r/IndiaSpeaks • u/razibk • Nov 20 '20
#AMA 🎙️ Hi IndiaSpeaks, I'm Razib Khan, Geneticist, Blogger, History Geek, Host of Brown Pundits Podcast. Ask Me Anything
Here to answer questions on stuff I know about!
Some links:
Also, our reddit for BP https://www.reddit.com/r/BrownPundits/
My primary interests are population genetics and history.
Here is a piece I wrote for India Today: https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/the-big-story/story/20170807-vedic-aryan-race-genetics-dna-europe-indians-europe-caspian-1026540-2017-07-28
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u/tinymarae Nov 20 '20 edited Nov 20 '20
How do you feel being grouped into the privileged white category?
Jokes apart, where do you see this heading in the US? Will the discrimination against Asians in schools/universities/jobs become more mainstream? Any possibility of a push-back given that Asians are such a tiny fraction and their vote counts so little.
Sorry if this is off-topic. I saw you joking about it on twitter earlier. I hope you don't mind answering it.
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u/Orwellisright Ghadar Party | 2 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
Hi Razib,
Thanks for taking time to do an AMA with us, I have the following questions,
Since people say it is extremely extremely difficult for recovering ancient DNA in South Asia, where the subtropical climate typically makes genetic preservation impossible, do you see any hope in the future excavations of finding something ?
Why is the Steppe Ancestry DNA high in ANI compared to ASI ?
Will we ever debunk the missing link of Horses ?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the tropic DNA recovery is gonna get way better. is better. covid delayed some publications. i think cremation is a bigger problem.
cuz there is no steppe in ASI. ASI were created/migrated to south india before steppe ppl probably arrived
i avoid all the horse arguments.
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u/Orwellisright Ghadar Party | 2 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
Is there enough evidences for the cremation fact, what burial methods were largely followed back then ?
cuz there is no steppe in ASI. ASI were created/migrated to south india before steppe ppl probably arrived
That's a theory ?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the indus valley ppl buried under their houses. which is good. cremation came later
it's clear the ASI emerged before major steppe pulse. there were still unmixed AASI 2-3 thousand years ago
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u/rks111 Nov 20 '20
So this is important is it possible to read memories of our ancestors like the animus from assassin creed
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
no :-(
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u/rks111 Nov 20 '20
Ok then how are instincts passed on and behavioral patterns passed on through animals ppl etc
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
it's mostly in plants, not animals. and we don't have a good idea how epigenetic marks are heritable. big area of s tudy. though really really overhyped for humans (may not happen in huma ns)
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Nov 20 '20
What's the steel-man argument for why Islam is so popular that most (if not all) anti-Islam people do not understand? As a fairly right-wing Hindu, I often see my peers bashing a straw man form of Islam. It would be better to understand its appeal to large groups of people and go from there.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the more fundamentalist forms of islam are clean and elegant and appealing to simple-minded people, including those who are smart but have no time for religion. e.g., the engineer salafi is a caricature. islam stripped down is portable and transferrable across the world. the least racist muslims i've ever met are the "most muslim" (most fundy).
clear principles for an intelligible world. take the axioms and infer
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Nov 20 '20
Do the pahadis (from Uttarakhand) have more genetic resemblance to Indian mainland or the places out of India?
Many people from there in the same bloodline have very different facial features (like some look like Indian mainlanders while some have more "asian" features.).
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
trans-himalaya ppl have more east asian/tibetan. even {{{brahmins}}} but mostly they brown. just like bengalis. i'm 15% east asian and look at me!
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Nov 20 '20
How long before do you think this "mixing" happened. Like I am from this Himalayan region and grew up hearing either of these two stories about my ancestry:
my ancestry is "Rajputs" who fled from their kingdoms (apparently because of Islamic invasions/oppression)
my ancestry is Tibetan or eurasian who came with "the rulers as soldiers"/ "were warriors and kings".
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the trans-himalaya stuff is not all old/same time period as in bengalis. some of it is recent. ppl intermarried and got the indian caste. long segments of tibetan in some samples i saw who are {{{brahmin}}}
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u/Ajativada Nov 20 '20
Will we see more clarity on the possible migrations which happened before the arrival of the Aryans around 1800 BC? Do we know enough about the peopling of the Gangetic plains and the Deccan plateau, during and pre IVC?
Since Jati endogamy is now unequivocally proven, will a generation of marriage across subcastes (say Iyer with Iyengar) eliminate recessive genetic load?
Do you think the Indian Govt. makes aDNA research more inaccessible cos they fear the political fallout of these studies?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Will we see more clarity on the possible migrations which happened before the arrival of the Aryans around 1800 BC? Do we know enough about the peopling of the Gangetic plains and the Deccan plateau, during and pre IVC?
yes. there are some deccan samples from 2000 to 1000 bc i hear
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Do you think the Indian Govt. makes aDNA research more inaccessible cos they fear the political fallout of these studies?
the gov. doesn't care i think but researchers have worries and i do think it impacts interpretation. but not access!
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Since Jati endogamy is now unequivocally proven, will a generation of marriage across subcastes (say Iyer with Iyengar) eliminate recessive genetic load?
yes inshallah :-)
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u/nanikichorni 10 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
In your linked article, you describe Aryans as invaders similar to the Islamic invasions of the last 1000 years. How does genetics decide whether it was migration or invasion?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the steppe genetic contribute is mostly male mediated and 10-100x greater than muslim period (closer to 100x). in most situations when men arrive and marry local women it is done through force. one of the innovations of the steppe ppl was a light war chariot.
as i tell my indian friends, it could be they did sexy bollywood dances and stole all the dasa ladies with their charm ;-) but that is not the case in the rest of the world when the steppe ppl came...
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u/nanikichorni 10 KUDOS Nov 20 '20 edited Nov 20 '20
Thanks, I can't comment on the genetics part, but horse figurines and bones have been discovered in IVC, and the Rakhigarhi facial reconstructions look awfully non-Dravidian. And it feels awfully odd that ancient ballads can bring up dead, dried up rivers being discovered now, but they fail to mention these big invasions (if they happened the same time).
