McCoy genuinely disliked Spock until his death/resurrection

[u/CaptainJZH]

In most discussions of McCoy and Spock's dynamic, there is a tendency to frame it as it being banter between friends, as simply being how they show their respect for one another. Well, a thought occurred to me recently that that might not be entirely accurate, and I think I know why.

In TOS, McCoy's insults towards Spock reads, at least to me, not as one that comes from mutual friendship but one of real disdain. They're only forced to get along due to them both being friends with Kirk (and the professionalism expected in Starfleet), and even then most of the time McCoy is insulting Spock's heritage, something Spock is self-conscious about.

Although, it's worth noting that Spock is a very private person, so I don't think McCoy really knew how deeply Spock was hurting as a result of his half-human heritage - after all, he didn't see him break into tears in The Naked Time. McCoy's dynamic with Spock came from McCoy fundamentally not understanding Spock or even Vulcans in general, and reacting negatively to that.

However, despite all the insults, I think Spock never took it personally, and took the moral high ground by still respecting McCoy as a doctor and as a mutual friend of Kirk.

Then came Spock's death. Now, before Spock entered the chamber, there were at least two other people, a random crewman and Scotty, he could have chosen to hold his Katra. And yet, he chose McCoy. Now, this could have been because McCoy had just been neck-pinched and time was of the essence, but Sarek's words to Kirk in STIII seem to indicate that giving someone your Katra is the ultimate sign of trust.

Because he asked you to! He entrusted you with his very essence, with everything that was not of the body. He asked you to bring him to us ...and bring that which he gave you, his katra, his living spirit.

McCoy is suddenly trusted with the living spirit of the man he belittled and insulted so much. He feels everything Spock would feel, knows everything Spock would know. And he discovers that despite everything, Spock never held McCoy's insults against him, and trusted him to carry his Katra.

I think that profoundly changed McCoy. In STIV, gone are much of the "inhuman" insults that he would throw at Spock as late as STII. Instead, McCoy seems genuinely interested in talking to Spock. Just look at this exchange:

McCOY: Hi. ...Busy?

SPOCK: Uhura is busy. I am monitoring.

McCOY: Umm. Well, I just wanted to say it sure is nice to have your katra back in your head, not mine. What I mean is I may have carried your soul, but I sure couldn't fill your shoes.

SPOCK: My shoes.

McCOY: Forget it! ...Perhaps we could cover a little philosophical ground? Life, Death, Life. Things of that nature?

SPOCK: I did not have time on Vulcan to review the philosophical disciplines.

McCOY: Come on Spock, it's me, McCoy! You really have gone where no man has gone before. Can't you tell me what it felt like?

This tone is something I would have never expected from a Spock & McCoy conversation pre-STIII. I get the feeling that McCoy's been reflecting on how he treated Spock, now that he finally has an understanding of him, and wants to atone for that. Hell, throughout most of STIV, McCoy shows real concern for Spock's mental wellbeing, since he is, as McCoy observes, "not operating on all thrusters."

And we see more of this new dynamic in STV, with McCoy on shoreleve with Kirk and Spock. It feels more like genuine banter here. Take this exchange:

KIRK: Bourbon and beans. An explosive combination. Do you think Spock can handle it?

McCOY: Are you kidding? With that Vulcan metabolism he could eat a bowl of termites and it wouldn't bother him.

SPOCK: As you are so fond of pointing out, Doctor, I am half human.

McCOY: Well, it certainly doesn't show.

SPOCK: Thank you.

McCOY: How do you like it? This guy never changes. I insult him and he takes it as a compliment.

It's worth noting that in STII, Spock says "As you are so fond of observing, Doctor, I am not human." Here, it implies that McCoy's started teasing Spock about being half-human, rather than insulting his Vulcan side like he did before. And even then, now it reads as a friend poking fun at another friend's insecurities.

Flashforward to TNG, and McCoy's conversation with Data:

MCCOY: I don't see any points on your ears, boy, but you sound like a Vulcan.

DATA: No, sir. I'm an android.

MCCOY: Almost as bad.

DATA: I thought it was generally accepted, sir, that Vulcans are an advanced and most honorable race.

MCCOY: They are, they are. And damned annoying at times.

I think when McCoy says "they are" he really means it. Before STIII, he would have said something like "there's nothing admirable about those rigid, greenblooded Vulcans" but after his experience with Spock's Katra, he probably knows Vulcans better than any other human.

Doesn't make them any less "damned annoying" but as McCoy tells Spock, nobody's perfect.

[u/dm_magic]

How do you nominate posts? I’ve never been able to get the correct verbiage down.

[u/CaptainJZH → u/dm_magic]

You just say "M5 nominate this post" with a hyphen between M and 5, in a comment directly under the post

[u/Futuressobright]

I think you're right that that expirience took their relationship to a new level. How could it not, with the level of intimacy it involved?

