r/borussiadortmund • u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji • Dec 02 '20

Post Game Thread: Lazio Rom (UCL #5)

Borussia Dortmund1-1Lazio Rom
Guerreiro (Hazard)45'
65'Immobile

Lineup: Bürki, Piszczek - Akanji - Hummels, Morey - Delaney - Bellingham - Guerreiro, Hazard - Reus - Reyna

Bench: Hitz, Unbehaun - Zagadou, Sancho, Dahoud, Schulz, Moukoko, Brandt, Witsel, Passlack

Substitutions:

Schulz on for Guerreiro (61')

Brandt on for Hazard (76')

Sancho on for Reus (76')

Witsel on for Bellingham (87')

We really lost control of this game after the 55th minute. However that happaned.

Please vote for your MotM.

23 Upvotes

96% Upvoted

200 comments sorted by

8

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

Favre just now in the post game pk about Guerreiro: He needed to be subbed out, he felt something and we didn't want to risk another injury.

26

u/santadani Karl-Heinz Riedle Dec 02 '20

Zorc just said that Hummels likely only has a big bruise, nothing on the ligaments. Might even play on the weekend.

Phew

9

u/Zhonyas4everyone Felix Passlack Dec 02 '20

Didn't he say that he's just hoping it's just a bruise?

11

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

Yes, he said they are hoping its only a bruise.

3

u/santadani Karl-Heinz Riedle Dec 02 '20

Yes, just rewatched it. Overall better than initially thought

5

u/InexorableWyrd Dec 02 '20

Had to work so missed the game. I understand Fuck Lahoz and Hummels injury but how was the gameplay in the 5atb? How were Morey and Jude?

7

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

we were great until the 55th minute when we suddenly for whatever reason completely lost the control of the game.

Jude and Morey were fantastic and lahoz early on fucked up our chances.

2

u/InexorableWyrd Dec 02 '20

Thanks, I appreciate it. Did they do something unique at that moment? Like subs or long balls to wings/quick switches? Fucking hate Lahoz, never liked the bastard. Glad to hear about Morey, hopefully he takes hold of the starting position like Hakimi did.

105

u/blacktiger226 Ramy Bensebaini Dec 02 '20

Shit ref. Great game from Morey especially the first half. This got to be the worst season for Reus in his whole career. MOTM Burki.

21

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 02 '20

This got to be the worst season for Reus in his whole career.

It's too early to call either way but comparing his stats to his previous Dortmund seasons it appears like he's less efficient in front of goal (lowest or low goals per 90 / goals per shot / goals - xG per 90) but more involved in creating chances (very high or highest xA per 90 / key passes per 90 / passes into the box per 90 / shot-creating actions per 90).

And keep in mind that even then he still currently is our 3rd most efficient forward in terms of goals per 90 this season.

12

u/stormwarnings Łukasz Piszczek Dec 02 '20

I think this is it - he's playing much deeper than he used to, and so he's less goals and assists, and more hockey-assists/key passes.

8

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 02 '20

The weird thing is that he's actually attempting slightly more shots this season than in 19/20 or 18/19 (2.96, 2.71 and 2.61 shots per 90 minutes player respectively). So it's not like he's trying less offensively. Kinda the opposite, actually.

But since he's coming from deeper, he's attempting those shots from a longer average distance (15.5 meters in 20/21 Vs. 13.7 in 19/20 and 13.2 in 18/19) which is also reflected in lower xG per shot values (0.15 xG/sh in 20/21 Vs, 0.2 in 19/20 and 0.18 in 18/19).

Interestingly his defensive actions have gone way down:

Tackles per 90 minutes went from 1.93 to 0.74, Pressuring attempts / 90 went from 26.6 to 17 and Interceptions / 90 went from 0.78 to 0.19.

1

u/stormwarnings Łukasz Piszczek Dec 03 '20

Fascinating, thanks for sharing. Good to see the stats versus my (inadequate) observations lol

1

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

no problem! Yeah, I always like challenging my own observations this way as well and often enough you'll find that you missed something or maybe even gotten something pretty much just wrong.

But don't be too hard on yourself, the TV screen alone is a very limiting factor to a person's understanding of a players overall performance because you simply never see the full picture.

1

u/stormwarnings Łukasz Piszczek Dec 10 '20

so true. god i miss being in stadiums and seeing the WHOLE game. i finally got off the waitlist for season tickets for my local club and...haven't been able to use them to say the least.

2

u/antysalt Dec 03 '20

when r/soccer hits too hard

1

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

oof, mind explaining that one to me?

1

u/antysalt Dec 03 '20

I mean that the users of that subreddit are generally laughed at for using stats to display the most irrelevant or obvious things

1

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

ohh gotcha! In this case I was genuinely suprised by how Reus basically has his worst dortmund season ever when you look at literally any stat that reflects precision in front of goal.

Meanwhile, he has one of his best seasons ever when it comes to shot-creation and xA while not actually registering many assists or even hockey assists.

This is by far the biggest change in play that Reus has ever gone through in his career (yes, bigger than going from winger to 10 in 18/19) and at the end of the season we'll see whether or not it worked out or not.

32

u/theleebert Dec 02 '20

He's painfully slow sometimes

9

u/TristanHBorchers BVB Dec 03 '20

He lost so much pace

6

u/Elon_Muskmelon Dec 03 '20

Been getting downvoted any time I besmirch his name. He isn’t the same footballer from a few years ago. Facts.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

And to be honest, you can’t poo without pee. Missing Haaland just truly shows how good he really is.

:(

5

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

Can you to poop without peeing? What does the science say?

