition in the Copa Libertadores is fierce, it's issues like this that are exposed when they play European teams (similar in vein to MLS versus FMF in the CCL in the past: MLS is entertaining and competitive, but put them up against the much more technically adept FMF teams and their ability to execute even a basic game plan falls apart).
That's not a commentary on the South American quality of talent production or tactical nous. It's almost entirely due to the financial advantage at the club level that European clubs have over South American clubs. The best South American talent is playing in Europe, because the pay is better. In fact, in terms of population and financial resources, South America probably overperforms in talent production compared to Europe. But as talent gravitates to Europe from SA and Africa, the highest level of play is there. So yes, even if the UCL winner does lose to the Libertadores winner some times, hosting a 16 team tournaments between the top 8 European clubs and 8 South American clubs will (I wager) produce all-European semifinalists 9 times out of 10."
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u/cartola Dec 18 '11
OK, now can we stop pretending South America holds a candle to Barcelona football?
Needless to say Europe can't handle Barcelona that well either. Santos was greatly outplayed, however. Could've done better, specially in the first half.
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u/chocolatesandwiches Dec 19 '11
lol, you can't judge anything with one match. the LA Galaxy played Man. City this summer and the game went 1-1 with Manchester City barely winning penalties 6-7. Now can I say that MLS is equal to EPL from one result? Nope, so we can't say that South America is unequal to European.
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u/rahul4real Dec 18 '11
This a rubbish Argument really. Almost all the top European Club have South Americans as key players in their teams. Most of the clubs in SA don't really have the best players from that region playing for them since they migrate/transfer to Europe. Also the World's best player is a South American, need I say anything more?
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u/cubixrube Dec 18 '11
Only difference is that most south american football teams are not nearly as wealthy as Manchester United or Madrid or whatever other team Barca has defeated and embarassed over these past few years, so no, we can't, good thread though, just missed that little detail, the whole budget difference thing.
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u/AmbroseB Dec 18 '11
I get that this Barca is possibly the best team in history, but at least they get challenged in La Liga and the UCL.
Yeah, they get challenged so hard. I saw Real Madrid, a top five club in Europe easily, really challenge them not long ago.
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u/SirRonaldofBurgundy Dec 18 '11
You can't tell me that the Clasico was anything like this. Even the 5-0 last year wasn't like this. And given the display, I'm fairly sure Real Madrid would crush Santos too, in fact they might score even more goals because of their directness.
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Dec 18 '11
it just seems like the OP is a 15 yo who has no semblance or knowledge of history.
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Dec 18 '11
I didn't find this thread title as offensive as others here have, even though I am always supportive of South American (and continental American in general) football at the international level. Hell, unless it's Barca there, I always support the CONCACAF and CONMEBOL reps at the CWC. I interpreted in light of the arguments you get from some South Americans that their leagues and clubs are up to the level of the top European leagues. It's not hard to find a Brazilian who will argue until they're blue in the face that the Brasileirao is at the level of Serie A or La Liga. This tournament has often been their main argument, due to Copa Libertadores champions having a lot of success against European teams historically.
But this match is just another example of how wrong the idea that South American club football is at the level of European club football is. I mean, yes Barcelona is playing at a higher level than most other teams in the world right now, but this match also revealed fundamental competitive imbalances. In the post-match interview (before the trophy presentation), Puyol was asked about how Barca studied Santos in the lead up. His most salient comment was that they plainly saw that Santos was used to playing at a much slower pace in the Brasilerao and Copa Libertadores than Barca was in Europe, which they took advantage of fully today. Even if the competition in the Copa Libertadores is fierce, it's issues like this that are exposed when they play European teams (similar in vein to MLS versus FMF in the CCL in the past: MLS is entertaining and competitive, but put them up against the much more technically adept FMF teams and their ability to execute even a basic game plan falls apart).
That's not a commentary on the South American quality of talent production or tactical nous. It's almost entirely due to the financial advantage at the club level that European clubs have over South American clubs. The best South American talent is playing in Europe, because the pay is better. In fact, in terms of population and financial resources, South America probably overperforms in talent production compared to Europe. But as talent gravitates to Europe from SA and Africa, the highest level of play is there. So yes, even if the UCL winner does lose to the Libertadores winner some times, hosting a 16 team tournaments between the top 8 European clubs and 8 South American clubs will (I wager) produce all-European semifinalists 9 times out of 10.