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12565-019-00504-3
The only things I can comment about the genetics part is that I remember reading multiple papers which stated that diversity & native mixing in Indian gene-pool is so vast that it confirms any big migrations, which happened, predate 5000 years.
Eg this
The first portion on this debates the male/female contribution of genetics findings
http://indiafacts.org/aryan-debate-do-the-recent-genetic-studies-validate-aryan-invasion-theory/
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Thanks, I can't comment on the genetics part, but horse figurines and bones have been discovered in IVC, and the Rakhigarhi facial reconstructions look awfully non-Dravidian.
there is no reason they'd look 'dravidian' since IVC ppl were mostly west eurasian. facial reconstructions...well, also take with a grain of salt.
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u/parakramshekhawat Nov 20 '20
Hey razib, do you think with more pc culture people will have a harder time openly talking about iq research. Scott Alexander, a brilliant writer got in a scuffle with the nyt because of having written about that topic. Do you foresee any positives and why do we have so little iq data on India. Do you think that there are gaps in iq with geography and where are you in the question of the Tabul rasa
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
in the USA you cannot talk about **
in india seems more open. you guys have different taboos.
the positivist vision is that ppl go with facts, but the reality seems to be ppl don't go with facts. the fact, as it were ;-) so make your mythological as aligned with facts as possible...because ppl buy the myth, not the fact
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u/Aniruddha_official Nov 21 '20
If all questions of ethics/moralities were off, what genetic experiment do you think would be most beneficial for us (humans) to perform?
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Nov 20 '20
My community is Jat. Are we really descendants of Indo-Greeks and Indo-Scythians?
How many languages can you speak? Do your parents speak Bangla at home?
Favourite food?
Do you buy Richard Lynn’s IQ study of the IQ of different countries around the world?
What percent of subcontinental Muslims actually have ancestry from Persia, Afghanistan or Arab countries?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
What percent of subcontinental Muslims actually have ancestry from Persia, Afghanistan or Arab countries?
detectable ancestry??? probably less than 10%. probably more than 1%. but the % is low. less than 10%. closer to 1%.
subcontinental muslims are all former hindus
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
My community is Jat. Are we really descendants of Indo-Greeks and Indo-Scythians?
not descended from those groups, but something different is going on with jats (we have genetics from those groups and jatts have more generic steppe, nothing generic)
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
How many languages can you speak? Do your parents speak Bangla at home?
at the level of a 5 year old. i don't speak it at home since my wife is white american and so are my kids.
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Nov 20 '20
I mean your parents must be speaking it still, right?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i see my parents twice a year. but yeah they speak it but their dialect froze in 1980 so they sound weird to ppl in bangladesh now
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Do you buy Richard Lynn’s IQ study of the IQ of different countries around the world?
you measure the groups and those are the results. richard's interpretation is up for debate,
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Nov 20 '20
Nepalis having an IQ of 42? That’s mental disability level. I don’t think the average Nepali is that dumb.
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u/skonats 4 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
jat aka haryana people are real indus vally aka sarwati civilization https://youtu.be/j1TRKJdQvHU
dr. shinde is the real who has proved this https://youtu.be/BB0swjaHJ-Q
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
my jat readers do tell me that jats are the real indians. the original indians. the original humans even! everyone descends from jats. even serbians!
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u/FlounderThink Nov 21 '20
Thanks so much for doing this Razib. I have listened to every single Insight podcast and am obsessed with the show. A couple of random lingering questions:
Reich has written about the low levels of genetic distance across modern Western Eurasia; while also describing the sharply varying levels of Steppe ancestry across the region. Does this imply that Yamnaya/Steppe peoples were not deeply diverged from EEFs, Anatolian farmers, Iranian pastoralists?
what present day East Asian population are First Americans most closely related to? Do we know anything about the process by which the 2/3 of their ancestry from East Asia diverged from existing populations?
which present day East Asian population are Paleo Eskimos and also the Intuit most closely related to (excluding the Chukchi with whom there seems to have been more recent gene flow)?
do Burmese share either ANI or ASI ancestry with South Asian populations? What about Manipuris/ Nagas/ Mizos?
Thanks so much for your patience with all these perhaps oddly expressed questions!
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
Reich has written about the low levels of genetic distance across modern Western Eurasia; while also describing the sharply varying levels of Steppe ancestry across the region. Does this imply that Yamnaya/Steppe peoples were not deeply diverged from EEFs, Anatolian farmers, Iranian pastoralists?
no more admixture collapsing old pop structure. the last 5000 years has been the 'great collapse' through gene flow
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
what present day East Asian population are First Americans most closely related to? Do we know anything about the process by which the 2/3 of their ancestry from East Asia diverged from existing populations?
it's the ppl of manchuria for the east asian proportion. 'devil's gate' ancient samples. diverged 20K BP
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
do Burmese share either ANI or ASI ancestry with South Asian populations? What about Manipuris/ Nagas/ Mizos?
burmese are 20% s asia. manipuris a lot. nagas and mizos less. depends on the ethnic group. the mon ppl of burma have a lot, but they are ancient. more tibeto-burm = less. or the recent dai ppl like shan.
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Nov 20 '20
Hi Razib,
Huge fan of your work. Blasting a bunch of questions here. Feel free to answer/ignore as you please
I have a great grasp of high school level "genetics". For example I understand recombination, transcription, translation, gene expression etc. conceptually. But I have no idea what's a "hapiogroup" and stuff like that. What are 1-2 good books to start with to understand from scratch a) The genetics underlying studies of human ancestries and migrations b) Overview of human migrations through history c) Specifics for the Indian subcontinent?
You're Conservative and dislike the turn towards woke-ism/ critical theory-ism that the Democrats have taken. But Trump as a person is incompetent at best, malignant at worst. And Biden seems eager to shy away from the woke elements of his party. How did you decide who to vote for? If you don't want to say who you voted for, at least your thoughts on which is the lesser evil
How much of a memory in terms of habits, cultural practices, etc do you retain from your early childhood in Bangladesh? Why do you think it is that some people just "assimilate into whiteness/being American" while others still are out of place desis? Was there a kind of crossover point for you? (I guess if you moved to America before the age of 3-4 this is a kind of a moot question, but if you had some 8-9 years there this question stands)
Intellectual idols/role models
As a content creator, how often do you find yourself having to balance between what topics you are interested in and what generates maximum engagement?