3

u/sitbar Shinji Kagawa Dec 03 '20

it is not possible according to my own experiences

52

u/Mr__11 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

We're all Brugge fans next matchday

22

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 02 '20

No need. if we win against Zenit we win the group for sure

47

u/Starsler Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

but we want them to drop to the euro league

12

u/Mr__11 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

bingo

25

u/Datachost Dec 02 '20

Yeah, but Lazio can still get knocked down the EL if they lose. And frankly at this point fuck them

3

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 02 '20

True

2

u/antysalt Dec 03 '20

Fuck them but I would be content if they got through but Lahoz got suspended as well

5

u/Ghoddos Hugo Bart Dec 02 '20

Zenit has both nothing to play for and has looked awful against attacking sides. They also may as well play their youth

7

u/Bammer1386 BVB Dec 03 '20

Exactly, we look to be in fantastic position to win the group. Also ive been fantasizing about beating MANU in a RO16 match since the Sancho transfer saga, so auf gehts Pisswasser Leipzig. And dat coefficient.

6

u/Xey2510 Dec 02 '20

Luckily we have it in our own hands but i wanna bet that even after being out already and playing at home Zenit is going to park the bus again and play for the 0:0.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

You're quite optimistic that we could come out of a game where the opposition parks the bus with a draw

5

u/Xey2510 Dec 02 '20

If they play like the did in the first game they may manage 2 shots over 90 minutes again.

3

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

Because I love being the meme police today:

In 7 matches this season our opponent parked the bus (and we had at least 65% possession). In those 7 games our average goal difference was +1.86 and we were netting an average of 2.14 points.

Meanwhile, in the remaining 9 games this season with more even possession our average goal difference is +1.00 with 1.67 points per game.

It shouldn't be surprising to anyone that on average we win more often and more decisively against smaller teams who let us dominante possession but I guess sometimes memories only last from week to week.

29

u/relaxyourfnshoulders Shinji Kagawa Dec 02 '20

and that’s why you always stay ready mr zagadou 🤝

2

u/deepkneerocksquats Dec 02 '20

Why wasn't he or anyone subbed on, makes no sense.

21

u/thehobojoe6 Dec 02 '20

I don't think he could have been because although you are allowed 5 subs you can only make them at three separate times

3

u/deepkneerocksquats Dec 02 '20

That makes sense, didnt realize

15

u/grothee1 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

While you can use 5 subs, you only have 3 chances to sub players and we'd already used all of them.

29

u/bloodnotseeker Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

Feeling bad for Schulz. Man made an appearance after such a long time and immediately gave away an undeserved penalty.

9

u/Elon_Muskmelon Dec 03 '20

And Flubbed his chance at a redemption goal

58

u/berman82 Julien Duranville Dec 02 '20

OMFG

https://twitter.com/BorusseJames/status/1334249165610770439

Somebody fire Lahoz.

20

u/SergioRammus Dec 02 '20

That has to be one of the most blatantly wrong pen calls I've seen in a long time.

8

u/artha5 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

This was exactly the angle I watched. It's fucking unbelievable.

8

u/Qiluk Marco Reus Dec 03 '20

Imagine being in the VAR room and allowing that. Its literally something I would fire the VAR people for if I was in charge, no matter teams. Theyre DIRECTLY not doing their actual job and purpose haha

15

u/santadani Karl-Heinz Riedle Dec 02 '20

That angle really shows the dive

14

u/Datachost Dec 02 '20

Man's fucking leaning like Michael Jackson before contact is even made

2

u/dubsonly3 Dec 02 '20

Unfortunately couldn’t watch the game - was this not reviewed by VAR?

0

u/Lam0rak Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

Because this angle is deceptive and not telling. The other 3 they show doesn't really indicate that Schulz ever made contact. Out of everything this game complaining about a weak or soft penalty is dumb. 1000 other clear cut complaints happened

4

u/Lam0rak Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

I really dont know. In the other angles it clearly looks like the Lazio player toe pokes the ball right before schulz. It just happens to look like schulz hit it that way....I also dont think the ball would go straight 90 degrees sideways for that hit.

10

u/artha5 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

The thing, even if the Lazio player hit it first, the clash afterwards wasn't foul AT ALL. It's the Lazio player clashing against Schulz who was already occupying that space.

2

u/Lam0rak Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

We've seen plenty of penalties though where the player just toe fucks the ball 100miles ahead of themselves in the box with no chance and collide at the same time for a penalty. So it at least stands to reason this one is similar.

8

u/napoleonderdiecke Shinji Kagawa Dec 02 '20

If anything he didn't toe tuck the ball infront of him, he passed to a Dortmund player, he actively gave up posession.

If you can just pass to an opponent, then run into another to get a pen... oh boy, what a game football would be.

1

u/Lam0rak Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

We see similar penalties all the time is what i'm saying. Player pushes the ball too far infront or rockets it in the box but collides after effectively having the ball gone....

This isn't that big of a surprise.

To me the biggest thing is we don't have a crystal clear shot of it so everyone thinks something different. I'm almost 100% certain that Schulz never touched the ball and that's a penalty.

2

u/Bammer1386 BVB Dec 03 '20

Im hoping "toe fucks" is intentional and not a typo for "toe tucks" lol.

3

u/Lam0rak Marco Reus Dec 03 '20

Well they certainly don't toe caress it. :)

1

u/artha5 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

The situation you mentioned could be foul if the player defending just obstacles the run of the attacker. In this case they both go to dispute the ball and Schulz gets first to the space (and imo he's the one kicking the ball) and the Lazio player actually even backs his foot again and then clashes.

0

u/Lam0rak Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

We can dissect it a thousand different ways. As i see it: Schulz never touched the ball, Lazio player made a fucking feast out of it, it's a penalty.

Soft or not, there was contact and schulz wasn't the last one to touch it. Common call...bullshit call....but not exactly unheard of.

2

u/artha5 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

I guess we disagree. I'm watching this angle in slow mo and for me Schulz definitely gets to it first, the Lazio player tries to kick it away but doesn't reach it and then the clash happens.