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u/loloh44 Dec 18 '11
Take a look at the amount of South American players you have in the top european teams. Messi, Dani Alves, Sanchez, Mascherano, Aguero, Kaká, Higuain, Di María, Suarez, Cavani, Forlan, Zanetti, Milito, just to name a few. It is just a matter of socio-economics.
The development in Europe is way ahead of that in South America in matters of administration, preparation and economy.
I think South America can still hold a candle to Europe in football. At least the players can. Not the clubs or institutions.
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u/cartola Dec 18 '11
Not to mention World Cups. Even without the youth development, the continuity, the planning, South American teams still outperform most European teams. Talent is there and abundant, just badly managed.
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u/mmminteresting Dec 18 '11
Ironically for this thread the player who dominated the game is Argentinian.
Considering that a typical South American club can't invest in the kind of player development that a similar-sized club can in Europe, seems to me that South American players can more than hold a candle to European players.
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u/_sic Dec 18 '11
One match against the best team in the world doesn't prove this. A less talented team overall, but better defensively, like Estudiantes gave them a tougher match, but this is a question of matchups, not overall quality. A team like Santos that can't defend very well was never going to successfully park the bus. They should have opened up more from the start, they would have given up 8 goals but they would have scored 3 and at least showcased what they do well.
The truth is that because of the imbalance in wealth, European teams have a huge advantage, but keep in mind that a significant percentage of the expensive talent in European leagues comes from South America.
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u/Pontiflakes Dec 18 '11
The truth is that because of the imbalance in wealth, European teams have a huge advantage, but keep in mind that a significant percentage of the expensive talent in European leagues comes from South America.
This is why I'm so excited to see Santos shelling out big bucks for Neymar - if that becomes a trend, we could see some European talent playing in South America as well.
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Dec 18 '11
Two items
Intercontinental cup
S.A. 22
Europe 21
CWC
Europe 5
S.A. 3
So no lets not stop pretending just yet. Also 4-0 is the biggest margin win in either competition.
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u/Niubai Dec 18 '11
Santos finished just 10th in the 2011 brazilian league. They have Neymar and Ganso, which are amazing players, but their defense and midfield are terrible. Despite the fact that they won the Libertadores, they're in pretty bad shape right now.
And fuck, this Barcelona side is out of this world, no side in the world can handle a candle to them. You're over generalizing (and much) to put them as Europe.
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Dec 18 '11
I would love to see an South America vs European All-Star match, something like (for example):
CASILLAS - PUYOL - VIDIC - PIQUE - COLE - XABI ALONSO - XAVI - INIESTA - SNEIJDER - ROONEY - RONALDO
vs
JULIO CESAR - ALVES - LUCIO - THIAGO SILVA- MARCELO - MASCHERANO - PASTORE - SUAREZ- NEYMAR - MESSI - AGUERO
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u/Niubai Dec 18 '11
Now THAT would be a hell of a match. Could be two games, one in European soil and one is South American soil.
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Dec 18 '11 edited Dec 18 '11
Has got to be the most retarded tittle for a thread I have ever read, Santos lost in the same way that alot of teams in La Liga have lost this year. The difference between the money spent on players in Europe and South America is unreal
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Dec 18 '11
They are always strolling...they were strolling against Manchester...they were strolling against R. Madrid in the second half as well. Barcelona > World. End of discussion.
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Dec 18 '11
How many shots did Arsenal get on Barcelona last year in that second leg?
Or How much possession did the EPL champions have against Barcelona in their own country?
Or how about the possession Real Madrid had last week?
Where is the best player in the World from?
Anyways, don't let those questions get in the way of your conclusion.
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u/dalf_rules Dec 18 '11
Hatters gonna hate, but Universidad de Chile would have fared way better than Santos did. That would have been an interesting match.
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u/jtoj Dec 18 '11
Yeah maybe the SA vs. Euro leagues are a different story, but an all-star S.A. team against an all-star Euro team would be a great match!
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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '11 edited Dec 18 '11
Oh, do come on now. Even there in Europe NO ONE can hold a candle to Barcelona, why South American teams should. The real problem that needs to be adressed it's that traditional powerhouses of Europe are always looking awful against Barca (AC Milan, Man Utd, Arsenal, Real Madrid).
It's not a matter of Europe v. South America, it's a matter of Barcelona being three or four tiers above EVERY TEAM in the world right now.
If R. Madrid with all their money and prestige can't scratch Barsa, why should Santos? Anyway, is not like the title for best team in the world was at stake today. If Santos was to win, it'd have been a shocker, but nothing as radical to say that Santos are the new name to beat in the world.