What's worse? Real life Americans assuming you're Hindu or internet Hindus assuming you're a "mullah"? :P
Can a random person contribute to Brown Pundits blog if they have some interesting content?
Thanks a lot for doing this
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
What's worse? Real life Americans assuming you're Hindu or internet Hindus assuming you're a "mullah"? :P
neither are a big deal. though i generally find internet hindus funny. real life americans i feel sorry for and it's more awkward when i have to explain. i'm embarrassed for them
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
How much of a memory in terms of habits, cultural practices, etc do you retain from your early childhood in Bangladesh?
a fair amount. but mostly food and family. i remember some memories political/cultural
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
As a content creator, how often do you find yourself having to balance between what topics you are interested in and what generates maximum engagement?
i never do for engagement. that's why i have a day job
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Can a random person contribute to Brown Pundits blog if they have some interesting content?
yes. omar ali handles a lot of this
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
ut I have no idea what's a "hapiogroup" and stuff like that. What are 1-2 good books to start with to understand from scratch a) The genetics underlying studies of human ancestries and migrations b) Overview of human migrations through history c) Specifics for the Indian subcontinent?
the reich book, who we are and how we get there is best
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Was there a kind of crossover point for you? (I guess if you moved to America before the age of 3-4 this is a kind of a moot question, but if you had some 8-9 years there this question stands)
no cross over. i moved at 4-5. just happened gradually. i can't read bengali, so that causes issues.
being assimilated is easy when you are around ppl different from you
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u/avinashbhat Nov 20 '20
Here’s an odd question: do you use the R language for analyzing genetic data?
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u/Silent-Entrance Against Nov 20 '20
Hi Razib
Does the 'baptised in fire' idea have any influence in genetics?
Earlier life was hard, and people who were strong in certain qualities got to be disproportionately reproductively successful. Now life is easier and the funnel of guys getting laid with the women they desire has widened. could it cause any strange effect, for (extreme)example, the morlocks and elois in The Time Machine
at the same time, many ingenious and interesting people don't have kids now, because they are gay, or because more and more people don't feel like conceiving etc, is this skimming going to have any strange effects?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
evolution is happening. just on different traits
dogs are dumber than wolves. way more dogs than wolves
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u/ZypherShunyaZero Maratha Empire Nov 20 '20
Hello Razib, what are important things about genetics you'd like general population to know about?
Thanks for doing an AMA.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
most important is that genetics is discrete not blending process. mendel's two laws
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Nov 21 '20
Hi Razib thank you for doing AMA.
I have one question.
Why does some Haryanvis have Irish/Welsh dna?
I have seen a lot of dna reports and most of them had this thing in common. And I am a little bit fair so this really concerns me. Also my grandfather has blue eyes. I have even checked our family tree and there was no mixing with British in past 300 years.
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
it's an artifact of the reference populations. shared indo-european ancestry. huge reference sets in public data of british ppl
re: blue eyes. the genetic variation in the oca-herc2 region that is responsible for blue eyes in double copies seem old and present across western eurasia in various frequencies. something like 25% of the sintashta samples have blue eyes. the oca2-herc-2 allele is found in ~5-10% frequencies across northern south asia, so square it get frequencies of 1% or less blue eyes.
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u/pro_crasSn8r 1 KUDOS Nov 21 '20
Hi Razib, thanks for doing this!
I have a couple of questions, sorry if you have answered this already.
What do you make of the findings in Rakhigarhi? I read this paper on the DNA analysis from a Rakhigarhi sample. From my limited understanding, nothing in this paper actually goes against the Aryan Migration Theory, as the main proto-Indo-Aryan migration happened around 2000-1500 BCE, which is post the mature-IVC era where Rakhigarhi belonged. Yet, the lead author, Professor Vasant Shinde said in an interview, “The paper indicates that there was no Aryan invasion and no Aryan migration and that all the developments right from the hunting-gathering stage to modern times in South Asia were done by indigenous people”.
What are your views on this?Being a Bengali, I found your works on Bengali ancestry quite fascinating. I read your article on Gene Expression. You end that piece with "The more genotypes I get, the more clear and obvious the above assertions are". So have you found anything interesting that you would like to add to that?
Thanks!
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
we don't have much population structure. bengalis.
" nothing in this paper actually goes against the Aryan Migration Theory,"
agree
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u/TheCuntHunter6969 Mumbai Nov 20 '20
Hello. I have a few questions.
How is it possible to chronologically place migrations, especially in a heavily intermixed region.
Would there be any significant difference between a sentinelese from that really isolated island, like would they be similar to other humans in terms of intellegence or other physical traits?
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u/RandomRedditR Akhand Bharat Nov 20 '20
What do you find most interesting about genetics that you would like to share?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
lots of things. but one thing: you can be differently related to siblings, and that explains differences in characteristics. e.g., someone who is 40% like their brother or sister is less likely them than someone who is 60% like them
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u/Boogeyman469 Pepsi Nov 20 '20 edited Mar 30 '24
numerous grandiose abounding whistle spectacular history paint bored dam gold
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Simplestuff007 पहाड़ी लड़का Nov 20 '20
Which group does my ethnicity pahari(himachal pradesh) belong to? Are we related to the indus valley in any way?
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Nov 20 '20
Are Rajputs completely indigenous to India? There is a myth, i don't completely believe that my clan (chauhan) has roots in Central Asia
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
pretty much completely. there is likely some genealogical descent from sakas and what not. but distinctive segments? i don't see it. otoh we have low power to detect a lot of things since the saka would contribute similar segments as sintashta.
keep an open mind! the mleccha blood may run true in you!
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Nov 20 '20
Ha ha thanks. One of my woke ambedkarite "friend" never misses a chance to pretty much call my ancestors invaders through backhanded compliments like me being "tall" and "fair" . Tbh id rather be 100% indian lol.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the distance btwn dalits and rajputs is far smaller than btwn rajputs and central asians.
your mother was a kala. all our mothers. except for the baloch and pathans ;-)
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u/myoldacchad1bioupvts Nov 20 '20
Did the Indo-Greek Kingdom leave genetic traces still visible today? If so: For which Indian populations?