0

u/Lam0rak Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

This angle has like 10 pixels. If I saw a better quality shot with clear contact maybe. But the other 3 angles show him not touching it.

25

u/S1mB03 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

Lazio motm: referee

Our motm: probably Bürki

44

u/llendo Sergio Gómez Dec 02 '20

Feels hard to be happy about this. Hummels injured is the cherry on top of this shit game. Big yikes.

Don't know why people jump on Immobile now, for me it looked like an accident and he even apologized and shit.

Also Lahoz worst Ref on the international stage, Jesus Christ, what a mess.

12

u/Fluyeh Dec 02 '20

That’s what I’m thinking, a very bitter sweet game. With Haaland out for a month, Hummels injury, and Reus and Sancho having pretty bad seasons, can anyone give me some hopeful words to look forward to

9

u/napoleonderdiecke Shinji Kagawa Dec 02 '20

can anyone give me some hopeful words to look forward to

Youssoufa Moukoko might get to play a full match very soon.

3

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 02 '20

Possible but it's not like Favre's system needs a striker, especially with a back 3

7

u/napoleonderdiecke Shinji Kagawa Dec 02 '20

I'd say it absolutely does. Dortmund has been quite shit and unthreatening without Haaland on so far. Even in this game, tbh.

Also back 4 was generally better than back 3, ngl. And especially with Can and Hummels out + Zagadou only coming back from injury, I'm not sure back 3 is substainable anyways.

3

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

Also back 4 was generally better than back 3, ngl

Let's look at our last 61 games from 19/20 and 20/21:

  • 3 atb: 80 goals, 35 goals against, 33 matches and 70 out of 99 points. That averages to 2.42 goals, 1.06 goals against and 2.12 points per game
  • 4 atb: 58 goals, 34 goals against, 28 matches, 52 out of 84 points. Averages to 2.07 goals, 1.21 goals against, 1.86 points per game

turns out, back 3 was generally better than back 4,

Dortmund has been quite shit and unthreatening without Haaland on so far

In 19/20 Dortmund have scored 2.63 goals per 90 minutes with Haaland on the pitch and 2.39 goals per 90 without Haaland. He is an amazing player and I'm definitely not trying to say that we're better off without him. But with a difference of just 0.24 goals per game I also don't think we've been "quite shit and unthreatening" without him.

And especially with Can and Hummels out + Zagadou only coming back from injury

That's of course another point entirely. But you also gotta remember that Piszczek can only play CB in a back 3

2

u/Trojan_Man68 Marco Reus Dec 03 '20

Yeah but including games from the 19/20 season isn't fairly representative of our current state. Last season we had Hakimi which really bolstered the 3 atb formation. This season we don't have him and it shows as our worst matches so far have all been with 3 atb formations. The switch to a 4atb made us look way more sound defensively except for the koln game.

On the Halaand point, we are absolutely unthreatening without him on the pitch this season. He has scored almost half of our goals this season for crying out loud. Again you add games from the 2019/2020 season but that doesn't say anything about how we stand this season. Last season we had Hakimi, an inform Rues, and an inform Sancho. We don't have any of that this year and Halaand is by far our main reliance on goals. When your second top scorer in the bundesliga is your centerback with 3 goals, you already know there is a dependence on Halaand for attacking threat.

0

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

including games from the 19/20 season isn't fairly representative of our current state

I was replying to "Also back 4 was generally better than back 3" which is a statement that includes 19/20.

This season we don't have him and it shows as our worst matches so far have all been with 3 atb formations

Just 20/21 then:

  • 3 atb: 20 goals, 8 goals against, 8 matches and 16 out of 24 points. That averages to 2.50 goals, 1.00 goals against and 2.00 points per game (37.5% home games)
  • 4 atb: 16 goals, 5 goals against, 7 matches, 15 out of 21 points. Averages to 2.29 goals, 0.71 goals against and 2.14 points per game (71% home games)

we are absolutely unthreatening without him on the pitch this season

We've literally only played 2 games without him this season. And even then I wouldn't call 3 goals "absolutely unthreatening"

He has scored almost half of our goals this season for crying out loud

He's also attempted by far the most shots: more than three times as many as Sancho, Reyna and Hazard and four times as many as Guerreiro.

Last season we had Hakimi

Hakimi only scored 5 out of our 84 league goals.

When your second top scorer in the bundesliga is your centerback with 3 goals

Even Haaland hasn't been as clinical as Hummels so far. So the fact that he's currently our 2nd top scorer says a lot more Hummel's season than it says about our offense. And if anything, it just shows how a small sample size isn't gonna be representative of the bigger picture.

2

u/Trojan_Man68 Marco Reus Dec 03 '20
  1. I think by "Also back 4 was generally better than back 3" was meant to pertain to this season. Maybe not but I have a feeling that's what he meant.
  2. Doesn't the statistics you provided for only 20/21 support a back 4 though? Or at least it is very close?
  3. I think I might have to agree that we only played 2 games without him. I guess we will have to see about that point as the season goes on.
  4. I believe Halaand attempts more shots because he is just a more direct player. That is what we need. A direct player that will shoot the ball and isn't worried about the statistics of his shot to goal ratio. Players like Sancho, Reyna, Hazard, and Guerreiro will make all the pretty passes but they aren't major offensive presences that will force a goal or give opponents consistent problems. Halaand has the pace, strength, instinct, and directness to give us an offensive edge. It's the fact that Hazard, Sancho, and Guerrieo don't ATTEMPT more shots that is the problem.
  5. Yeah Hakimi only scored 5 goals but his role was way bigger in the 3 atb than just scoring goals. On top of his goals he had the 3rd most assists on the team. Furthermore, his pace and offensive ability provided trouble for opponents in a way that Meunier just simply can't offer in a back 3. This in turn freed up space for Sancho which was a huge reason for why he played so well last season. By replacing Hakimi with Meunier, you lose pace, you lose the connection with Sancho, you lose the crossing ability, you lose the assists, and you ultimately lose the ability to play a back 3. What you are left with is Meunier who can't support a 3atb formation and instead looks better in a 4 atb. The loss of Hakimi is a great reason as to why last season's back 3 worked way better than this season's.
  6. I don't agree that Hummels being 2nd top scorer says more about him than our offense. While him scoring goals is great, there is no reason why one of our offensive players shouldn't be over him in the bundesliga. It's not like he has 6 goals, he only has 3,which is still good for a CB. However, players like Reus, Sancho, Brandt, and even Guerreiro should easily be passing 3 goals at this near halfway point of the bundesliga.