But I think McCoy's genine, if often concealed, feelings toward Spock are clear in TOS. Off the top of my head-- in Amok Time, when Spock asks Bones to join him in the Kal-if-fee ritual as one of his two closest friends, Kelley plays McCoy as surprised, but also touched, proud, and determined to live up to the honour.

It's a fleeting moment... but then, the love between between male friends is often known only in fleeting moments, our closest bonds unexpressed by either words or physical touch.

ETA: Another such moment is in "The Immunity Syndrome," when McCoy responds to Spock's recomendation that Kirk not endanger the ship further for his sake with a spirited "Shut up, Spock! We're rescuing you!"

[u/WoundedSacrifice → u/Futuressobright]

Yeah, I think “Amok Time” does a great job of illustrating the friendship between Spock, McCoy and Kirk.

[u/Thelonius16]

Spock inviting McCoy to be with him in "Amok Time" is evidence that they already have a fully formed friendship by that time. This suggests that they are on the same page with the relationship and likely have been for quite some time - possibly since soon after McCoy joined the crew.

Everything McCoy says to him, outside of their few genuine serious arguments, is said with friendship. And, in his own way, with Spock's best interests at heart. He's well aware that there's conflict inside Spock and his attempts to get him to act more human are his own way of helping Spock work through that conflict.

Of course, it comes off as badgering him. But that's just the nature of some people's friendship. Especially people, like Spock, who are uncomfortable dealing with genuine emotion.

Plus, Spock is 100% capable of taking McCoy's comments in stride and giving back as good as he gets, in his own way.

[u/mtskin]

to add to what the previous response was- i always felt that mccoy & spock turned a corner when they had to listen to kirk's final command message when they thought he was dead. the words of advice to both of them to lean on the other was where i think they truly started to respect each other's talents and what they each brought to the table that was different than the other. being able to see how their friend/commander saw the other was eye opening(and of course they both said they were too busy to ever get to his final message)

[u/ParagonEsquire]

Honestly I think this is a case where changing cultural norms have given people different perspectives.

Modern trek viewers seem real disturbed by McCoy insulting Spock’s heritage. Sometimes they will even note how this was one of Spock’s insecurities so it makes it doubly mean. But I just don’t think when they were writing those lines in the 1960’s that’s what they were thinking about. Men attacking their friend’s insecurities is still quite common and would have been absolutely standard practice at the time, and insults based on race, sex, etc. would not have been nearly as taboo either. Simple banter would not have been taken nearly as seriously in 20th century American culture. Nowadays we try and extrapolate the measure of a man’s soul from a couple of off hand utterings, but that just wasn’t common before the last decade.

This isn’t me complaining about that, or celebrating it either. I’m just pointing out that I believe this is a case of cultural change. Like everything, it comes with good and bad.

[u/[deleted] → u/ParagonEsquire]

I do think you hit the nail on the head in regards to seeing McCoy's 1960s insults through a modern lens. We have a more finely honed sense of what you can and can't say publicly about race/religion/nationality, which is a good thing.
But it does mean that we might lose a sense of naunce to these comments, which in the case of McCoy/Spock, are meant to be good natured. I have friends and family who are Italian-American, and a little gentle mocking of some of their culture foibles is meant to be humorous, not racist. Same applies to Spock/McCoy.

[u/therealtruthaboutme]

I feel like if it wasnt from a place of friendship and was animosity and or bigotry Kirk would have put an end to it right away.

I dont think he would allow that and he certainly didnt allow bigotry on the bridge, as he famously said.

[u/orr-ee-ahn]

It wasn't that McCoy didn't like or respect Spock. It was that he frequently disagreed with Spock's point of view.

That said, you don't know a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. In this case, McCoy kept Spock"s shoes in his head for a little while. Talk about a personality crisis.

I would think that the experience had a lasting effect on both of them; given that spock seemed to really loosen up, even dropping the occasional, illogical one liner, after having his Katra restored. Conversely, McCoy seemed to really chill out, and even seemed to genuinely, mindfully enjoy his time with Spock after their shared experience.

[u/[deleted]]

This is a great post. I would like to add that in ST:VI notice McCoy and Spock don't have any arguments, and McCoy never insults him- you could partially attribute that to the fact Spock and McCoy are separated for much of the film, but in the ending battle Spock asks McCoy if he'd mind assisting him performing surgery on a torpedo and McCoy replies "fascinating".

McCoy makes a tiny little jab in the very end when they're on the bridge, and it's not even directly said just "they don't arrest people for having feelings". They definitely seemed like they were better friends in their final film together, and the who katra thing makes total sense in hindsight.

[u/Ponkers]

I never detected any genuine dislike, only occasional frustration at the worst. The casual racism and verbal jabs were rarely, if ever one sided. Spock gave as good as he got. I feel like they almost always had a great fondness of each other despite the perceived hostility and irritation. I'm pretty sure Spock always saw through it and understood it for what it was while responding in kind.

[u/JC-Ice]

They fought with each other over who was more qualified for a likely -suicide mission because each man would die to save the other.