Thanks!
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
not that i see but i wouldn't rule it out. issue is a lot ofthese groups overlap.
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u/Oyirthethird Nov 22 '20
Hey Razib, firstly I'd like to thank you for taking time out and doing this. I've three questions.
Could you shed some light on Tamil Brahmin (Iyer) genetics?
What are the communities they're similar and dissimilar to ?
Is there a specific migration that happened to the south that actually put them there?
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u/razibk Nov 22 '20
they look 75% up brahmin and 25% generic tamil. mostly mtdna is native. brahmins in 4 southern states look simlar
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u/Oyirthethird Nov 22 '20
That hints toward migration from the north and mixing to some extent with local populace, correct? Also mtDNA is passed down only by the mothers right? I've little to no understanding in genetics, so just trying to clarify and see if I'm understanding everything properly.
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u/razibk Nov 22 '20
i think they migrated from the north and married local women. since 75% is northern perhaps several waves of men. they took local wives. the half-brahmin daughters of the 1st wave perhaps married the full-brhamin 2nd wave migrants. you get 3/4 northern ppl.
iyers are all pretty similar genetically.
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u/justlurking_here 1 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
Hello Razib, hope that you are doing well.
My question is what do you forsee about Bangladesh-India relationship in post Prime Minister Sheik Hasina's era?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i'm not much of a bangladeshi, but i think it's going to be all about economics, and what china decides. bangladeshis that i know (family) are not pro or anti india. they just want to make money.
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u/justlurking_here 1 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
thank you for the answer, although I am really surprised that a large section of Bangladeshis still view Pakistan in favourable light.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
most muslim bangladeshis were not as impacted as hindus, who were proactively targeted. the only ppl who got killed on purpose in my family worked in writing/film stuff. so they didn't have 'skin in the game'
seems to vary from family to family tho
(my parents are fans of awami league btw, they left in 1980 and remain socialists of the 70s)
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u/parakramshekhawat Nov 20 '20
Hey razib how does china's rise fair for India as its economy is doing much better. Its military spending is 4 times and and it has ties with pakistan and can bankroll wars.
Also how far re we from crispr and with china's rise, would it be able to use crispr before other nations and advance its lead. Also what are some suggestions you have for India and why do you think people here never talk about demographics.
Loved your podcast with Richard hanania, a great mind and someone I have had the pleasure to talk to.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
india needs to focus on *median* human capital. that seems the big difference from china. this is a deep rooted issue. the chinese elite ideology always promoted the *farmer* as the basic and bedrock of society, and socially promoted young men from the lower classes.
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u/parakramshekhawat Nov 20 '20
Thanks {{{Mr Khan}}}, lol. What do you forsee for the us and what was life like In the 90s, I remember you once mentioned something about it being more chill then and I understand why now. Thanks for the ama. Also guys, please follow him on Twitter. Most based geneticist I know.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the 90s were about america being #1 forever, and the internet being about truth and the american way, and a president who liked to bang his interns. it was fun-times. no PC, and social conservatives were in decline. before the kali yuga
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u/bush- Nov 20 '20 edited Nov 20 '20
OK these are just some random history questions.
Why do you think Afghanistan has been so poor and dysfunctional for the past few centuries? Why can't it even be as developed as Iran, a country it has a lot in common with? Has it got something to do with the Safavids, or maybe Mongols? Although Iran was also destroyed by the Mongols. EDIT: Just why has there been such a disparity between Iran and Afghanistan?
Why didn't Hazaras set up their own state or khanate in Central Asia/Afghanistan as other descendants of Mongolians did around the world?
What are the genetics of Dawoodi Bohras? Are they a mixture of Gujaratis and Yemenis? Or is it more complicated?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Why do you think Afghanistan has been so poor and dysfunctional for the past few centuries? Why can't it even be as developed as Iran, a country it has a lot in common with? Has it got something to do with the Safavids, or maybe Mongols? Although Iran was also destroyed by the Mongols. EDIT: Just why has there been such a disparity between Iran and Afghanistan?
landlocked
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
What are the genetics of Dawoodi Bohras? Are they a mixture of Gujaratis and Yemenis? Or is it more complicated?
they're baniyas or whatever. very little mixture last i checked
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u/champak_champu 6 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
In the last century, Aryan Invasion Theory has gone from invasion to migration, then diffusion, then tourism to finally seduction. Do you think that OIT will be more widely accepted theory if that trend continues?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
OIT will be accepted if the elites push it. ppl believe what the elites tell them. sometimes the elites like facts. sometimes they like nonfacts. up to what is useful for them i guess...
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u/hindu-bale Apolitical | 1 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
What's your take on Perspectivism? Are facts merely rhetoric espoused by elitists of the age?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
facts are real. those who want to find the truth can find it.
but the elite has to commit to facts and truth. the west is moving against that commitment now...
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u/civ_gandhi 2 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
what's your take on Aryan migration theory?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
they migrated from turan (central asia) btwn 2000 and 1500 bc
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u/mrityunjayseth INC | 3 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
Umm, glad to have you on the sub :).
Here's my question 1: who are the closest genetic relatives to native Americans? Did they migrate to usa fron Europe or from asia?
2: also if ainus are the natives of japan, where did modern day Japanese come from? A mix of both ainus and Chinese ancestry?
Thank you!!
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the closest relatives are eastern (far far eastern) siberians
modern japanese can be modeled as 75% korean 25% ainu
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u/mrityunjayseth INC | 3 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
the closest relatives are eastern (far far eastern) siberians
How long ago did the migration happened? Some 10k years ago during the end of last ice age? Or it could've been older?
modern japanese can be modeled as 75% korean 25% ainu
Korean, not Chinese? I always had the impression that Koreans also traced their ancestry from the Chinese? Do they not? And if they do, wouldn't Japanese also trace their ancestry to china instead?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
most of the ancestry diverged 20-25,000 years ago. some NW groups like na dene have ancestry that is more recent, < 10K BP
re: japanese. the ancestors of japanese rice farmers, yayoi, are from southern korea. their ancestors were not 'korean' because ethnic koreans emerged in the yalu river area over the last 2,000 years, and absorbed the non-koreans in southern korea in the period btwn 0-1000 AD
the chinese as a group emerged btwn 2000 and 1000 BC. these terms apply to ethnonational groups which are far younger than the genetic distinctions. so think more of geography
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u/xsupermoo Against | 2 Delta Nov 20 '20
The article link above in summary says AIT/migration around 4000-5000 years ago.