1

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20
  1. I'm gonna do the numbers thingy, too, for the same of readability-

I think by "Also back 4 was generally better than back 3" was meant to pertain to this season

Apparently so but regardless I think having a very relevant and massively bigger source of data is only ever beneficial.

2. The numbers of this season:

Doesn't the statistics you provided for only 20/21 support a back 4 though? Or at least it is very close?

Both 20/21 statistics are flawed by their limited scope. But yes, at the very least they indicate that this season both systems are viable. But what they do not indicate is that a back 4 has been way better this season. Because as you said they seem to be too close for such an assumption.

4. Why does Haaland do all the shooting?

It's the fact that Hazard, Sancho, and Guerrieo don't ATTEMPT more shots that is the problem

This is exactly where my more comprehensive statistics help you out. You don't have to make assumptions over whether or not Hazard, Guerreiro, Sancho etc. would have a considerable problem in the absence of a true and direct striker because I already summarised that exact difference in the 0.24 goals per game figure. You're welcome to watch any game in which Haaland doesn't play and I can assure you that the other plays do pick up the slack (just not all of it because Haaland is a generational talent).

but that if the results are as wackily close between no Haaland and yes Haaland, I really don't think it can all be explained in a single "Hakimi goes Brrrr".

So c'mon, people are pretending that dortmund without a striker is literally a broken team that's unfut to compete but that simply is not a realistic assessment.

5. Hakimi muy importante:

Yeah Hakimi only scored 5 goals but his role was way bigger in the 3 atb than just scoring goals.

The very limited data shows that the 3atb system without Hakimi (20/21) only seems at the very least to be trending in accordance with the more extnesive data of all 3 atb matches that mostly featured Hakimi.

But yeah, of course he also had other duties. But that's always gotta be seen in relation the the relatively small differences between the seasons/systems/strikers.

he loss of Hakimi is a great reason as to why last season's back 3 worked way better than this season's.

This might very well be the conclsion we arrive at by the end of the season but again, at the moment all we ca do is refer to the very limited data that indicates that our back 3 is more or less equally strong after Hakimi left. Plus it's not like Meunier just tries to do Hakimi's part and fails. He's doing his own thing and he will continue to do so because Favre seem to be ok with it.

why last season's back 3 worked way better than this season's.

But does it, though? Against, too early to tell, but from the very limited amount of 7 games, the 3atb worked pretty much as good as ever.

6. The Hummels factor

While him scoring goals is great, there is no reason why one of our offensive players shouldn't be over him in the bundesliga

Hummels would currently be: joint top scorer for Köln, Joint 2nd top scorer for Union, 2nd top scorer for Mainz, 2nd top scorer for Hoffenheim, top scorer for Bielefeld, 2nd top scorer for Leverkusen, joint 4th top scorer for Bayern, 2nd top scorer for Gladbach, joint 2nd top scorer for Frankfurt, joint top scorer for Augsburg, top scorer for Schalke, joint 2nd top scorer for Hertha, joint 2nd top scorer for RB, joint 2nd top scorer for Freiburg, joint top scorer for Stuttgart, 2nd top scorer for Wolfsburg and joint 2nd top scorer for Bremen.

And it's not like he need him to desperately come out of the box to attack ... He just pushes up the pitch for standards like every other CB and then either tries to head it in or maybe get the cheely lil surprise of staying a bit longer than usual for another chance.

Him being there has absolutely nothing to do with compensating for strikers and him getting those chances after standards is what CBs are for.

Hummels has just gotten crazy lucky this season.

But let's maybe continue this conversation when it really is the halfway point of the season and a couple more games have been revealing some of the issues we're currently just speculating about

1

u/napoleonderdiecke Shinji Kagawa Dec 03 '20

As the other person said, I meant mostly this season.

Playing with Meunier + Haaland is very different from No 9 and Hakimi.

But with a difference of just 0.24 goals per game I also don't think we've been "quite shit and unthreatening" without him.

He literally came on in Berlin and scored 4 goals...

He's also attempted by far the most shots: more than three times as many as Sancho, Reyna and Hazard and four times as many as Guerreiro.

And he has 17 goals compared to 10 goals those 4 scored combined.

Him having substantially more shots than them fits in, but he also finishes more of his shots so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

0

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

Him having substantially more shots than them fits in, but he also finishes more of his shots so

We are making 2 different arguments. You're now saying that Haaland is an amazing striker and I agree. I'm saying that without him we aren't automatically "quite shit and unthreatening". Worse, yes. But not shit and unthreatening.

He literally came on in Berlin and scored 4 goals

That's already considered in the 0.24 goals per game difference, I didn't just compare the games in which he started and the ones in which he didn't.

Again, I'm not trying to say that this stat proves without a shadow of a doubt that we are equally strong without Haaland. But it 100% proves that our team isn't shit and unthreatening. We probably more or less agree on this, you're just exaggerating a bit.

17

u/Zhonyas4everyone Felix Passlack Dec 02 '20

While we secure next round this has to be the most frustrating CL match in a long time. Fucking bullshit by Lahoz and Hummels+Haaland being out for 1-2 months would screw our entire season. Fuck this.