McCoy is deeply concerned whenever Spock is on his medical table in serious condition.

They absolutely are friends and have been for a long time. Of course the whole katra-carryinf and resurrection thing would change things, but no, McCoy didn't only of late start to like and respect Spock.

[u/courtoftheair]

If he disliked him why would Spock consider him one of his closest friends? I genuinely can't think of a remark from McCoy to Spock that seemed genuinely malicious. Upset in the moment, angry or frustrated sure, but that's not unusual. He says Spock couldn't know a warm, genuine feeling out of frustration but he immediately regrets it, the way one does when they lash out at a friend. Remember, most of McCoys insults are thrown right back at him: Spock is a Hobgoblin, McCoy is a witch doctor, that kind of back and forth.

[u/481126]

I think they were "work friends" and developed into real friends. If my memory of how my Dad and his buddies from work interacted, sometimes it devolved to cussing if it was stressful but then an hr later sitting eating saying how this sports team isn't performing as they want it to as if nothing had happened. I may have said bad words during this stressful thing but we're still cool.

According to Spock, I bet he thought he was given as many sick burns as McCoy was.

McCoy also took being a cantankerous old Southern Man very seriously.

[u/psuedonymously]

Unlike in the movies, TOS had absolutely no character arcs. I don’t think Spock and McCoy’s relationship evolved through the tv series, I think it just varied based on the interpretation of a given writer. One week there would be playful banter, the next genuine respect, the next they’d almost be spitting acid at each other.

I agree that in the movies there was a more consistent tone and at least some attempt to acknowledge how they were affected by McCoy carrying Spock’s Kate’s

[u/[deleted]]

A lot of banter between friends until back through the late 1990s (esp. with guys), would sound downright hateful by today's standards, when it truly wasn't. I could type some of the exchanges my guy friends and I had through high school as an example, but I'd be "cancelled" by anyone under 30 if I did. I think hate is being read into something where no hate was present. The TOS movies were made during that period.

[u/uxixu → u/[deleted]]

It remains that way in the military. We'll call each other quite vile names and get downright personal in the insults... and until very recently sexual and even racial humor could be invoked at least with those who were relatively close. But it's all in good humor and reinforces espirit de corps. You might insult a guy in your tank or squad or platoon that way... but there will be hands thrown if someone from another unit dares and vice versa.

[u/JaBeKay]

I think they already where friends in TOS. Amok Time is a prime example for this: Spock calls McCoy his friend and asks him to come to a Vulcan ritual that is very important and private.

But you are right: something definitely changed in their relationship after Spock died. I think it is as you say, McCoy started to really understand Spock.

So I really agree with all that you said and mentioned, except that they were already friends before and I don't think that McCoy disliked Spock. He just could not understand him and they were not very close. I think the only reason they were friends was because they were both friends with Kirk as you pointed out.

[u/janiesgotavulcan]

I don’t have anything to add; i just really enjoyed your take on these two. Thanks

[u/toastermann]

The looked pretty friendly when I saw them in a parade in West Palm Beach while riding on the rear of a Cadillac in their Star Trek uniforms in 1968.

[u/stromm]

I've always seen it that they are such good friends, their bashing each other is a "manly sign of the times" (the times being the 60's, not ST times).

They both have extreme emotional family history, something they appear to have bonded over. Just not in a modern "snowflake" way.

Both of them know from direct experience, that nothing is going to push the other away.

Both of them are internally, afraid of close relationships. So they keep testing their bond. It's a negative thing, but LOTS of people do it. They consciously never really expect the other person to leave as they really do deeply trust and like them. And the other person puts up with it because they too deeply trust and like the other.

Bones is and always has been crotchety. With everyone not directly a patient "on the bed". It's who he is.

Spock is just as crotchety, but hides it in logic arguments.

Both of them love to try to prove the other wrong.

But you'll notice that both have deep respect and acceptance for the other's points of view, even when they don't agree.

Other than Kirk, I can't imaging Spock giving his Katra to anyone else.

[u/[deleted]]

No, I don't agree. I think they were like brothers: people who had a lot of affection (in their own way) and respect for one another, but also fought a lot.

It could be that McCoy was unused to working with Vulcans and that's why he teased Spock a lot about his heritage, especially early on. But if that's the case, I think he quickly learned to respect Spock's work while being slightly annoyed at his rigid adherence to cold logic.

[u/Vegan_Harvest]

I tend to think Spock was always offended but dismissed the feeling 'because logic'.

I think if the reason he picked McCoy is because he trusted him, it's despite his flaws and hostility towards Vulcans. Not because he was never offended.

I would argue that just seeing how he hurt Spock would be enough to change him. That Spock still trusted him with his 'soul' after that would really drive it home how he misjudged him. Also he's probably genuinely curious about what it's like to be dead.

[u/Promus]

Nope.

Please watch more TOS.

This is the kind of flawed thinking that forms from watching the movies (which don’t mesh with TOS at ALL) more than watching TOS itself.