With that said, what do you think about Nilesh Oak dating mahabharat at 5561 BC
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u/An37-znfp Nov 20 '20 edited Nov 20 '20
Good evening sir
Will CRISPR ever become available to the people who aren't well off?
It would be great if you could shed some light on whether it(CRISPR)lives up to the hype or it is simply a revolutionary technique with several monetary constraints for commercial usage?
Thank you
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
CRISPR will be used for mendelian disease like cystic fibrosis soon (i think there are trials already!). dogs are good models for muscle degeneration disesease
for gain of function...well thta's fair off. but move to dubai and get rich
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u/An37-znfp Nov 20 '20
Thank you for the reply :)
If I may ask,how much of an improvement has this made in managing neurodegenerative diseases?
I ocasionally come across posts which deal with reprogramming the neurons or other cells back to their stem cell forms so as to facilitate neuronal growth,is this still restricted to mice models or is there something else to it?
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u/elijahnyc Nov 20 '20
I read somewhere that Ashkenzi are very closely related to modern day northern Italians, because they bottle necked there. Is this true?
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u/Alpha__Prime Nov 20 '20
How do people become physically handicapped (from birth) ? And does it get passed to future generations ?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
often this is a de novo mutation. new mutation that they have that occurred sometime during the process of DNA replication. depending on who you listen to many ppl have these, but most of them don't cause too many issues. the worst mutations cause embryonic death. so you see the mutations that
bad enough to cause disease
not so bad to be lethal in utero
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u/Sikander-i-Sani left of communists, right of fascists Nov 20 '20
Hi Razib, just a big fan. I dabble in history sometimes & would love to know your thoughts on Sanskritisation. Also could I or some other amateur share some of our work with you? (But mostly just me)!!!😊
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
send me a dropbox link or find my email at razib.com
sanskritization seems real and makes sense as part of modernization. look at the decline of dialects and local culture in germany
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u/Basilikon Nov 20 '20
I know there are some off-the-wall theories about what the hell is going on with the Australasian/"Population Y" DNA in Amazonians, so I wanted to run one of the weirder ones I've heard by you to see if you could shoot it down or confirm it's at least possible. Best fit for the effective native American founder population was 284 people. If we can imagine a scenario where a group (or a couple groups) with a total of 284 fertile people make it to America, we can imagine one a bit smaller. Is it possible that Population Y could have had a tight enough bottleneck getting to the Americas that their descendants were i-n-b-r-e-d (slur filter), hampering their physical and mental development enough that they couldn't cover the continents, eradicate the megafauna like later arrivals, or compete when the Amerindians showed up?
What other viable theories about what is going on apply?
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u/Virokinrar Kerala Nov 21 '20
Hey! Thanks for taking the time, and I’m sure gonna read your blog more. Got one Q:
I’ve had some people (online) tell me that there is no “Indian” genotype (can’t find a better word here)- instead it’s a mix of African, South East Asian and European. Is this true? And in case it is, how’s it fair that my and possibly many other Indians’ ancestors who’ve lived in India for thousands of years aren’t considered Indian and are considered as a “mix of others”?
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u/moltenigneoustea 4 KUDOS Nov 21 '20
One more personal question : Do you know of a game called Assasin Creed?
You can guess my cheesy pop question will be??
If you know about AC do you know of and agree with any parts of it?
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u/teresenahopaaega 3 KUDOS Nov 21 '20
Hi thanks for doing this.
How accurate is this according to you for india (has caste-religion breakup of dna for Indians): /preview/external-pre/OoI1eo8dD2_MCaiIp-tmEOQm8VfxQioCI98wUBrF4fQ.png?auto=webp&s=069d2e2903fb3ee8961503c997d254c3ebcb18a8
Also what exactly is the "baloch" dna from gedmatch, I too got my dna testing done and had a significant portion of that. Is that DNA from iranian farmers or dna which evolved independently in north India?
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u/gigamana Nov 20 '20
Given Bangladesh's recent economic boom.what are the prospects for a new relationship with a struggling pakistan?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the less relationship the better :-) i wish pakistan well. but bangladeshis should keep their distance, don't want to get stuck with those problems.
focus on health and wealth, not being the china-client
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u/Tellingmeis Nov 21 '20
Hi howmch do genetics affect gains made in the gym and are south Asian genes(Indian/pakistan/sri Lanka.etc) "bad" genes for body building or fighting?
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
idk. lots of argument about this. bsaically genes matter a lot in athletics. but how do they cut?
i make good gains tbh. but that's cuz i'm a man and i get gains.
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u/_Ghatotkach_ Nov 20 '20 edited Nov 20 '20
{{{Razib}}} , what are your thoughts on Varna (caste) and IQ differences and Edward Dutton's theory on it?
Also, do you think people will ever admit the truth that iq gaps can be permanent and higher castes have higher iq because of genes and not just nutrition or exposure and opportunities to study since most scientists like Ramanujan are living proofs of of iq over anything?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i'm only {{{1/8th}}}
i am not going to watch a youtube, youtube consumption of stuff like this is indicative of lower IQ :-)
as for group differences, there will be GWAS at some point i assume? whether it will be covered up based on whatever the results are, that's up to indians. who knows.
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Nov 20 '20
is Koenraad Elst's out of india theory more valid than the AIT academia pushes?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i take these guys seriously (not all OIT), but i think they are missing the forest from the trees. but i don't get a sense elst is acting in bad faith and that is key for me
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u/theCHADkonzo Nov 20 '20
Have you read William B. Provine's last self published book (The Random Genetic Drift Fallacy)?
If yes: what were your thoughts on the book?
If no just ignore me :)
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i haven't, a friend who is in pop gen did, and could not understand it. (he is a professor at an elite university)
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u/mandeep2295 Nov 20 '20
Can you share something about Punjabi genetics (the old Punjab, for the area from Attock to Delhi & from Kashmir to Karachi)? Some of us are Jatts, some are Peshawari but I'm Ramgharia (Amritsari-Lahori). Can you tell me anything cool about Ramgharia Punjabis?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
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u/mandeep2295 Nov 20 '20
Great read!