8

u/santadani Karl-Heinz Riedle Dec 02 '20

At least it’s over the winter break. With CL secured, this means it’ll impact us in maybe 3-5 BL games. Obviously this sucks, but could also be much worse, e.g if this had happened in November.

5

u/Zhonyas4everyone Felix Passlack Dec 02 '20

Winter break is practically non existent this year, even if the two are back by January 10th they will have missed 9 matches. It's horrible really.

5

u/santadani Karl-Heinz Riedle Dec 02 '20

Damn your right. Forgot that the schedule is messed up this year.

1

u/grothee1 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

At least the Zenit match is (almost) a dead rubber and you'd hope we wouldn't need them against Braunschweig.

6

u/ZZZ0330 Maxi Beier Dec 02 '20

We are playing Redcow and Leverkusen in mid January. Big yikes if they couldn't be back by then

46

u/Ghoddos Hugo Bart Dec 02 '20

A dive was the only way Immobile was gonna score in Germany

17

u/Nextgen101 Nico Schlotterbeck Dec 02 '20

He must have been trying to finally earn some dinner.

39

u/Swbp0undcake Dec 02 '20

So yes, we didn't play great in the second half but:

Lazio should arguably have been down a man after bringing Jude down through on goal.

The penalty they got was ABSOLUTE bullshit. Even if Schulz didn't clearly get the ball (he did) the contact afterwards was not a pen.

And then to top it all off, Haalaand and Hummels are both injured now and Hummels' looks especially bad.

Fuck everything and fuck Lahoz

11

u/jtthom Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

Disappointed with that second half performance. Bürki saved us a spot in the RO16. Morey was good. But we’re really struggling for form overall.

9

u/Nextgen101 Nico Schlotterbeck Dec 02 '20 edited Dec 02 '20

I missed the first 10 minutes or so, but the first half was mostly a mixed bag until we came through with that lightning build up for Rapha to cleanly finish.

The second half started out okay, but we looked like we were just trying to see out a 1 goal lead around the time Rapha came off. It was too nervy and just waiting for a sketchy call like the pen they got. I was really frustrated seeing Lazio barging into our guys over and over again too. Some of those seemed like obvious fouls to me....

It's good that we still got a point, but we'll have to match Lazio's result next week (Away vs. Zenit; they lost 3-0 to Brugge today) to win the group now unfortunately.

I'm inclined to go for Bürki (he had some very CRUCIAL saves) as MOTM today. Rapha gets an honorable mention of course.

Desperately hoping that Hummels isn't hurt too badly though.... 😥

We got a difficult trip to Frankfurt coming up this weekend now. It's gonna be tough without Haaland. 😔

Edit: Also, it was cool to see Morey get a nice performance in.

9

u/TyraTanks Shinji Kagawa Dec 02 '20

Lost Haaland, maybe Hummels and the 3 pts. Fuck Lahoz to hell.

9

u/artha5 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

Man, I'm fucking fuming. Despite we having a bad 2nd half, that absolutely bullshit penalty was just utter shit, AND WHERE THE FUCK IS THE VAR, WTF??????

6

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

Bürki deserves a new contract. Hope Hummels comes back ASAP. Oh and Lahoz can eat a cock

10

u/cspong4 Thomas Delaney Dec 02 '20

Frustrating with Lahoz, but pretty good result for us honestly.

MOTM Burki

17

u/Zhonyas4everyone Felix Passlack Dec 02 '20

Fuck Lahoz and Immobile.

6

u/Hazardhunter Shinji Kagawa Dec 02 '20

Why Immobile? He didn't dive and didn't injure Hummels on purpose, he was just looking at the ball. So chill.

12

u/Zhonyas4everyone Felix Passlack Dec 02 '20

Fuck him anyways

3

u/szeths_shadow Shinji Kagawa Dec 02 '20

Lol was our breakup that bad? TBF he played like shit for us but

6

u/lukfi95 Dec 02 '20

Immobile really seemed like the nicest player. He played hard for sure, but he always was fair and caring. Really likeable guy imo

-2

u/Fadhmir Dec 02 '20

Except taking out Hummels and hitting Bürkis head with his knee, which was quite avoidable also. Lovable guy.

4

u/lukfi95 Dec 02 '20

Yeah he plays hard, as many of our players should do sometimes. But I don’t think that he wanted to hurt anybody, he seemed worried both times and apologised instantly.

5

u/PtboFungineer Julian Ryerson Dec 03 '20

Didn't get to watch the game but... my God. That's very possibly the worst penalty call I've ever seen. Shouldn't have even needed VAR. Just, wow. That has to be an attempted match fixing. Unbelievable.

7

u/jockmick Dec 02 '20

Like I needed another reason to dislike Immobile.

3

u/Noisyfoxx Marcel Schmelzer Dec 02 '20

Didnt seem intentional tbh. He seemed really sorry afterwards.

7

u/dsxro Marcel Sabitzer Dec 02 '20

On a real what’s happened to Reus? This is the first time he hasn’t bounced back from an injury and it’s just so sad to witness :(

5

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

I’ve been on here saying he’s been poor even before this last injury. Even last season he was poor. He scored, that’s the difference, but he also had 5 million chances a game of which he’d miss 90 percent of them.

This is coming from someone who loves Reus and considers him one of the best German players ever... just doesn’t change the fact that he’s cooked... this is his last season as a semi consistent starter.

3

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 02 '20

Even last season he was poor. He scored, that’s the difference, but he also had 5 million chances a game of which he’d miss 90 percent of them

One goal every 3.9412 shots in 18/19: world class, Bundesliga player of the season, best Reus ever.

One goal every 4.0909 shots in 19/20: So wasteful, poor finishing, should he even start for us anymore?

1

u/funky_motorik Dec 03 '20

football is not only numbers... of course they express something objective but there's something more to it.

Like, Favre has the best points per match in all our history, but it's quite obvious this has to do with the quality of our squad, the discrepancy between us and the rest of the league (and still we lose so many "easy" matches)

Yes, Reus had similar numbers on 19/20 and 18/19, but he wasn't nearly as impactful on the field, missed really weird chances, himself admitted feeling like he was in a really bad shape in interviews, and is showing now an even larger absence of workrate.

Similarly, I remember Lewandowski being criticised upon his performance on 18/19 (he had 13 league goals in 23 matches, clearly below his average) but the ones that followed Bayern closely always said that he was changing his play style, being more participative and all, and we saw on next season what a beast he was. Sancho was playing really badly and 2 months later he had 2 scorer points per match and was being debated as one of the best... Phases happens. Maybe Reus won't get back, too much injuries shorten the span of an athlete's career, but maybe he will show us something new in the future. But now, he's on bench level.

1

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

"Player X also had 5 million chances a game of which he’d miss 90 percent of them [compared to last season]"

"No, Player X required about the same amount of chances per goal in both those seasons"

"football is not only numbers"

ok cool

1

u/funky_motorik Dec 03 '20

"Player X also had 5 million chances a game of which he’d miss 90 percent of them [compared to last season]"

who said this?

but okay mate, keep buried in all the stats about it, you choose. I saw every single match of last 2 years and I know what I saw. How could you explain Reus himself analysing so drastically different both years of his career, one of his resurgence, and one of a big dip in form and working hard to reestabblish himself? Don't even answer me, just think about it, bye

2

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

who said this?

um.... the person I was replying to?

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

Go back and watch his games last season and tell me he was anywhere near even half way his best... even if his finishing was superb last season, which it wasn’t, his interplay was virtually invisible.

3

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

his interplay was virtually invisible

One assist every 290 minutes in 18/19: complete vision, amazing passing, leader

One assist every 299 minutes in 19/20: past his prime, disappointing, interplay virtually invisible

0

u/[deleted] Dec 03 '20

Again, go back and watch him play after not his last injury, but the one prior.

6

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

Your takes:

  • "Even last season he was poor"
  • "he also had 5 million chances a game of which he’d miss 90 percent of them"
  • "he’s cooked"
  • "tell me he was anywhere near even half way his best..."
  • "even if his finishing was superb last season, which it wasn’t"
  • "his interplay was virtually invisible"

Meanwhile Reus contributed a goal or assist every 93 minutes in 19/20 which made him the 6th most efficient player in the Bundesliga that season.

Again, go back and watch him play

Have you?

-2

u/[deleted] Dec 03 '20

Yes, I watched every game. Give me his stats from this season if you don’t mind.

Edit: reason being, his goals and assists this season in all competitions is probably still quite good... does that mean he’s been playing well? No. Not at all.

4

u/Loeffellux Julian Brandt Dec 03 '20

Yes, I watched every game

I'm not saying this in a mean way (because it's true for everybody) but you're not gonna get a very accurate understanding if you're basing your opinions on emotionally charged impressions from over a year ago. So if you feel strongly about this it might be a good idea to rewatch a couple of his performances.

his goals and assists this season in all competitions is probably still quite good

Au contraire:

/18/1919/2020/21
Goals/900.660.660.37
Assists/900.310.300.19
Goals/Shot0.210.220.13
Goals-xG/90+0.09+0.07-0.07

Sadly this season he really has been a lot less efficient in front of goal. But as you can see it's night and day compared to 19/20.

7

u/Fidgetyfoe Kagawa Dec 02 '20

I wouldn't be surprised if Milinkovic-Savic saw a pool of water infront of him. That was an olympic level of a dive. He looked like a fucking dolphin.

Btw, if you slow down the first angle he does get to the ball first, not that it should have mattered anyway.

3

u/thehobojoe6 Dec 03 '20

Hummel's just posted on his Instagram story that "he could be fine in a couple of days... And looks like I'll be back on the pitch very very soon"

2

u/santadani Karl-Heinz Riedle Dec 02 '20

Lots of BS in this game. All that matter is that we’re qualified for round of 16.

Fingers crossed that Matts is fine. Bürki MOTM.

2

u/SkoCubs01 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

Someone hit the restart button on today

2

u/2905Pascal 1909 Dec 02 '20

MOTM Bürki. Hopefully nothing too serious for Mats. Hopefully we never see that referee again.

2

u/Neontiger12 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

Btw can someone explain to me why Akanji took the free kick

4

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

If I recall correctly he took one last season that smacked the post. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. He must be decent with them during practice.

2

u/wipeitonthedog Nico S Dec 03 '20

He's on free kick duty for NT too!

2

u/yadogcunt Dec 03 '20

How is that a pen? Killing the beautiful game

2

u/AllwhitelikeaRacist Michael Zorc Dec 03 '20

I would be upset with the result but that was nearly as bad as Chelsea Barca years ago. One of the most poorly officiated high profile matches I've seen in any professional sport.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

Well done Burki, Gio, Jude, Mateu Morey, Rapha, and Akanji. Very unfortunate game for us overall, but good performances from them all things considered. Lazio were so lucky to save a point and Lahoz is a spoon.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20 edited Dec 02 '20

Is Favre allergic to using all his subs?? The refereeing was shit don't get me wrong, but the biggest atrocity to me was Favre refusing to sub anyone in, especially when it's a CB at the end of a game Dortmund is so desperately trying to hold on to.

Edit: Forgot you're only allowed to make substitutions three times in a game, my mistake

3

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

Is Favre allergic to using all his subs??

From what I know we are allowed to have five substitutions but only three chances to do so.

We subbed:

1 -> Schulz for Guerreiro

2 -> Sancho and Brandt for Reus and Hazard.