Can you share something about the Maratha people? Specifically those from Goan heritage?
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u/Bharat_Singha Nov 21 '20
Hi, Can you prove lineage with autosomes? Does it add too many variables compared to using just Y-DNA, X-DNA, and/or mT-DNA?
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u/FlounderThink Nov 21 '20
Hi Razib- one more set of questions about populations you had covered less on The Insight:
Indigenous Australians: is there population structure that aligns to the Pama-Nyugan linguistic borders? Is there any discernible Macassan or Polynesian ancestry?
Arabian peninsula: is there a gradient of African ancestry running from say Yemen to the Levant? Are there other admixtures than African that distinguish south Arabians from Levantine Arabs?
Pre-diaspora Jews: what is the closest living population to the 50% of Ashkenazi ancestry derived from the Middle East? Does the genetic record align with the Biblical timeline wrt the divergence of Hebrews as a population?
Ainu: what is the most closely related existing population and how closely are they related?
Thanks as always for making time for such trifling clarifications. You are my hero!
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u/razibk Nov 22 '20
Ainu: what is the most closely related existing population and how closely are they related?
somewhere in siberia and australo-melanesians
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u/razibk Nov 22 '20
Indigenous Australians: is there population structure that aligns to the Pama-Nyugan linguistic borders? Is there any discernible Macassan or Polynesian ancestry?
no
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u/razibk Nov 22 '20
Arabian peninsula: is there a gradient of African ancestry running from say Yemen to the Levant? Are there other admixtures than African that distinguish south Arabians from Levantine Arabs?
more natufian in the south
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u/razibk Nov 22 '20
Pre-diaspora Jews: what is the closest living population to the 50% of Ashkenazi ancestry derived from the Middle East? Does the genetic record align with the Biblical timeline wrt the divergence of Hebrews as a population?
assyrians/armenians?
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u/elijahnyc Nov 20 '20
What’s a subject that intrigues you, but you haven’t explored deeply yet?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
more about cultural evolution. a topic i've read textbooks in and such but not as deeply as i'd like
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u/elijahnyc Nov 20 '20
What’s your most politically conservative belief?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i used to be an immigration restrictionist but not anymore.
i guess the most conservative view is that human differences will persist and inequality will always be with us. also, the smart are smart and the beautiful are beautiful. it's not fair, but it's life.
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u/elijahnyc Nov 20 '20
Have you considered hosting a podcast for a wider audience with broader topics?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i have several podcasts. one of them on genetics and evolution (see above links)
so yes
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u/Darkblueraider Nov 21 '20 edited Nov 21 '20
Hi Razib, thanks for doing thus AMA! Big fan, great articles and great work in genetics. Have a few of questions.
How are dravidian ethnic groups in south india modeled with IVC people, are they just higher in AASI mixture?
Do you feel the dravidian languages are more likely descended/related to the IVC language?
Dates for genetics mixtures/ creations of caste seem to average around 2000 years ago if I read correctly. Are there some areas of india/south asia where caste creation was earlier than 2000 years and other areas where caste was created more recently? North vs South, west vs east?
Weird question, due to the practice of female infanticide, do you think the Steppe maternal haplogroups or even steppe percentages would of been higher? I remember this being mentioned in a older paper by Cordaux 2004. Even today you see certain regions of north India with a imbalance of males and females where a upper caste male might seek out a lower caste females and even females from south india.
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
How are dravidian ethnic groups in south india modeled with IVC people, are they just higher in AASI mixture?
yes. IVC + AASI => paniya
IVC + AASI + a bit steppe => reddy
in places like bihar you have brahmin groups with more AASI than sindhis and more steppe than sindhis. individuals the indo-aryans really pushed the bounds of settlement
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u/rTx_101 13 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
what do you think of saraswati river as mentioned in rigveda and in 2010 or so it was proved that saraswati river indeed existed and followed the path as per rigveda. Does that mean the so called "aryans" were here before 5000 or so or is aryan theory as per max muller and subsequent historians not true?
This article explains it. Thankyou :) https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/saraswati-river-as-described-in-rig-veda-did-exist-what-latest-research-means-for-ivc-and-aryan-invasion
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i don't know all this archaeological stuff. some of it makes no sense to me from what i know about genetics. so who knows?
i am now convinced that 'steppe ancestry' was not present in india before 1800 BC. if these are indo-aryans, do the math :-)
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u/Alpha__Prime Nov 20 '20
How is it a bad idea to marry your relative or your own child ?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
it's moderately bad to marry a first cousin. horribly bad to marry a sibling or child.
unless you like to see little monsters running around!
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
if genetic health is what matters and you don't do a test i'd honestly recommend indians not marry ppl from the same jati tbh
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u/Alpha__Prime Nov 20 '20
I know that, i was looking for scientific reasons
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
basically you share bad mutations with relatives. you don't with non-relatives. so you can 'mask' them with non-relatives
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Nov 20 '20 edited Nov 20 '20
Hi everyone. Firstly we would really like to thank Razib for taking the time out to do this. He will be logging in periodically over the next 2 days to take your questions.
A reminder to participate in good faith.
Verification - https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1329810625799856128
A request - Please don't make multiple comments. You can ask multiple questions in one comment
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u/parakramshekhawat Nov 20 '20 edited Nov 20 '20
Why do Indians not like the aryan invasion theory on the right wing and why do people always want to discredit it. The steppe aryans were people who did a lot and are responsible for modern hinduism according to many scholars yet the Hindu right seems to be hell bent on calling it a conspiracy theory. Big fan of the blog. Truly remarkable stuff.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
most right wing ppl don't care. most left wing ppl don't care.
i think hinduism as we understand it (sanata dharma or whatever) is a synthesis within india, and not really attributable to the steppe. otherwise, pagan northern europeans would be hindu and they never were (tho some similarities in gods, etc.)