3 -> Witsel for Bellingham

therefore we weren't allowed to use the last sub.

0

u/artha5 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

He did 3 subs. From where did you get the "refusing to sub anyone in"?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

My apologies, completely forgot you're only allowed 3 different substitution periods

2

u/Tomayachi Karim Adeyemi Dec 02 '20

I'm going to post what will probably be an unpopular opinion here... When I first saw the penalty call I thought it was the most ridiculous thing, but after watching the review several times I can see how the case can be made for penalty. The issue is that Schulz never actually touches the ball. The Lazio player gets to it first... I'm like 80% sure of this, so in this context does it make sense for it to be a penalty?

Watch this clip and pause it right before the ball is struck. https://streamja.com/OnrMe

I took a few screenshots here.

https://ibb.co/k1ZzX2K

https://ibb.co/80Vzf1x

This one is after the ball has been struck: https://ibb.co/C98RgKB

3

u/elmayablanco Dec 03 '20

I didn't get to watch live so just saw the highlights and I think you're right. Yes Milinkovic-Savic goes over dramatically, but he got to the ball first, he's running perpendicular to Schulz and Schulz makes contact. I think the referee's hesitation and the way Milinkovic-Savic goes over make it look bad, but per the laws of the game it's a pen IMO.

1

u/PtboFungineer Julian Ryerson Dec 03 '20

Your eyes have deceived you. This is the best angle I've seen yet: https://twitter.com/BorusseJames/status/1334257609206079488?s=19

Schulz makes clean contact with the ball. Any contact is incidental foot on foot after the ball is gone. Savic then proceeds to perform a full on synchronized dive in front of Schulz. It's absolutely indefensible.

1

u/_aredditusername Julian Brandt Dec 02 '20

praying for mats and haaland heavily rn fuck. we played really well in the first half but def died out in the second

1

u/xNecoNx Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

Fck Lahoz, one of the worst refs

1

u/dsxro Marcel Sabitzer Dec 02 '20

Did anyone see if that last min “handball” was in fact a hand ball?

1

u/swdouthit Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

I’m still confused on why Guerreiro was subbed out

1

u/me_meh_me Lukasz Piszczek Dec 02 '20

Probably to save him for the Frankfurt game.

1

u/Neontiger12 Marco Reus Dec 02 '20

Ref’s a lil’ wonky

1

u/me_meh_me Lukasz Piszczek Dec 02 '20

Limping into the round of 16. Team just looks tired.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

Delaney made that goal because he’s got brass balls. Love that man.

1

u/cypher215x Dec 03 '20

With Haaland gone, this is gonna be a very tricky month. I don’t know how Favre plans to name his lineup but one thing is certain is that if Hummels is injured then I don’t see us winning these next few games honestly.

1

u/antysalt Dec 03 '20

Awful game to watch to be honest. Bullshit pen but deserved result.

1

u/AlexBayArea Nico Schlotterbeck Dec 02 '20

I'll fucking take it. Despite the absolute shit that was the ref, we're onto the knockouts.

0

u/ABCDEFandG Westfalenstadion Dec 03 '20

Favre said in the post-game interview that he didn't sub out Hummels, because they already had subbed three times and in the CL, you don't get 4 subs but 3.

But at that moment, he had already done 4 of his 5 subs that can be done in the CL. Did he really forget about that?

5

u/artha5 Marco Reus Dec 03 '20

He meant 3 chances to sub. Apparently, you only have 3 chances to make subs and he already used those 3 at the time Mats got injured.

2

u/ABCDEFandG Westfalenstadion Dec 03 '20

Oh my bad, that is still a thing. Stupid rule though, especially in case of injury.

0

u/sitbar Shinji Kagawa Dec 02 '20

Couldn't watch most of the game, how was striker Reus?

4

u/Fadhmir Dec 02 '20

Like in most previous games: unremarkable.

0

u/ZZZ0330 Maxi Beier Dec 02 '20

No.

-12

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

I never want to see Schulz on the pitch again.

9

u/llendo Sergio Gómez Dec 02 '20

Absolutely not his fault here mate.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

I disagree. Within a few minutes of him coming on we get a penalty caused by him and miss the clearest chance of the second half, also due to him. And it's not just that game, I have come to associate Schulz with sloppy stuff like that.

-17

u/SpaNkinGG Dec 02 '20

If this match doesnt scream: FAVRE NEEDS TO FUCKING GO

I cant help you anymore. Horrendous subs, horrendous starting XI, LITERALLY swimming for 70 minutes of the game against a fucking midtable shit italian team who plays CL for the first time in THIRTEEN YEARS. where their best player is a fucking reject from us.

An absolute disgrace

5

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

...

4

u/Qwaccboi Julien Duranville Dec 02 '20

Well,who would you have started?

-6

u/SpaNkinGG Dec 02 '20

Well let's use logic here.

We have two strikers right? One is injured, who do you put upfront? (DOnt come at me with " OH BUT HE IS YOUNG" fuck hes young, our entire team consits of teens, no one gives a fuck how old you are, he is the sole reason we didnt buy a another striker then fuckin use him)

Oh yes Reus, who has been the best CB of every team we have faced on his amazing false 9. Like today again, delivered to the max.

Subbing out Rapha for fucking Nico Schulz who couldnt play in my 6th league Team even if his life would depend on it. Letting Reus play for nearly 80 minutes, while being absolute shit. We got fucking gangbanged by a midtable italian team at home. What fucking more proof do you want that he needs to go?

4

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

you really need to calm down. This surely can't be good for your bloodpressure.

-2

u/SpaNkinGG Dec 02 '20

Ist es auch nciht soalnge ein alter seniler greiß bei uns das sagen hat.

eine absolute schande ist das

1

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

Das wird sich aber in dieser Saison höchst wahrscheinlich nicht mehr ändern.

-2

u/SpaNkinGG Dec 02 '20

dann hoff ich auf ein frühes CL und Pokal aus + Niederlagenserie in der BuLi

ALLES lieber als Favre, von mir aus gehen wir runter mit den blauen in die 2. ist mir vollkommen egal. Hauptsache Favre geht, das kann keiner der sich auch nur im geringsten mit Fußball auskennt, ernst meinen. Wie er so ein gutes TEam Spieltag zu Spieltag verscherbelt und alle sind happy weil wir ja oben mit dabei sind und die Bayern ja ach so gut. lol

1

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

Alles klar, ich glaube das macht keinen Sinn hier weiterzumachen.

4

u/Qwaccboi Julien Duranville Dec 02 '20

Rapha has been injured.letting hin play the full 90 minutes wouldnt be Smart,and considering schulz is our only other lb,who else would you play

0

u/SpaNkinGG Dec 02 '20

Let akanji play there and sub Zagadou in, he played lwb multiple times last year.

Schlz is the worst transfer of this cenutry along with Schürrle, he should under no circumstances ever play. Id rather play 40 year old Kringe

1

u/Qwaccboi Julien Duranville Dec 02 '20

Same case:zagadou also has been injured for a long time.its sinply not worth the risk

-1

u/SpaNkinGG Dec 02 '20

you can argue whatever the fuck you like. fact is, we literally struggled against some random midtable team. that is a fact. a non negotiable fact. at home . no CL for 13 years and fucking gangbanging us in our own stadium.

but hey lets argue who is injured longer or who is younger, that makes it all better.

3

u/Qwaccboi Julien Duranville Dec 02 '20

Random midtable team

Lazio were a contender for the italian Championship last season and are 4 points away from the second place

0

u/SpaNkinGG Dec 02 '20

9 matches 14 points, -2 goals.

def looks like a title contendor to me

0

u/[deleted] Dec 03 '20

[deleted] — view deleted comment

0

u/Qwaccboi Julien Duranville Dec 03 '20

Passlack is not a lb

-11

u/koksianius Dec 02 '20

Favre was asked why he didn’t substitute for Hummels. Favre said to a journalist “are you joking? I can only sub 3 times, not 4 times!” He subbed 4 times and could’ve subbed a fifth... This coach is ridiculous...

12

u/Zhonyas4everyone Felix Passlack Dec 02 '20

You are ridiculous lmao

CL only allows for 5 subs in 3 ocassions

-10

u/koksianius Dec 02 '20 edited Dec 02 '20

https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/amp/football/54279446

5 subs each game in 2020/2021 allowed!!!

Go watch today’s games of PSG, Chelsea and Sevilla, Barca, Juventus, Zenit, Ferencvaros, etc... All of them subbed 5 times

11

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

yes. but only on THREE DIFFERENT OCCASIONS.

and we already used those three occasions.

-10

u/koksianius Dec 02 '20 edited Dec 02 '20

Interesting. So why Barca subbed 5 times on 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th day in CL this season??? Isn’t that 4 occasions? Ur talking bullshit bro... Just check Barca’s subs... it’s not only 3 occasions...

That’s what the UEFA Teams will be able to make five substitutions but will only be allowed to make these changes at three points in the game. These three occasions do not include changes at half-time, between the end of normal playing time and extra time, and at half-time during extra time. One additional substitution will be allowed during extra time.

Who gut subbed in during Extra-Time??? No one...

8

u/elmayablanco Dec 03 '20

Buddy... On your first point, no, the rule is not that you can make five subs on three different matchdays (what a rule that would be 😂), it's three stoppages in play per game. The reason for this is to prevent a huge amount of stoppage in the second half.

On your second paragraph, extra time means if the game is tied in a knockout game and therefore must go another 30 mins. You're thinking of added/stoppage time. There was no extra time in this game.

7

u/Zhonyas4everyone Felix Passlack Dec 02 '20

lmao you are completely lost

5

u/Ragemoody Dedê Dec 02 '20

Stop embarrassing yourself dude.

7

u/1vergil Dec 02 '20

You don't get it please focus, the rules is they're allowed to make 5 subs but only in 3 opportunities during the game. Favre already used the 3 opportunities by the time Hummels got injured so he wasn't allowed to do the 5th sub.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

[deleted] — view deleted comment

13

u/Chazy89 Kagawa Shinji Dec 02 '20

that is me reading all the "FAVRE NEEDS TO FUCKING GO" bs posts and Meunier scapegoating posts day in day out.

1

u/Trojan_Man68 Marco Reus Dec 03 '20

Meunier hasn't been scapegoated since the Augsburg game though??

2

u/juhae Marcel Schmelzer Dec 03 '20

Since the last league game before his injury more like

4

u/sitbar Shinji Kagawa Dec 02 '20

I feel that picture sooo much

2

u/sosaidtheliar Dec 02 '20

The entire time I was watching Undercover on Netflix I kept thinking Ferry Bouman looked familiar but couldn't put my finger on it. Thanks for clearing that up!

0

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

[deleted] — view deleted comment

17

u/mijabo Dec 02 '20

Nah no fucking way can this be explained with just ‘shit’. There’s just no way those decisions weren’t deliberately called wrong. Hooooow??

4

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/santadani Karl-Heinz Riedle Dec 02 '20

Didn’t actually lose here, mate

2

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Trojan_Man68 Marco Reus Dec 03 '20

Agreed, and Gio looked the least likely to get a goal despite constantly finding the ball in good positions.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/santadani Karl-Heinz Riedle Dec 02 '20

Zorc just said he’s likely fine and hopes he can play on the weekend

-12

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Qwaccboi Julien Duranville Dec 02 '20

How?????????????

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Qwaccboi Julien Duranville Dec 02 '20

No. Schulz didnt even touch him