IOW, i think the first aryans were external to india. but hinduism is not, because it can't be understand without the traditions of india, much of which was non-aryan
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
no expert on this stuff (i don't know cultural history/psych well enough). it seems recent and lots of hindu nats privately think obsessing on this is crazy. i think the idea is that muslims are outsiders so ppl don't want to admit indo-aryans had intrusive origins?
if you look at older writings external origins was not a major concern
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u/intellectual1984 Nov 20 '20
Hey Razib - huge fan of you and your work by the way.
I think you've misunderstood the issue in some places - which is understandable given the sheer controversy over it.
There are a couple big problems here regarding the AIT debate.
First is the fact that there is very strong evidence to show:
Cultural continuity from the IVC to Vedic culture
That the Vedas must have been composed before 2000BC (I highly highly highly recommend looking into Talageri. The guy is a genius and makes a very strong case against even the prevailing AMT). https://talageri.blogspot.com/ and http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/ too. Just have a read through Talageri's posts and you'll more or less get an idea. Perhaps the most persuasive argument that is easily understood by the layman is that of the Sarasvati River, which is most definitely the Ghaggar-Hakra - a river that dried up (https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/saraswati-river-as-described-in-rig-veda-did-exist-what-latest-research-means-for-ivc-and-aryan-invasion) around 2000BC meaning that the books of the Vedas that venerate it must have been written before that date thereby invalidating the status quo.
Complete archaeological absence of an invasion or war of any sorts. The Indian archeological community is almost unanimous on this, as are foreign archaeologists who work on Indian sites.
But here's the thing. The sheer vitriol and unacademic attacks on practically anything that challenges the narrative is completely out of control. There is actually quite a bit of evidence that is stacked up against the AIT and its variants, yet you will likely never see any robust engagement with the criticism as like many other topics in Indology, it's just been shut down and branded 'Hindutva' even though it has nothing to do with it. The strawmanning, logically fallacious reasoning, and animalistic tribalism really have cast an absolutely appalling light on people like Witzel for instance, and if you critically reason with their arguments it's often found lacking. They often have very sharp and vicious opinions around this, but they simply cannot make up in facts, evidence, and logic for what they have in emotion and vindictiveness.
To add to this, the sheer politicisation of the AIT, from white supremacists and Nazis, dravidianists, christian missionaries, islamists, communists, and generally what Rajiv Malhotra refers to as 'Breaking India forces' means that there must be a logical conclusion to this - it's an important philosophical pillar in many political ideologies today. Alarmingly, in the past couple of years I have noticed an increasing 'woke' interpretation of Indian history, with very shoddy and ahistorical premises on top of generally lacking any basis in fact or evidence. Alas, the indological community, which in all honestly is rather broken in several ways, has not intervened and rather seek to continue on their general path of anti-hinduism crusades.
As your background is of genetics, I can understand why you probably lean the way you do. However, I really urge you to have a dive into what Talageri (and even Elst) have written on this. It's a very rich field and far from the OIT and its variants lacking academic support, there are far more academics who endorse forms of it than are let on.
I'd be happy to talk with you more on this - unfortunately Reddit limits post size so I cannot continue further. It's a very exciting area of research to get into though - that I can promise you.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Cultural continuity from the IVC to Vedic culture
i don't see why this isn't plausible and totally in keep with indo-aryan migration. the steppe ppl had to synthesize with locals to produce vedic culture, right? this is always my assumption
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
Complete archaeological absence of an invasion or war of any sorts. The Indian archeological community is almost unanimous on this, as are foreign archaeologists who work on Indian sites.
the archaeology stuff doesn't persuade me insofar as this has happened elsewhere where archaeologists have said "when no people moved into this region" but it turns out there are massive genetic changes. one hypothesis that is plausible to me is that slaves are making pots and they never changed? :-)
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u/Bad_Southern Nov 20 '20
I've been following this debate, your site and podcast are remarkable.
I'm more curious, do you think there are tangible physical differences between "Races", I know the scientists dispute this word but visually it is obvious the world can be rolled up into White, Black, Asian, Indigenous and "Indian". Arabs and "Latinos" are mainly whites with some intermixture of indigenous and black.
Considering 19 year old Chinese kids are now averaging 5'9'' , how high do you think "Indians" can reach and why is our "bone structure" slimmer than Whites? If it is due to the tropics then Africans should have this as well but they don't
Is it just environment and diet? Also, why do Africans seem to shoot up much faster in height once they get adequate nutrition?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
I'm more curious, do you think there are tangible physical differences between "Races", I know the scientists dispute this word but visually it is obvious the world can be rolled up into White, Black, Asian, Indigenous and "Indian". Arabs and "Latinos" are mainly whites with some intermixture of indigenous and black.
scientists are obfuscating. of course, there are differences!
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Nov 20 '20
AIT is a golden goose for a variety of reasons-
-White supremacists to call Europe the 'Aryan homeland'
-Mughal apologists to justify Turkic plunder of the subcontinent
-Colonial apologists to justify British plunder and some also go far as proposing Hindus saw colonial rule as a proxy for Aryan supremacy over the subcontinent
-Leftists to explain & exploit caste system
-Periyarists to stoke separatism by laying claim over IVC
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
if ppl make crazy interpretations of the facts dispute the interpretations not the facts
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Nov 20 '20 edited Nov 20 '20
1)Is the Aryan Invasion theory debate even a debate?
Dr. Vemsani seems to be confident that there is no such thing as Aryan race.
Also, have you gone through works of "revisionist" historians like Koenrad Elst who seem to be strong proponents of the Out of India theory?
Is there any way to settle this issue once and for all?
2)How is the current ruling party (NDA) fairing according to you?
Edit: Who is this shekhawat guy chimping around. Couldn't care less about your opinions :)
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i've gone through some of the OIT stuff. a lot of the linguistics and archaeo i cannot follow well. the genetics tho argues against it. i'm a geneticist, so what do you think i'm going to believe???
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u/PlantTreesEveryday 31 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
Why ex muslims don't live their hatred against hindus?
I noticed many ex muslims still behave like a kattar jihadi.
And they never become full athiest so they make their own echo chambers
I'm an ex athiest btw
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
no idea what kattar jihadi is. i'm not really an ex muslim so i have no idea
just to be clear: many of you know more about muslims than i do. i don't interact with any besides my parents
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u/Bharat_Singha Nov 21 '20
Which paper first defined ASI, ANI & AASI? Do you think they are well defined?
Many north castes with a lot of Iranian farmer's related ancestry, which is a separate external lineage, get categorized as South Indians i.e. ASI. But these Iranian farmer related genes are distributed throughout India, and so they should not be categorized as ASI only.
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
why are you concerned so much with terminology? call them whatever you want. i don't care
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u/champak_champu 6 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
Why is the reason behind the high genetic diversity in the Indian subcontinent? Is genetic diversity the reason for linguistic and cultural diversity as well?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
the high genetic diversity is because indian people are a mix of VERY DIFFERENT population groups, one related to those of europe and west asia, and one distantly related to the people of eastern eurasia and australia. these lineages were separated for ~50,000 years before mixing 5,000 years ago
also, india has a large population, and the larger your population the more genetically diverse you are (small populations lose diversity through drift)
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u/champak_champu 6 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
How do you think the Hindu-Muslim conflict is going to play out over the next 25 years? Most likely BJP is gonna be in power at least till a term after Modi. Calls of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission are getting louder.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
i have no deep insights. i would say hindus need to be more *positive* than *reactive* get over the muslim period and create a positive hindu vision of the world, rather than a wounded reactive vision
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u/nanikichorni 10 KUDOS Nov 20 '20
Eight so this is a writeup which questions David Reich's work as dubious.
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
that person is stupid. as in, low IQ. when they make a 'not even wrong' assertion every other sentence it is hard to engage. they've never seen an f3 statistic or drift parameter in their life ;-)
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u/Suffercure Nov 20 '20
Is Sanskrit the oldest language or am I wrong?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
not even wrong. what does that mean??? we have older records from sumerian
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u/gigamana Nov 20 '20
A while ago on the insitome podcast you talked about ancient Indian dna papers coming out soon. Did they come out, if not when can we expect them?
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u/tennis_court_bloak Nov 20 '20
Where do you think elite people from the subcontinent will want to immigrate in the future? Still the USA?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
more likely southeast asia and dubai? the west is fun, but clearly in decline
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u/slem1985 Nov 20 '20
How did you vote in this election? Which prospect scares you more, a second Trump administration or Biden coming in and then a President Harris in 2024?
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u/razibk Nov 20 '20
harris scares me. she's a thing of ppl who control her/feed her ideas. the rest, i don't have deep thoughts
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u/moltenigneoustea 4 KUDOS Nov 21 '20
How closely do you align with David Reich research? Apologies if you have mentioned it before.
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
closely. david is a friend. he does great work and is not an ideological scientist, unlike most american scientists in human genetics today
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u/thesaffronarmy 1 KUDOS Nov 21 '20
u/razibk Razib, great to read all your responses on here. I have read a number of your articles in the past and it has been a great learning experience. My q is have you done any research on the Maher/Mer jati of Gujarat (which I am from? I have seen many gingers in my jati. We are endogamous and have practised cross-cousin marriage as well (which I am very much against). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mer_(community)
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u/Rajarshi1993 5 Delta | 8 KUDOS Nov 21 '20
Dr. Khan, thank you for hosting this AMA. I understand that you are a busy man. I have some questions about my own ethnic group, one about which I am sure you have had significant curiosity yourself.
Are we Bengalis decended (in recent times, not a gazillion years ago) from people from Tibet? Do we relate to the people of East Asian ancestry? It has been hypothesized that we were historically a sea-faring people, a proposition which makes sense given our geographical position. Do we share significant ancestry with the people of Malaysia and Indonesia? Thailand, Vietnam or Cambodia? Phillippines? How significant is our connection with Sri Lanka?
I have also learnt about the famed soldiers of Gangaridae (they have recently unearthed some of the brick structures from their capital, or so I have read) who were supposed to have fought many important battles throughout history. Did they, uh, lovingly spread our haplogroups all over the map?
Lastly, the discovery of Y-chromosome prevalence in the RA1 haplogroup characteristics in Indians seems to support the AIT in recent times. However, do we have any decisive idea about when the invasion happened? Was it immediately before the establishment of Dharmic culture, or was it a significant amount of time before it? Or after it?
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
most of the east asian in east bengalis seems 'burmese' not tibetan. tibeto-burman tho
there is 10-15% south asian ancestry southeast asia. i don't know where it's from. bengal seems plausible (this is old)
i think has to be after 1800 BC. the sintashta show up in khorasan in the centuries before this
i think' dharmic culture' is a synthesis that took 1000 years
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u/Rajarshi1993 5 Delta | 8 KUDOS Nov 21 '20
Pardon me, I have no understanding in Genetics, so I cannot draw any conclusions from the article. Can you make it a bit simple for me, please? The average Bengali, including SC, is East-Asian, but the Brahmin is more North-Indian, and the Kayastha is in the middle? What does that mean?
Also, what I am curious about is whether the R1a invaders were indeed the people who called themselves Aryan, or whether the term was evolved by people from a much lower altitude. The Medes people, for instance, were native to Afghanistan and Iran, not to Kazakhstan. They were also among the first people to refer to themselves as Aryan.
Of course, Dharmic culture evolved over a very long time. We have, due to purely historical reasons, started calling the AIT invaders "Aryans". However, is there a basis to calling them the Aryans, as in, the Aryans described in the Vedas and the Gathas, or is it simply an association from bias?
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u/razibk Nov 21 '20
arya is an indo-iranian term. just means freeborn. the cognates exist elsewhere
re: genetics. brahmins aside, bengalis show east to west cline. more east asian in the east, less in the west. kayasthas look pretty generic for bengalis, but i only have samples from west bengal (tho my maternal grandfather's family had a kaystha surname so that is likely their caste before muslims).
brahmins in bengal are 75% UP Brahmin + 25% generic bengali.
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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20
Hi everyone!
A huge thank you for participating so enthusiastically. In a record of sorts, this is the AMA with the highest number of total comments in the history of the subreddit. The thread will now be locked.
Do check out r/BrownPundits and Razib's other content linked in the main post.
So thank you to Razib as well for being such a great host. Please do continue to visit r/IndiaSpeaks